Reading the Chunksters discussion
This topic is about
The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle
Archived 2014 Group Reads
>
The Wind-up Bird Chronicle by H. Murakami,Book I, Chapters 1-5
I am rereading the book, so I want to stay away from questions I already read answers to. A question on your question #1 - does anyone know what the commonly held attitudes towards male and female roles in the workplace and withing a family were for white collar-middle class urban 30 year olds when this book was written and set, mid-1990's urban Japan?
WhooHoo, Murakami discussion time! :) :)At the moment I don't have time to really collect all of my thoughts about the beginning all at once, but I will post some things as they come to me.
This is the third Murakami book I've read, and one of the things I've noticed is that he often has a character say or think something that is obviously directed at the reader. It's like I can imagine HM stopping at that place, and giving me a big, dramatic wink and nod :D
I was reminded of this in chapter 4, in the passage where Kumiko talks about the cat. She actually says, "He's really important to me, a kind of symbol." ...WINK WINK, haha ...what is it a symbol of, though? That is the big question.
Also, I think it's interesting that Mr. Honda and Malta Kano both raise concerns about "the flow"...Malta Kano said something about the flow being blocked at their house, which is reminiscent of the alleyway that is blocked off at both ends. I'll have to reread those conversations...
I'm checking in to say I've read this section and I am loving the book so far! (my first Murakami read) I like the simple flow of the text as Toru goes about his day and we are allowed see what he is thinking - I feel as if I'm there with him, walking down the alley, looking among the various backyards, and sucking on lemon drops. :) I loved the part where he is sitting in the backyard with the young girl and he suddenly thinks "What the hell was I doing here? Not one cat had showed itself the whole time." ha haZulfiya, I like the questions posted for each thread, I do think it helps spur more discussion and it helps me think about the book in ways I might not otherwise have thought about. So....off to think about some of those questions and I'm excited to see what others have to say here.
Jon wrote: "does anyone know what the commonly held attitudes towards male and female roles in the workplace and withing a family were for white collar-middle class urban 30 year olds when this book was written and set, mid-1990's urban Japan? "
Jon, do you think it was a 'breakthrough' novel because the roles at that time were mostly conventional? It might be. If so, then the novel definitely showcases new relationships between genders in Japan, a certain sneaky preview of the things to come.
John wrote: "Also, I think it's interesting that Mr. Honda and Malta Kano both raise concerns about "the flow""I am reading this novel with the group, and I know you have just finished it, so you do know the answers to the questions, but the questions themselves are spoilers of sorts:-) As far as the flow is concerned, I think it is a way of indicating how fluid the world we live in. It is not stable, and there are a lot of things we are not aware of, and the quest to find the cat might take Toru to new horizons, new worlds, or the underworld of Tokyo.
Linda wrote: "I'm checking in to say I've read this section and I am loving the book so far! (my first Murakami read) I like the simple flow of the text as Toru goes about his day and we are allowed see what he is thinking - I feel as if I'm there with him, walking down the alley, looking among the various backyards, and sucking on lemon drops. :"Linda, you rock! You are participating in all our reads, and I do love your comments.
Another question I have not answered: why start the novel with a phone call to ‘know each other in ten minutes' and a slightly overcooked pasta brunch eaten at 10:30 AM ?Specificity of the 10 minutes impresses Toru, like the need to precisely time cooking spaghetti. Knowing someone in ten minutes no more or less seems absurd, carefully timing the cooking of spagehtti not so outlandish.
Zulfiya, like you I assume the attitudes of that setting of the novel were more 'traditionally defined male-female roles' than now. I hve read the novel thru once so I have some ideas about your question but would have to reveal much too much of the plot to share my thoughts now. I don't think it will spoil the story to say your question is a very good one to keep in mind as the the plot unfolds.
Zulfiya wrote: "I know you have just finished it, so you do know the answers to the questions, but the questions themselves are spoilers of sorts:-)"Ha...when this group read 1Q84 last year, I started about a month too late to read along with the group...now I started a month too early...I can't win :)
In any case, I don't know that I'd say I "know the answers"...the things I've posted are from notes I took on my first read-through, so I don't think they benefit from hindsight... But I promise to be careful not to ask leading questions.
