THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

This thread is open for members who wish to read and discuss any book or books covering the Atlantic Ocean Campaign of WW2, from 1939 to 1945, air or sea.

It's the morning of 1st march so I have picked up my book for this month's theme read:


by Geirr H Haarr

I hope to see a few other members join in this theme read and will be interested to see what books they bring with them.

AR: I am working on one and have another from the library, so I'll be joining you in 4-5 days with

A Navy Maverick Comes of Age by Alexander Moffat.

Excellent, look forward to chatting with you about aspects of this campaign and quotes from your book.

Hi Rick I'll be joining once I finish my current read - not sure what to read though although I might have a crack at this: Max Horton and the Western Approaches by W.S. Chalmers

A perfect book for the theme read Geevee!

Here is some interesting information in regards to the German ships Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst from my current book:

" ... Redesign took time, though, and only in May and June of 1935 were the keels of battleships Gneisenau and Scharnhorst laid down at Deutsche Werft in Kiel and Kriegsmarine-Werft in Wilhelmshaven, respectively. Their 35-cm gun-turrets could not be completed in time and, to avoid delays, it was decided to mount three upgraded triple 28-cm turrets as a temporary solution. Both turret types had the same base diameter and neither draught nor stability of the ships would be adversely affected through a later upgrade. After the start of the war, there was never an opportunity to take the ships out of service for refit, and they were destined to spend their careers with 28-cm turrets - over-armoured and under-gunned."

I had not read that before (I'm more of a land based reader) so I found that quite interesting and I wonder if Germany had waited to fit the Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst with 35-cm gun-turrets what impact that would have had on their subsequent career/actions at sea?

got my copy on order should arrive today sometime... as soon as I finish my current book ill be starting this one... looking forward to reading it it looks very interesting

Which book is that Michael?

The Vaagso Raid


currently half way though.. the Vaagso raid

once im finished this and my copy of the gathering storm arrives ill be joining the group read

I hope you enjoy The Vaagso Raid and I look forward to chatting with you further when you start your next book.

Another interesting quote from my book taking about early German destroyers:

"Questions were soon raised over the sea-keeping qualities of the new ships - the foredeck was too short and the poor lateral flare of the forward frames was an area of alarming weakness (AR's note - being a landlubber I have no idea what that means). In spite of extensive use of light alloy, the large superstructure and heavy armament gave the Zerstorer a top-weight issue. Even in moderate seas, the ships were unstable, reducing their combat efficiency significantly as they had to reduce speed to avoid structural damage in heavy seas. Of particular concern was the manhandling of 26-kg 12.7-cm shells and the separate cordite cases on a badly rolling deck. The bows of Z1 to Z4 were rebuilt during 1938, while modifications were made on Z5 to Z8 before launch. Further improvements, including a redesign of the foreship, were introduced for Z9 to Z16, but their basic design remained similar to that of the first ships and little was achieved to alleviate the problems of poor sea-keeping and instability."

Which reminds me, I'm sure I have a copy of this book which I was supposed to read about 20 years ago!

by M.J. Whitley

I will join with: The Royal Oak Disaster

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here is some interesting information in regards to the German ships Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst from my current book:

" ... Redesign took time, though, and only in May and June of 1935 were the ..."

AR: Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst are often referred to as battleships in Western histories, although battlecruiser is a more appropriate appellation due to the limitations of the 28 cm main batteries combined with their good top speeds. The USN would call those 11 inch guns and they would have placed Gneisenau and Scharnhorst at a serious disadvantage even against the old WW I U.S. Navy battlewagons of our Atlantic Fleet in 1941 such as USS IDAHO (BB-42) or USS NEW MEXICO (BB-40). They were armed with 14 inch guns which fired 1,400 pound (640 kg) armor-piercing shells 24,000 yards (22 km). In the days of naval gunnery, throw-weight of shell was the key predictor of success in battle at sea. During WW II our heavy cruisers, such as the USS BALTIMORE-class mounted 8 inch main batteries and our newer battleships, such as the USS SOUTH DAKOTA-class, boasted nine 16 inch main guns. Those 16 inch/45 guns could throw a 2,700 pound (1,200 kg) armor-piercing projectile approx 35,000 yards (32 km). If there had been a fleet engagement between the German navy and the U.S. Atlantic Fleet, Gneisenau and Scharnhorst may have run, but they couldn’t hide.

