History in Vogue discussion

...the thing one's so certain of in advance: can it ever make one's heart beat as wildly

Archer defies May and her family's ever-more thinly veiled suspicions, and goes to meet Ellen.

Each time you happen to me all over again

Their manipulations only serve to create a perfected image of his love for Ellen in his mind. His anger at her immediate mention of May, prompts Archer to try to hurt her by mentioning the secretary, but in doing so he finds there was no truth to the rumors.

A stolen kiss isn't what I want. ...what I want of you is so much more than an hour or two every now and then, with wastes of thirsty waiting between, that I can sit perfectly still beside you, like this, with that other vision in my mind, just quietly trusting to it to come true

The only reality to me is this...

I want somehow to get away with you into a world where words like that... won't exist. Where we shall be simply two human beings who love each other, who are the whole of life to each other; and nothing else on earth will matter

In his love for Ellen, he's willing to risk the ruin their choice to be together will bring. But Ellen refuses him again, knowing the reality of the life he hopes for them. Angered at the belief that she doesn't care for him as he does her, he leaves her to go back to her aunt's alone.

Mrs Mingott goes against the family's wishes to part with Ellen and keep her from Archer, bringing her back and reinstating her income. And in her bravery, Ellen publicly supports Regina Beaufort, the way the rest of the family wouldn't support her. Archer intends to leave May and follow Ellen wherever she wishes to be, when he finds that she has returned to New York. Though he finds the idea of a common affair distasteful, he feels relief that if there is no life for them away, that if she cares for him, at least in time they can be together there.

To have you here, you mean—in reach and yet out of reach. To meet you in this way, on the sly? It's the very reverse of what I want. I told you the other day what I wanted.

Ellen had agreed to return to New York to be near him, but to ensure by their being able to see one another, he would remain faithful to May. She offers to be with him, but only if she goes back to her husband afterward, allowing them a moment, but refusing to destroy the people she believes care for her and helped her. He refuses to be with her if it means letting her go. But hurt by the belief that she doesn't believe their being together worth the sacrifice, he asks her to come to him.

His heart beat with awe: he felt that he had never before beheld love visible.

He returns home to May. Knowing he had been with Ellen, she is suddenly openly affectionate, and the next evening wears her bridal gown to the opera. The image of the girl he remembers makes him want her forgiveness. But also his freedom. Archer decides to tell may the truth, but she stops him, feigning ignorance and tells him that none of it mattered now that Ellen had decided to return to Europe. She had written to May that afternoon, with a note to let her friends know she couldn't stay.

...and I wanted her to know that you and I were the same—in all our feelings. She understood my wishing to tell her this. I think she understands everything.

Archer goes to Mrs Mingott, who tells him she has no idea why Ellen was really leaving. Meanwhile, May and her family use their first formal dinner as a farewell to Ellen. She sent back the key she was to use to meet him, but Archer was still determined to follow her to Europe.

And then it came over him, in a vast flash made up of many broken gleams, that to all of them he and Madame Olenska were lovers, lovers in the extreme sense peculiar to foreign vocabularies

He realises during dinner the extent gone to by all their family to keep them apart. But he only loves her more when he sees her again. Even with their being watched throughout the evening, he manages to intimate that he means to come to her in Paris.

After the dinner he starts to tell May the truth again, that he wants to leave, but she stops him with the news of her pregnancy. And that she had spoken to Ellen, before she knew for certain.

When he thought of Ellen Olenska it was abstractly, serenely, as one might think of some imaginary beloved in a book or a picture: she had become the composite vision of all that he had missed. That vision, faint and tenuous as it was, had kept him from thinking of other women

Twenty-six years later, Archer sits thinking over his life, and the remembrance of the love for a vague image never realised. May, who like her family had never realised life moved on, died from pneumonia caring for their youngest son. Their daughter married a Chiverse. Their eldest son, Dallas, became an architect and was engaged to Julius Beaufort's illegitimate daughter, Fanny. The children kept their opinions from May, and the family never travelled farther than Newport. Their sole trip to Europe had missed France.

...and one by one the pictures burst on him in their half-forgotten splendour, filling his soul with the long echoes of beauty. After all, his life had been too starved....

Just before his wedding, Dallas and Archer travel to Paris for his job, the first time Archer had seen France since Ellen left. On their last afternoon, Dallas tells Archer that he promised Fanny he would visit Ellen, and she is expecting them. He knew she was the love of Archer's life, because May had told him that once, when she asked you to, you'd given up the thing you most wanted.

During that time he had been living with his youthful memory of her; but she had doubtless had other and more tangible companionship

Perhaps she too had kept her memory of him as something apart; but if she had, it must have been like a relic in a small dim chapel

The reality of Ellen's life in Paris and the things she'd experienced, create doubts in Archer's mind that she could have continued to love him as he had her. In the end he walks away, choosing to live with his memories of her.

• Now that the story is over, what are your final thoughts on Archer, Ellen, and May

...and rose from her seat just as Marguerite fell into Faust's arms

• what is the significance of this scene from Faust as Archer and May leave the opera, first from Archer's point of view, and for the story overall

But in Archer's little world no one laughed at a wife deceived, and a certain measure of contempt was attached to men who continued their philandering after marriage

• What does this say about their society, and who truly made the rules

• At first glance, Archer and May were considered the perfect match - young, suitable, yet happy rather than the business contracts most marriages were. But did May really love Archer? She claimed her willingness to let him go during their engagement, but at her first suspicions she hastened the wedding she had been in no hurry for. Would she really have let him go

• Do you believe Ellen and Archer could have been happy. From either of their points of view

• How do you feel about that ending...