Jon wrote: "why start the novel with a phone call to ‘know each other in ten minutes' and a slightly overcooked pasta brunch eaten at 10:30 AM ?"I definitely do not know the answers, but how about the elevation of the mundane if we are talking about the overcooked pasta for branch. It is one of thrends in literature in the twentieth century. The question is why Toru was having a late branch if he usually had breakfast with his wife before she went to work.
As for the mysterious phone call, it seems to be a tunnel to the other world, and it is not necessarily the other phantasmagorical world, just a darker world, a word alien to his culture and his life.
Jon wrote: "Another question I have not answered: why start the novel with a phone call to ‘know each other in ten minutes' and a slightly overcooked pasta brunch eaten at 10:30 AM ?Specificity of the 10 minu..."
Another connection to the 10 minutes is that Rossini's Overture to the Thieving Magpie, referred to as the perfect pasta cooking music (or something I don't have my book in front of me) is also 10 minutes. Hmmm...
Q 1: It makes me feel a little anxious when Kumiko starts working late and doesn't call. So they seem comfortable, but I'm not comfortable.
Jon wrote: "#1 - does anyone know what the commonly held attitudes towards male and female roles in the workplace and withing a family were for white collar-middle class urban 30 year olds when this book was written and set, mid-1990's urban Japan?..."I am under the impression the book's setting (date) precedes the mid-1990s because of the reference to cassette tapes and also telephones which ring up to 15 or 20 times (which suggests they didn't have voice mail technology).
Kumiko asks if Toru "hates staying home like this and doing housework," so I also believe at the time the attitudes were more traditional.
Stacie wrote: "Q1: At first neither one seems 100% at ease with it. He tells her, she says "I see." Then fastfoeward she calls him about a job not in his field, but for which he has experience; he seems taken aba..."I agree that their interactions with each other seem somewhat curt and a little off. I wasn't sure if this was due to a distance in their marriage, or if this is how the translation came across. I haven't read any other Murakami books so I'm not familiar with his typical dialogues.
And good point about Toru's career - he doesn't plunge into his career of choice by taking the bar, yet he doesn't want to attempt something different (the poetry) which might bring an income. It seems he has no idea what to do at this point and is just going with the flow, which involves searching for a cat - which I find pretty amusing. His wife is working in a hectic overtime job, and she is directing him to go find her cat. And since he seems to have nothing better to do, this becomes his focus.
Anna wrote: "Jon wrote: "#1 - does anyone know what the commonly held attitudes towards male and female roles in the workplace and withing a family were for white collar-middle class urban 30 year olds when thi..."It says in my copy that Book I takes place in June/July 1984.
Zulfiya wrote: "You are participating in all our reads"Yeah, I somehow got sucked into reading all of them!! :D
sorry yes the setting is mid- 1980's but the copyright is 1997 (in my copy)- my assumption is that it was written mid 1990's and has that time's social attitudes. Maybe there were changes in Japanese social/cultural mores between mid '80s and mid '90s. I just did not want to assume our american cultural roles of that era were the same in Japan.
John wrote: "This is the third Murakami book I've read, and one of the things I've noticed is that he often has a character say or think something that is obviously directed at the reader. It's like I can imagine HM stopping at that place, and giving me a big, dramatic wink and nod :DI was reminded of this in chapter 4, in the passage where Kumiko talks about the cat. She actually says, "He's really important to me, a kind of symbol." ...WINK WINK, haha ...what is it a symbol of, though? That is the big question. "
Interesting! Now I'm sure to be on the lookout for such instances while reading. :)
Jon wrote: "sorry yes the setting is mid- 1980's but the copyright is 1997 (in my copy)- my assumption is that it was written mid 1990's and has that time's social attitudes. Maybe there were changes in Japane..."Currently Japan's Prime Minister Abe believes there are too few Japanese women in corporate boardrooms so I believe it's safe to say we can consider Japan's society to be male-dominated.
I lived in Japan in the early 70's as a child and then again in the early '80's as a young adult(I'm half-Japanese, BTW). While there were a lot of women in the workforce in the 80's, I believe back then there was a general consensus that once a woman was married and started having children, she would be expected to assume the role of "stay at home mom."