Mike wrote: "I will join with: The Royal Oak Disaster"

Another good book by the looks of it Mike!

Thanks for that information Manyray9, much appreciated.

Mike wrote: "I will join with: The Royal Oak Disaster"

Another to the TBR list.

Gents reluctantly I may not be able to fit in this month's theme read as this arrived at m library this morning and there is a waiting list so I can't postpone it: Sean McMeekin

Let me go through my teeny-tiny library (ha!) and see what I have that I can read for this. Surely out of the rooms full of books there will be something...or maybe I need to buy more books!!!

Seeking permission to use this as an Atlantic book.
Cherbourg is pretty close!

found this one earlier in the year at a used bookstore.
it looks a little dated, 1984, but looked up the
author William Breuer, he has over 40 WW2 titles.

No problem's Carl, we are pretty relaxed on the theme reads. I have read a few of William Breuer's WW2 books, I think you will like him.

I found this account from a veteran destroyer captain quite funny, its in regards to some of the problems at the start of the war when war ship crews where filled out by Royal Navy Reserve (RNR) and Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve (RNVR):

" .... The magic of radar, for example, was entering our lives, complete with teething troubles. Seamen - who had never been to sea - were trained to operate it. The buzz got around that crossing the beam with the instrument switched on would make them impotent. Came rough weather, less superstitious operators promptly put paid to their precious instruments by being sick into them. Emergency signals went forth both to refute the impotence scare and telling Medical Research to drop the pill they were working on to keep Wrens out of trouble and get cracking on one to stop radar operators being seasick. And so on. A different war with different problems, but the same old tussle with human imperfections."

Interesting and revealing Rick thanks for posting.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this account from a veteran destroyer captain quite funny, its in regards to some of the problems at the start of the war when war ship crews where filled out by Royal Navy Reserve (RNR) an..."

So with "...telling Medical Research to drop the pill they were working on to keep Wrens out of trouble..." the Royal Navy was on the cutting edge of contraception development?

well got my delivery today.. will start reading it tomarrow

Manray9 wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this account from a veteran destroyer captain quite funny, its in regards to some of the problems at the start of the war when war ship crews where filled out by Royal..."

Seems so doesn't it!

I just started this book for the theme read: Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Aboard U-505 . The author served on the first enemy ship captured on the high seas by the US Navy since the war of 1812.

It's very readable so far. One statistic that stood out to me: Out of the approximately 37,000 trained U-boat crewmembers in World War II, only about 6,000 survived the war to return safely to their homes in Germany.

A.L. wrote: "I just started this book for the theme read: Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Aboard U-505[bookcover:Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Aboard U-505|284..."

That one is high on my want list but getting a HB is just soo expensive. May have to go for a Kindle (yuck!) edition.

Mike wrote: "A.L. wrote: "I just started this book for the theme read: Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Aboard U-505[bookcover:Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Abo..."

try the paperback edition a lot cheaper..

I'm reading the kindle edition--I bought it when it was on sale for 2 or 3 bucks. It won't look pretty on my bookshelves, but my bookshelves are starting to fill up, so that's not an entirely bad thing at my house.

Geevee wrote: "Gents reluctantly I may not be able to fit in this month's theme read as this arrived at m library this morning and there is a waiting list so I can't postpone it:[bookcover:July 1914: Countdown t..."

I look forward to your thoughts on this one Geevee - I'm about 3/4ths of the way through - it been an interesting read so far.

Will do Happy thanks - it's typical of the arrival though as I'd really looked forward to the theme read but can't let the chance go as I may not see it again for months owing to the reservations. I'll try and fit in a short theme read at the end of the month.

Geevee wrote: "Will do Happy thanks - it's typical of the arrival though as I'd really looked forward to the theme read but can't let the chance go as I may not see it again for months owing to the reservations. ..."

You could pull an "AR" and buy it, put it on the shelf and read it later?

Mike having just bought some more books on the US space programme and two volumes of NZ official history in WWII I may be on shaky ground with Mrs Geevee...mind you father's day approaches in a couple of months, so even if I read the library copy it would still look good on my shelves. My wife has added your name to those of Rick, Happy, and Manray9 and Komet as book buying conspirators ;)

fortunately i'm still on her good side.

