A Cooperative Press for Indie Authors discussion

If you are a blogger, on your own website, facepage, or otherwise, please consider how you might help promote the group's and the coop's interests, and share your ideas here.

I know some of the authors here have been working with the challenges of Indie publishing for some time. I have only been dealing with the challenges of post-production for less than a year. So, I may not have the depth of knowledge to make an in depth analysis, but these are some of the challenges as I see them.

I knew I needed to create a web presence in order to have a base to promote myself. So, I set up a website, www.bowmaidenchronicle.com. I created an author FB page, Twitter, and Tumblr. Here is my opinion on each of those platforms.

The website may someday be an important element, but currently it is just another unknown site. So, it gives credibility, but little else. I do think they are worth creating, but I am thinking a blog presence would be easier and just as effective if not more so.

Tumblr, is not a great platform for book promotion.

Twitter is a cluster-@#$! of back scratching. It's only value is that publishers and others in the industry equate the number of followers with an actual base of fans which is ludicrous. I still log on daily, follow a few people, and get about 10 follows a day. But, that is all the effort I envision ever putting into Twitter. If someone has a different experience, I would love some details on how they use Twitter for positive growth.

Facebook I believe could be a valuable tool, if you can get people to follow you. I tie my website blog into my Facebook page, and in all honesty, I think this is worth developing both short term and long term but you need to be active. Minimally once a week but ideally 2-4 times a week.

That is my position on social media. I have better hopes for indie author cooperation, although, that has not been without some snags. One of the first authors who "read" my book and gave me a review never read my book. It was blatantly obvious by her review. Review swapping is illegal or discouraged and if reviews are done, have to be tagged as "I was given a book for free review" which makes them sound less legitimate to me.

A couple of books I have tried to read from others were so poorly written, I never made it beyond the first chapter. I don't want to offer reviews on novels I find poorly written as I feel it is a bad reflection on me if I support them. If I give them a poor review, then I have to worry about a backlash from a jilted author. It is just a dicey situation with complete strangers. I think a group environment could improve on this process. Needless to say, reviews are important, but the review process is problematic.

The big question that arises for me is how can a community of authors create a means to promote quality work, support other authors of varying skill levels, and have a positive impact in terms of sales. I am pretty sure we would all like to be able to make an honest living doing what we love. The biggest hurdle we all face is legitimacy and exposure. Each of us know how hard we work and believe in the quality and entertainment value of our labor, but how do we begin to grow this notion among others in the industry?

1) We have to be honest about the quality among our peers. This doesn't mean some cruel exclusionary system, but it does mean we need to be willing to say, "This needs more work."

2) Have resources available for authors who need to hone their skills. This could be as simple as forums that specifically address growth, literature, or other online resources. I have read some material that I thought had brilliant potential, but was mired with clumsy prose or grammatical errors. Some positive direction would go a long way.

3) A willingness to promote quality work. There needs to be a willingness to put time toward cross promoting. It is great to say, yea I'd love to be a part of something, but as with anything in life, if there is no labor toward success, then none will be found.

Before I end up with another novel here, I will end with one final thought. I am willing to work with everyone here to make this work. I am thick skinned an appreciate honesty above all else. I have some health challenges, but I am willing to make the commitment to read a novel from every author here and offer my reaction. I am also willing to take considerable time away from my writing to help make this endeavor a success. I just think we need a clearly defined goal and expectations. How are we going to make this a vehicle toward success and overcome indie obstacles?

J.W. Thank you for a very informative and insightful post.

I think one of the most productive things we can do for each other is beta reading. That being said, I realize it is time consuming. Perhaps we could set up a prioritized system (sort of a literary triage): (1)First read - if the work needs considerable revision, make broad suggestions and criticisms and return to the author for revision without a close read. (2)Second read - if the work is progressing but still needs relatively major revisions, read more carefully, and cite specific examples. (3)Third read - The work is nearly ready for publication, but requires a thorough proofing. The beta reading process would progress through the reads, with some works needing all three reads, some coming in at the second read level, and the fortunate few that only require a thorough proofing. Each beta reader could sign off on a work designating its read level. And as you suggest, J.W., it would require all of us to be candid and thick skinned. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

A.

I love using beta readers. I just sent the first half of my second novel out to some beta readers. For me, it would be difficult for anyone here to beta read my second novel as it is a continuation of a trilogy. In order for someone to follow the story, they would have to read my first novel. But I'd be more than happy to help others.

J.W. As someone mentioned somewhere, you could always write a short resume of what happened in the first book so the beta could follow the story without being too lost. I mean, it may not be the same as reading both books but you'd be able to find beta more easily doing that.