Thanks Anna, I just wanted to know if the author intended what I saw as a pretty complete reversal of traditional roles. Like Stacie and Linda I think Kumiko and Toru are not showing us a passionate, loving, caring, deeply engaged with each other, couple. Anyone have any ideas what the 'flow' might be? It is still an open question for me after my first read thru of the novel.
finally getting around to reading the comments here and leaving some of my own!Seeing so many similarities between this and 1Q84 so far.
No, I don't think they feel comfortable in their roles. Or rather, I think that neither of them are comfortable with Toru sitting home all day. His wife seems like she is pushing him to DO something useful with himself, and he himself seems ... like he doesn't know what to do all day. Bored.
The creepy 10 minutes of getting-to-know-you using phone sex call has not yet been explained... seems totally random! But in 1Q84 which we read previously, sex was a link to other things, so perhaps the same applies here. I had thought that maybe Malta or the girl from the alleyway would be the phone-sex caller, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
I thought for sure Toru was going to fall into the well, after all that talk about water and being careful around water or places where water used to be. But he also made a connection to something Mr. Honda told him about going down to wells, so perhaps he will just climb down it in the future. Seems like a bad idea to me, but I wouldn't put it past him!
Interested to see where the next section takes us, and whether he ever finds the poor cat!
Churchlady wrote: "It makes me feel a little anxious when Kumiko starts working late and doesn't call. So they seem comfortable, but I'm not comfortable."I agree - she seems to be disappearing as well, well, metaphorically speaking.
Anna wrote: "I lived in Japan in the early 70's as a child and then again in the early '80's as a young adult(I'm half-Japanese, BTW)."Anna, do you think it enhanced your perception of the novel? Did you relate on a different level? Do you think that cultural background of this novel is important or does it represent common human features are relatable for many people from different parts of the world?
Basically, how Japanese is this novel?
Deana wrote: "Seeing so many similarities between this and 1Q84 so far."Glad to see you here, Deana
I also felt these similarities all the time - the mood, the unknown, the bizarre.
Because it is my second Murakami, I wonder whether these similarities are specific only for these two novels, or are these are the features of his style and his books?
Deana wrote: "I thought for sure Toru was going to fall into the well, after all that talk about water and being careful around water or places where water used to be. But he also made a connection to something Mr. Honda told him about going down to wells, so perhaps he will just climb down it in the future. Seems like a bad idea to me, but I wouldn't put it past him!"Japanese wormholes? And again, different universes like in 19Q8.
Zulfiya wrote: "Anna wrote: "I lived in Japan in the early 70's as a child and then again in the early '80's as a young adult(I'm half-Japanese, BTW)."Anna, do you think it enhanced your perception of the novel?..."
My "physical" perception of the novel helps because I lived in a Japanese house/neighborhood and frequently visited Tokyo but that doesn't necessarily mean I can relate to the story on a different level than anyone else.
How Japanese is this novel? Murakami does throw in a bit of Japanese tradition/culture here and there especially concerning old Mr. Honda. He still dresses in an old kimono and sits at a table over a sunken hearth called a "kotasu table." My grandma had one of those in her old house. As far as the story goes, however, I believe the human factor trumps culture.
I had a summer job in a large corporate Japanese company in Sapporo back in 2010, and I definitely saw division between male and female co-workers in the office. Most women hold some sort of secretarial/paperwork positions. The closest to clients they got was when they needed to bring in the tea for the meeting. I was even explained that women in Japan are expected to leave workforce once they get married. But I did see a couple of married ladies that still chose to work, but management positions were all filled with men. Hope that gives a more recent example of the situation there. Maybe it's a little more progressive in Tokyo though?
Thank you, Andrea. I think with the new development in the forthcoming chapters, this commentary on gender roles is even more elucidating.
This book is my first Murakami, but I have heard that cats play a role in many of his novels.I've also heard that his novels have sort of this dreamy element to them as if what is happening is surreal to some extent. I have certainly had that feeling while reading the first five chapters of the book.
Since no one else has mentioned it, what do you all think about the random sex parts? Specifically the lady on the phone at the opening of the novel and the porn magazine that the girl in the alley has? Is it evidence of some type of sexual repression on the part of Toru? A part of me thinks that he imagined the call and the porn mag, but then the other part of me feels that it symbolic of something happening in Toru's life.