Geevee wrote: "Mike having just bought some more books on the US space programme and two volumes of NZ official history in WWII I may be on shaky ground with Mrs Geevee...mind you father's day approaches in a cou..."

I confess. I am a book enabler.

carl wrote: "fortunately i'm still on her good side."

Carl you were one of the first my friend! Too many David Kynaston and other 1950s & 1960s book recommendations.

Hehehe! well I tried to sneak by.

In my reading so far it seems the greatest danger to the men at sea was the elements and I think this has been the case throughout history:

"At times, smaller ships had to concentrate just on surviving; some of the British destroyers with captains reluctant to slow down in the face of the weather suffered structural damage. Impulsive was one, Kelly another, resulting in time in yard and cautions from the Admiralty. The rudders of Rodney and Nelson as well as cruisers Glasgow and Southampton were damaged, apparently from a weak design that rendered them incapable of withstanding the strain of continuous zigzagging in rough seas. Several ships suffered from leaks, especially the destroyers, and time spent in the yards increased."

by Geirr H Haarr

This also made for interesting reading:



"However challenging the Prize Regulations were, many U-boat captains made an effort to follow them and there are several examples of chivalry during the first months of the conflict. Kapitanleutnant Herbert Schultze of U48, having sunk the freighter Royal Sceptre, approached the nearby Browning, hailing the position of the Sceptre to its master, Hans-Wilhelm von Dresky of U33 notified the American freighter Washington of the position of the lifeboats from Olive Grove, which he had sunk 290 miles off Fastnet on 7 September. He even ran ahead to find the lifeboats and, when he did, he fired Verey lights to guide the American to them."

A.L. wrote: "I just started this book for the theme read: Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Aboard U-505[bookcover:Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Aboard U-505|284..."

I knew Hans Goebbeler and his wife Riki, we did a few shows together in the 90s. Good man.

A.L. wrote: "I just started this book for the theme read: Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Aboard U-505[bookcover:Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Aboard U-505|284..."

I knew Hans Goebeler and his wife Riki, we did a few shows together in the 90s. Good man.

Colin wrote: "A.L. wrote: "I just started this book for the theme read: Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Aboard U-505[bookcover:Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Abo..."

That's cool, Colin! From the introductions and forewords, it sounds like the people he worked with at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry (where his u-boat is displayed) liked him a lot too.

In my read, Steel Boat, Iron Hearts: A U-Boat Crewman's Life Aboard U-505, Hans has just finished his first cruise. The first ship they hit didn't sink right away, so the U-505's captain waited until the crew were in lifeboats away from the damaged ship, then torpedoed it again. Another time, the U-505 handed over water, food, and medicine to survivors in lifeboats. For war, it sounds very humane. I guess I'm used to reading stories about Japanese subs surfacing after a hit to finish off any survivors, so to read about German subs surfacing to help survivors is surprising, in good way.

Hitler ordered that practice to stop after Reinhard Hardegen and Erich Topp both did that, and the RAF Coastal Command, knowing they were helping survivors, attacked their U-Boats, even with their own naval men nearby. The two commanders saved their subs, but the assistance ended then and there. it is believed that three other U-Boats were also lost as a result of German commanders assisting seamen, and then being attacked.

Ah, my reading is still fairly early in the war (winter/spring 1942). Thanks for that info, Colin!

Found one! I am reading Operation Drumbeat by Michael Gannon (no photo) about one particular U-boat that operated on the Atlantic Coast.

Please let me know what you think about Operation Drumbeat: Germany's U-Boat Attacks Along the American Coast in World War II, Tomi. It's on my to-read list.

I'm also reading The Gathering Storm... im about half way through chapter 16.. It is interesting to see that for the most part German U-boats were following the prize regulations... while the British were already arming their merchant ships even before the out break of hostilities.. Violation of treaty.. Lemp in U-30 attacking and sinking S.S. Athena was controversial.. but from my point from what I've been reading seems fishy on the British part.. Why were the lights not on. all the port hole painted black, the ship was zigzagging and acting like a troopship would travel. not a cruise ship.. wonder if we will ever know if Athena was carry weapons also or other contriband

A.L. wrote: "Please let me know what you think about Operation Drumbeat: Germany's U-Boat Attacks Along the American Coast in World War II, Tomi. It's on my to-read list."

Will do! I am not quite 1/4 of the way into it right now.