If you stay in contact with the beta while he/she reads it, the beta could simply ask you questions if they don't understand something or think there's a problem.

For example if your MC has special abilities that you forgot to mention, the beta would only have to point out what they find strange, and you could tell them that it's because of so or so. I mean, sure reading a sequel isn't the same but it's not entirely impossible.

I didn't think about that in relation to beta readers. I put a post on my Facebook and asked if anyone that read book 1 wanted to beta read book 2 and had several volunteers. A gentleman from Australia told me they read my book three times and I just published it in April, so I am really interested in his opinion. He appears to be very invested in the characters.

I did make that offer to my new editor, but she said she didn't mind reading the first book, so it wasn't an issue.

I could certainly do that here though.

J.W. and G.G.

Yours is probably the most important discussion we need to have here. Improving our work through mutual assistance is our path to credibility, period. We must dedicate ourselves to producing work worthy of our readers - and our beta reader! (Sorry for the exclamation point, G.G. ;) )

I am also convinced that in reading the work of other authors we gain insight into our own.

A.

A.

A. wrote: "J.W. and G.G.

Yours is probably the most important discussion we need to have here. Improving our work through mutual assistance is our path to credibility, period. We must dedicate ourselves to..."

Just a thought - Since beta reading is going to be such an essential part of our effort, perhaps there are those who are not authors but feel called to participate in the literary undertaking by serving as beta readers (and maybe one day becoming true editors). I would suggest that we should open membership in the coop to dedicated beta readers as well.

A.

I think that would be a good idea.

Hello everybody. I guess this is the best place for me to introduce myself to the group. I'm a brand new self-published eBook author and new to Goodreads as well.

It was a godsend that Adrian recruited me to IACP. His timely reading of my sc-fi novel provided me the tremendous service of identifying errors my editor and volunteer proofreaders had missed. I had already sold a few books and the thought of selling large quantities of my book in that condition is mortifying.

A. Umaz' adding me to the IACP bookshelf was very validating. It felt great to see my book in the company of other works by independent authors. And it also provided a tremendous service. I was able to see and prove that my graphic artist had indeed undersized my cover. I sent him the link and he responded immediately.

I see great potential in the IACP website to promote and mutually support. The challenge, especially for a writer like myself, who has been working alone for so long, is to read, proof read and edit another author's work. Perhaps the way to counter this self-centeredness is to commit to working with the author one recruits, as Adrian did with me.

Re: J.W.’s insights on using social media - my comments, I apologize if I'm being redundant below, stating what everybody already knows.

Tumblr – I agree, in and of itself not a good platform. However, I’ve seen an independent author and publisher use it as sort of a staging platform for other social media. It has to do with the creative visual backdrops that can be rendered through Tumblr. The idea is to post a hook in Twitter that draws the potential reader to a visual presentation on Tumblr that is a very compelling call to action. In my humble opinion Tumblr can be used only as a marginal supplement to bring visual variety to an author's social media presence. Fiction, whatever genre it maybe and regardless of what the highbrow academic critics say - is all about entertainment. So the challenge is always to make our social media, as authors, more and more entertaining. Hence, Tumblr.

Twitter – retweeting other author's books can be a dead end if it's not used strategically. I saw an author on Twitter complain that even though he had 65,000 Twitter followers, he was not selling any books. My experience has been that the magic in Tweeter is to make it a contact point to meet independent authors who provide genuine mutual support. I first met Adrian through Twitter. I’ve sold books through Twitter because these authors reposted me and they had readers as followers who liked my shtick. Hash tags are essential for getting into other author networks and interest groups, for example #IAN1 (Independent Author Net) or #cyberpunk. Thus your tweet for your book will branch out to all the hash tag Tweeter sites, greatly expanding the potential to find readers.

Facebook – I spend too much time there but it has provided me with a solid anchor in social media. The pros recommend you use personal Facebook to establish your presence and create relationships with prospective readers, not to mass market your book. It takes time to build up a large Fb friend’s list but it's worth the investment. The key is to find your particular base or tribe of Fb friends. Posting on issues that are trending or posting interesting articles works to attract potential Fb friends. Offering interesting information on a personal level is very important. It can be fun stuff, like pets and hobbies. My work is dark and defiant so I post accordingly. That's how people will feel connected to my work, through that personal touch. But it takes discipline and restraint not to respond too much to their personal stuff.

As authors we always have to remember we are on Fb to sell books, not to make friends. Okay, I've made friends but they're business friends. I separate them from my other Fb "friends." The pros always point out that author and book sites on Fb are what's designed for large scale marketing. Thus, my potential readers will be directed to the author and book pages from my personal Fb site once my marketing scaffold is on solid ground and I'm ready to invest in Fb ads.