Sera wrote: "Since no one else has mentioned it, what do you all think about the random sex parts? Specifically the lady on the phone at the opening of the novel and the porn magazine that the girl in the alle..."This is also my first Murakami. So far I am enjoying the seemingly total randomness to Toru's encounters. It'll be interesting to see how (or if) everything ties together.
I had forgotten about the girl's magazine, but the phone call was definitely weird and since it has not been brought up again in the story, I wonder if you might be correct in these things having to do with some sort of sexual repression or is representative of something significant in Toru's life.
Sera wrote: "This book is my first Murakami, but I have heard that cats play a role in many of his novels.I've also heard that his novels have sort of this dreamy element to them as if what is happening is su..."
I think you are on to something with the dreamy quality of some of the events.
This is my 4th Murakami, and this one definitely strikes me as the most strange so far. It starts out normally enough, but then, as Sera pointed out, he gets the strange sexual phone call and it just seems to get more strange from there. I mean, I've read enough of his books now to realize that he sees sex as just a part of life, but this instance was an oddity.Also, did anyone who read 1Q84 last year notice that Murakami appears to have a thing about the way phones ring? In 1Q84, Tengo always talks about how the phone has a particularly frantic ring about it when his writer/editor calls, and several times already here Toru has detailed the ringing of the phone in a special way. Thoughts?
As for Tengo, maybe it was his heightened sensibility to see and feel things that are important. The same might be true about Toru - look how fragmented his world is. Many mundane things actually become significant. He is a keen observer, but his his keenness a boon or a pathological trend?
The lives of Toru and Kumiko seemed so banal that they could swap with very little difficulty. While there is some adjustment, it is as if their lives were so superficial that their gender role switch didn't change much. However, I do feel that they are lost. Perhaps it's a statement about the regimented Japanese society. It's regimented for both men and women so both are very much trapped and we feel something brewing beneath the surface for Toru and Kumiko despite being good citizens and members of society doing their part.
or as Mr Honda would say, Toru is made for above and below this world, while the Law (s of society) preside over things of this world, ....which are clearly defined "he is him" etc etc....and alos, he is the best possible partner for Kumiko...I hope not a spoiler to say something is brewing ( well if nothing were brewing there wouldn't be a story, right )
What I'm loving so far is the unpredictability of the story
Jean wrote: "The lives of Toru and Kumiko seemed so banal that they could swap with very little difficulty. "Banality is tricky. Sometimes it is just banality, and sometimes it hides something that runs very deep, a mask of sorts.
It seems to me that maybe Murakami focuses on banal details so much as a way to accentuate the surreal when it does come along...in the same way that a suspenseful movie might insert moments of levity to accentuate the tension that comes after? The juxtaposition makes the surreal seem that much stranger.
A strange yet compelling story so far. I like the existential style, I feel I'm in the moment with Toru, in his 'now'. I can't help but imagine the flow as the energy of life, chi. Sometimes it gets stagnant and you move things about, make changes to get it moving again. Their relationship seems stagnant too and I can't help but wonder if Kumiko really is working late most evenings. The ten minute phone call is odd and I wonder if Toru is sexually repressed, unfulfilled. Probably more to it than that. I'm certainly intrigued as to what happens next.
John wrote: "It seems to me that maybe Murakami focuses on banal details so much as a way to accentuate the surreal when it does come along...in the same way that a suspenseful movie might insert moments of lev..."I like this thought. It's like throwing random colors into a mostly black and white film.
I'm super late to the discussion, but just finished reading this section. I am enjoying the story so far and find the weirdness of it really interesting. The first phone calls as the strangest thing ever. I also thought the references to water constantly was weird- I know water is important (without it we die) but there obviously is some deeper meaning to the water. I'm interested in the role reversal also. I know during this time period it was uncommon for the woman to be the breadwinner, now it isn't so strange.
I'm excited to see where this story is going :)
John wrote: "It seems to me that maybe Murakami focuses on banal details so much as a way to accentuate the surreal when it does come along...in the same way that a suspenseful movie might insert moments of lev..."I like that observation!