* the closing of the shutters at the end is one of my favorite images in all literature

• Archer once told Ellen he was much more of her making than she was of his. How did Ellen change Archer in the end

Edith Wharton never ends one of her books happily. That's why she sticks with us. Books with happy endings are satisfying, and then we forget them. The end of this book is frustrating, and full of what-ifs. It haunts us, like all her books. It's probably why I ended Wealth and Privilege the way I did - I love Edith Wharton and her unwillingness to provide closure. Life rarely gives us closure. She gives us honesty as part of her art.

Jeanette wrote: "Edith Wharton never ends one of her books happily. That's why she sticks with us. Books with happy endings are satisfying, and then we forget them. The end of this book is frustrating, and full ..."

I love Edith Wharton, she's one of my favorite authors, and your post is one of the greatest reasons why. I did a study in college literature that it is the uncertain or even unhappy endings that stay with us, in books or films. In a way, they provide the most realism.

Welcome to the group, by the way. You're welcome to introduce yourself in the welcome thread, and post about your book in the genre threads and add it to our bookshelf. It sounds intriguing. I'm an aspiring novelist, an it's the same time period I'm writing about, - mostly set in England, with some connection to American financial issues.

Marie wrote: "Jeanette wrote: "Edith Wharton never ends one of her books happily. That's why she sticks with us. Books with happy endings are satisfying, and then we forget them. The end of this book is frust..."

Thank you for the welcome! I'm a novice at this Goodreads thing. I will indeed attempt to add my book to your bookshelf. From the sound of it, I do think you'd enjoy it, and since you know your Edith Wharton, you'll "get" it thoroughly! And you'll love the sequel I'm finishing - Lawrence Seldon makes a cameo appearance ;-)

• Now that the story is over, what are your final thoughts on Archer, Ellen, and May
I think Archer is in love with the idea of being in love. He loves the romantic courtly love he sees in operas and reads in novels. Is that real life? Real love? I don't think so. I think he's bored and confused about what he really wants.

May wants a life like her mother's. It's all she knows and can aspire to and she wants it with Archer. He's well-respected, wealthy, polite and distantly kind. She stakes her claim on him more than once. She wanted his love in return and the best she could have was to have him with her, married, and she wanted to be sure he was sure he wanted to be married to her. I think deep down inside, he was too conventional to really want to run away with Ellen. He was attracted to her because she was exotic and different. I felt May was too boring to really like but I felt bad for her that everyone was whispering about her husband.

I felt bad for Ellen too. She was stuck in a situation where her husband did who knows what and she found it intolerable. She wanted boring convention - or so she thought. I think she didn't really though, as much as Archer did. They're opposites and there was the initial excitement of attraction and danger but in the long run it wouldn't have lasted.

• what is the significance of this scene from Faust as Archer and May leave the opera, first from Archer's point of view, and for the story overall

It tells us what Archer's idea of romantic love is. The scene where he picks up a woman's parasol and brings it to his lips assuming it's Ellen's is so completely silly. He's so taken with the opera that he confuses it with real life. It foreshadows where the story is going.

But in Archer's little world no one laughed at a wife deceived, and a certain measure of contempt was attached to men who continued their philandering after marriage

• What does this say about their society, and who truly made the rules

The women make the rules of etiquette but they can't control the actions, only the outcome, of indiscreet liasons.

• At first glance, Archer and May were considered the perfect match - young, suitable, yet happy rather than the business contracts most marriages were. But did May really love Archer? She claimed her willingness to let him go during their engagement, but at her first suspicions she hastened the wedding she had been in no hurry for. Would she really have let him go

I think May loved Archer in her own way. She showed flashes of passion and shrewdness which is what he wanted but she was too conventional to really fully break out of the conventional mold her mother created her. She may have been willing to let him go at first but not once they were officially engaged.

• Do you believe Ellen and Archer could have been happy. From either of their points of view

No. They're too different. Archer is so incredibly traditional in his outlook and experiences. He only thinks he wants Ellen because he's bored and she's different. Maybe if May had shown a little more passion and intelligence, he wouldn't have been so bored. Or maybe he wouldn't have liked it in his wife. The fact he stayed with May shows that he wasn't fully committed to Ellen and the fact she left shows she was too unconventional for New York.

• How do you feel about that ending...
I didn't like the May died young without becoming the woman she showed hints of being. Otherwise I actually liked the ending. At first I was disappointed but the more I thought about it, the more it fit. I wanted Ellen to have a happily ever after and maybe she did. Archer though, he has his idealized, romanticized memories and to break that illusion may or may not have helped him come to terms with his feelings about his life with May.

• Archer once told Ellen he was much more of her making than she was of his. How did Ellen change Archer in the end

She forced him to face up to the reality of his marriage and his feelings. He was kind to her and considerate of her feelings and showed her that men could be friends and even lovers without wanting sexual favors in return.

QNPoohBear wrote: "• Now that the story is over, what are your final thoughts on Archer, Ellen, and May
I think Archer is in love with the idea of being in love. He loves the romantic courtly love he sees in operas a..."

You mention the significance of the opera, and then don't really go into it... according to a music historian, The Flower Song is considered a fluffy, trite song in an opera otherwise full of much more weighty and respected music. The fact that the fashionable set of New York talked through the opera, but stopped to listen to The Flower Song is a scathing commentary about New York fashionable society. They ignore and belittle brilliance, but are attracted to useless garbage.

Thanks Jeanette for that insight. I don't know anything about opera.

QNPoohBear wrote: "Thanks Jeanette for that insight. I don't know anything about opera."

I happened to be fortunate enough to have a music major in my English class in college. It's a subtle tidbit that only an opera buff would know! We were all thrilled to get that piece of information.