Finally...I mention the "pros." Yes, there are independent authors and publishers who have figured out how to use social media to sell tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of books and make money. Some of them are very generous with information and some want an eyeball for their information. The info and support we share here on IACP can be very valuable. I am very excited about joining all of you in this noble endeavor that is the Independent Authors Cooperative Press.

I have to admit Frank, I am a complete newbaphile to twitter. I am a very private person as well so the social media blitz for my book feels like an invasion.

I am glad to see some positive experience with Twitter and even Tumblr. I can't envision Tumblr being much use to me as I can do anything Tumblr can do on my website. Perhaps you could share some details and strategies you employ with Twitter that you believe beneficial? Such as which hashtags you are using and frequencies of posts etc.

I keep my FB accounts separate, although there is some obvious cross-over. One is for friends and family and one specific to my writing endeavors. I think of the various platforms, it has the greatest potential, although that may change if i discover something new with Twitter. Right now it just seems like everyone is racing to find followers. I rarely even glance at the tweets coming across my screen. I do read direct messages though. It still feels like a cluster to me though.

Why is Tweeter to meet other authors and FB to sell and not to make friends? How did you come up with that rule?

Personally, I don't get Twitter. You can't meet other authors unless you visit their author page and vice versa. Ok, maybe it shows in my reply that I'm not a fan of Twitter. I find it too difficult to use. On the other hand FB is easy. You can link, post pictures, post a thought, anything. There' s no limit.

The people on FB don't deserve to be treated differently and most certainly not used exclusively for sale.

G.G. wrote: "Why is Tweeter to meet other authors and FB to sell and not to make friends? How did you come up with that rule?

Personally, I don't get Twitter. You can't meet other authors unless you visit the..."

I think when it comes to the new social paradigm, there are no rules (at least, as yet). It is true that the big publishing houses utilize FB as strictly a business venue. They aren't really interested in what we think, only what they can make us believe. On the other hand, I think venues like Goodreads, and FB as a socializing venue, allow us to integrate our lives and our work. So often in the past "making it" meant leaving home never to return. I you wanted to be a successful author, you had to go to the Big Apple. Oh, of course, once you had "made it", you could afford the place in Maine or on Martha's Vineyard, and live the quaint, provincial life. But you had first to pay homage at the courts of the publishing dynasties. Not so anymore. We can now share our successes (and our failures) with our friends - or not, as we choose.

G.G. wrote: "Why is Tweeter to meet other authors and FB to sell and not to make friends? How did you come up with that rule?

Personally, I don't get Twitter. You can't meet other authors unless you visit the..."

Frank wrote: "G.G. wrote: "Why is Tweeter to meet other authors and FB to sell and not to make friends? How did you come up with that rule?

Personally, I don't get Twitter. You can't meet other authors unless ..."

J.W. wrote: "I have to admit Frank, I am a complete newbaphile to twitter. I am a very private person as well so the social media blitz for my book feels like an invasion.

I am glad to see some positive exper..."


J.W. that was my main point about Fb. You can create and use separate accounts. Feeding from the friends to the Fb author and book accounts is a recommended strategy. As for Twitter, I'll providing the hash tags I have for indie authors as well some specific strategies that have worked for me.

Thanks Frank. That would be much appreciated.

Is somebody talking to me? Last I heard, friends are sold on Facebook. They're sold in batches. I wouldn't buy any because in the long run I think it's ineffective for an indie author. In my case I built my following of Fb friends on my personal page. Once, when I responded to an author who wanted to do a mutual Like with our Facebook sites, she didn't want to follow me as a Facebook friend. So yes, separate Facebook accounts are important.

J.W. here are some hash tags that have worked for me in the past -

#bookplugs
#ArtKNB
#kst
#1ARTG
#T4US
#ASMSG
#IAN1
#indieauthor

A couple of those hash sites might be in inactive. For me retweeting authors at those Tweet sites works better than just thanking those who've retweeted me. I find it annoying when authors use Tweeter Message to do a cold call to action. The challenge for independent authors using Twitter is to find Twitter friends who may be authors but who are also Twitter centers of influence, meaning they have a lot of followers who are potential readers of the sub genres I have written in, dystopia, cyberpunk, Mad Max apocalyptic. That's how I've sold eBooks on Twitter, through authors who have those followers.

On a related note, I will be looking for ways to use the IACP stamp in all my social media. I do believe it gives us credibility. It is as A. said on another thread - we keep expanding the web that will bring us potential readers and book buyers.