I found an interview in which Murakami discusses his focus on mundane detail:
"I like details very much. Tolstoy wanted to write the total description; my description is focused on a very small area. When you describe the details of small things, your focus gets closer and closer, and the opposite of Tolstoy happens—it gets more unrealistic. That’s what I want to do."
...
"The closer it gets, the less real it gets. That’s my style."
I missed the group read, though fortunately I'm making my way through this now. So far I'm intrigued by the writing style.
E :) wrote: "I missed the group read, though fortunately I'm making my way through this now. So far I'm intrigued by the writing style."Enjoy the wild ride, E :)! Not sure if you've read Murakami before, but this was my first and I found it quite intriguing and enjoyable, even if I didn't quite understand everything. The group discussions for this read were great!
E:), I hope you will enjoy this novel. Feel free to post. I will respond if I can. Because I read it nearly a year ago, I might inadvertently spoil, so if I post back, I will be very vague ;-)
Thank you Linda and Zulfiya! I suppose it's better late than never. :)
I like how Murakami steps back in time to give the backstories on several occasions. The opening of the book occurs only ~1 month after chap 2. Their marriage has disintegrated rapidly…. Only 1 month ago, it was rare that Kumiko returned late. Now it's commonplace.
Clearly, Toru's decision to quit his job has bothered Kumiko. I'm not sure whether she's being dishonest by pretending to be OK with everything, or whether she doesn't fully realize that she is bothered by his choice.
The scene with the peppers and onions, which occurred 1 week after Toru quit his job, was unsettling. Toru makes excuses for Kumiko by attributing her behavior to phases of the moon. Perhaps his intent is to be kind, but in doing so he's really missing the bigger picture. He doesn't consider that she might be pissed at him for screwing up in his new role. He messed up dinner and shopping, which are now some of his ONLY responsibilities…..
I'm reading this with friend (male), and we have different opinions on that scene. We both agree that Kumiko was obviously not expressing herself appropriately. However, he sees Toru as a weak man for catering to an irrational woman and has implied that Toru shouldn't put up with that treatment. I, on the other hand, think that Toru's decision to quit his job is the obvious cause of the trouble. Toru has made a decision that strongly impacts Kumiko's life. It's unfortunate that they fail to have an honest conversation.
I found that whole scene really interseting, too, E :)On the one hand, Kumiko is being "dishonest" by not complaining about Toru's lack of job. But on the other hand, there have been many things my husband has done that I don't necessarily agree with, but I'm supportive of his choices. True, this particular choice does affect her some, though they seem to be doing well and not lacking for food, shelter, clothing, etc, so perhaps they don't really NEED two incomes. I guess I just sort of thought she's trying to be a "good wife" and let him explore this path for a while, hoping she will be pleasantly surprised and it will end up better than she expected.
But certainly it isn't going well at this point in their story....
1. What do you think about Toru Okada and Kumiko Okada? Their roles are reversed: she is a bread-winner, and he is the one in charge of laundry, cooking, grocery shopping, and paying bills. Do those roles fit them? Do they feel comfortable?
2. As in 19Q4, Murakami gives tribute to the Moon as the symbol of feminine complexity and inner rhythms that we often take for granted. Did you accept his interpretation of the Moon?
3. The wind-up bird is obviously quite symbolic in the novel, but we do not know yet what it stands for. As a symbol, it might go through a certain transformation and acquire additional meaning. How do you view this semi-symbolic bird/concept?
4. When does the lost cat turn into a quest to find it and and explore the world around?
5. Gradually, the fabric of the novel becomes less and less realistic and more and more bizarre. Did you enjoy this transformation?
6. Toru Okada mentioned cursorily that once Kumiko's menstrual cycle was off, and he also mentioned that it was because of her pregnancy. At the same time, it is obvious that they are not raising a child. What do you think happened? Abortion? Miscarriage? The child was given for adoption? The child died?
Why do you think Toku only mentioned it once? Do you think Murakami will eventually return back to the question of Kumiko's pregnancy?
As I often state, and I will happily do it again, you are not required to answer these questions, but I always find it helpful to have a certain sense of direction when I participate in a discussion, and it is easier to express myself when I have questions in mind even if I am not answering them directly.
Post away!