I'll be honest, I have a hard enough time promoting myself, my works and events going on nevermind a group. That's not to say I or anyone else whose having the same issue can't promote this group because I will do what I can. I will post a link and perhaps the logo onto my site and I will mention the group on social media when ever I feel it's necessary and even tell people about it on Goodreads. I know several groups that have threads to which people who are looking for and people who offer editing and beta reading services so in that sense I say I could post the group and explain what we have in that department.

I cannot guarantee a spike in people I'm just explaining what I myself can do in regards to promoting the group. We are all in this together so we should all contribute and at least make an effort to promote the group however that might be and however big or small of an attempt.

*On another note I noticed a few people talking about Facebook, Twitter and Tumblr. I'd suggest we make a thread called "Social Media Experiences and Expectations" where we all tell our stories and and give insight and tips for one another. It was just a thought because I mean I felt the whole social media talk was going off topic in a sense and if anyone had any more deep thoughts and comments about it that perhaps a thread could be created for it separately.

Isn't social media the main vehicle we all use to promote ourselves? Seems like it would also be the vehicle that could be used to promote this endeavor.

J.W. wrote: "Isn't social media the main vehicle we all use to promote ourselves? Seems like it would also be the vehicle that could be used to promote this endeavor."

And we are. https://www.facebook.com/IACPress

Yea I know. But Justin posed:

"*On another note I noticed a few people talking about Facebook, Twitter and Tumblr. I'd suggest we make a thread called "Social Media Experiences and Expectations" where we all tell our stories and and give insight and tips for one another. It was just a thought because I mean I felt the whole social media talk was going off topic"

Social media is merely one of the many ways to which we promote ourselves and can promote the group, I felt since people were sharing their social media experiences that it would be better suited to discuss social media as a whole in it's own topic.

J.W., I like your post and I agree that indies have to help each other. However, I do not believe everyone can help everyone.
For example, my blog, Bradan's World, is now reviewing children's lit, and by that I mean books aimed at kids 8+ (so no rhyming books or 800 word picture books). I realized, after reviewing a few books, I can't just go ahead and review here and write a blogpost there. So it's my niche, because it's my genre speciality. My main focus is books for kids 10-17.

And finally, as Justin said, it's hard enough to promote ourselves, let alone everyone else. No matter how altruistic an author may be, we do care about our own books more than about a stranger's. It's just reality. So the authors who do well I suspect have a) lots of books and b) a lot of time to go around promoting themselves, and doing favors for others.

Those of us who work more than 40 hours a week, excluding book-related activities, already begin with a disadvantage when it comes to finding time to trade favors with someone else to promote our work (I'm excluding people who are paid to promote you, if any). Woe to the author who has kids to take care of on top of a full-time job.

This is an interesting article on topic:

http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2015/...

Facebook sucks for sales. so this writer concludes:

http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2015/...

J.W. wrote: "Facebook sucks for sales. so this writer concludes:

http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2015/..."

J.W.

It is true that Facebook cannot sell books, but it can increase our web presence, which will sell books. We must leave no avenue unexploited. ;)

agreed

Hello, I saw another introduction on this thread and thought I would introduce myself here too. I released my first book in July and am happy to be part of this community.

I have a fair amount of marketing experience and spent a few years as an outsourcer managing social media for a marketing company in California.

Despite that, I still find marketing a book to be a new and frustrating experience. I have several Twitter accounts with a large following and have had some success with them, but it's nowhere near what you might expect from the number of followers.

I believe it is important for an author to establish a presence on Twitter and Facebook, but I wouldn't recommend wasting a lot of time on social media. I have also had some success with paid advertising, but most authors have limited budgets and most options won't give you a good return on your investment.

In any case, I like the idea of beta reading for each other. I don't have much time for that at the moment, but I would be interested in doing that in the future.

Welcome, Daniel!

Almost all of my (very few) sales have been from friends and family on Facebook - I have yet to break out into the more general population.

As for paid advertising, I'm waiting until I have a more marketable product - I know that advertising for my current books will just be a waste of money.

Thanks, too, for the offer to (eventually) be a beta reader. Are you willing to be added to the Members section of the Co-oPress site as a Beta Reader? (Not that I have anything to do with adding people to the site...)

But anyway, back to the topic of the thread: is it worth mentioning each other's books on social media? Is that one way we can help one another, and the Co-oPress as a whole?

J. wrote: "Welcome, Daniel!

Almost all of my (very few) sales have been from friends and family on Facebook - I have yet to break out into the more general population.

As for paid advertising, I'm waiting u..."

J.D.

I try to mention or post something about the Co-oPress and Helios Imprint every chance I get, and share as widely as possible. The more people that see our logos the greater our identity will become. So, I know your question was directed to Daniel, but if I can put in my 2 cents worth, I'd say post our logos everyplace you can.

A.

Thank you for the welcome J.

I wouldn't mind being listed as a beta reader. I just wouldn't be able to fulfill many requests at the moment.

I think it's a fine idea to mention each other's books on social media. It also looks more natural than just talking about your own book. I'll think about that and might return with more ideas on the subject.

Daniel wrote: "Thank you for the welcome J.

I wouldn't mind being listed as a beta reader. I just wouldn't be able to fulfill many requests at the moment.

I think it's a fine idea to mention each other's books ..."

Daniel,

I will add you to the Beta Reader list this evening. Understand it puts you under no obligation, it only indicates you are willing to be contacted concerning beta reading. Any and all decisions are left entirely up to the individuals involved.

I am looking forward to hearing your ideas on exploiting social media. I have set up a Co-oPress page on my Facebook account, but maybe we should consider creating a stand alone FB page for the coop. I think it is possible to transfer an existing page to a different account which would save a little work, though at present I don't know how that is done.

A.

I have set up a Co-oPress page on my Facebook account, but maybe we should consider creating a stand alone FB page for the coop. I think it is possible to transfer an existing page to a different account which would save a little work, though at present I don't know how that is done.

A,

The Facebook page looks fine. Pages are separate from accounts. Since you set it up, you are an admin, but you can always add other admins or contributors without actually transferring the page.

A Twitter account could also be helpful. If it tweets our books, it would be a simple matter to retweet the links or use the tweets as templates for our own tweets.

I'll return to this thread later with other ideas.

Daniel wrote: "I have set up a Co-oPress page on my Facebook account, but maybe we should consider creating a stand alone FB page for the coop. I think it is possible to transfer an existing page to a different a..."

Daniel,

Would you consider being an admin on the Facebook page? I am spread rather thin these days, and could certainly use the help. I think the Twitter account is a could idea, but must confess that my Tweeting experience is next to nill. Would you be willing to set up a Twitter account for the coop? The more hands we get involved in building our web, the faster it will grow.

A.

Sure, I would be happy to be an admin. I can also set up a Twitter account. I'll send you a message to work out a few minor details.

So I'm curious, aside from a bunch of messages on Goodreads and a few articles posted on the Facebook page, has anyone done anything for the group?

I'm at a loss again like I first was when the group started, I'm missing what the point is. Maybe it's just me but I know we have lovely pictures and pages with presses of our books on the site, but what are we doing with those? I just want to get an idea so I can contribute or do anything I can to help promote us. I just want to get a reminder of what exactly it is the group is and what it's about and what we can do for it. I feel like right now there's a lot of messages being sent out that don't really tell anything or give us something to do. As I stated before, I'd be more than happy to promote everyone and the group given that's what we are to do but are we promoting for other services as well? I'll admit I haven't done much promoting for the group but that's only because I've been busy like most of us are with other things. I've just released my 4th novel and been promoting and marketing myself. I'm having moderate success in that department so if we are a place to help one another promote our group and works then I'd definitely like to start doing that now as I know I could use the help.

I have a few basic questions as to the identity of the group and exactly what we are and what do we offer:

-What is IACP?

-When people visit the site what do we want them to take from the site?

-What services are we offering them?

-When we direct people to our presses/books on the site, what do we want them to take from it?

Justin wrote: "So I'm curious, aside from a bunch of messages on Goodreads and a few articles posted on the Facebook page, has anyone done anything for the group?

I'm at a loss again like I first was when the gr..."

Justin,

Right now IACP is little more than another POS for works by participating independent authors. As time passes (I understand that it generally takes 6 months or so for the search engines to really kick in) it will provide additional exposure to the reading public.

But my real hope is that it is a starting place for something much larger - an independent cooperative publishing house to compete with the traditional investor driven publishing houses. We are in the process of putting together a steering committee to explore a realistic business model. Drop us a line at: info@co-opress.org if you are interested in participating in this next phase. For more information check out the Blogs on the website.

A.

A. wrote: "Justin wrote: "So I'm curious, aside from a bunch of messages on Goodreads and a few articles posted on the Facebook page, has anyone done anything for the group?

I'm at a loss again like I first ..."

Thanks for the response A. I understand, I'm just trying to get an idea of where we stand as a group because sometimes the idea in messages isn't clear. That sounds like a good plan going forward and I would be more than happy to participate in the next phase.

I'll e-mail you and I'll check out the blogs on the website.

-Justin