On Paths Unknown discussion

Hi everyone! Initial thread for If on a Winter's Night a Traveler by Italo Calvino where we can clock in and get our bearings.

Unfortunately, I got news earlier on today that my mother survived a massive heart attack and is in hospital where she will require bypass surgery. I'm waiting to try and see if I'll have to fly up there to see her and when, so apologies if... well, in any case, you people can still start in any case, and I will do the best I can.

I was going to post a "newsletter" to remind of this discussion and to point to the schedule for next year, but under the circumstances, my plans have gone slightly awry.

In any case, as for If On a Winter's Night, I was going to make a comment along the lines of: "Aw darn, now that it's a group discussion, I can't just skim the boring parts!", which of course the first few pages is.

Well, it can't continue like that for the entire book, surely... ;)
Some of it is rather humorous, I find, like the bit about the Books. We know all about that, don't we? Reminded me of Borges, too, that bit.

I especially loved this bit, btw:
but this relative relief is then undermined by the ambush of the Books Read Long Ago Which It's Now Time To Reread and the Books You've Always Pretended To Have Read And Now It's Time To Sit Down And Really Read Them.

I felt like Calvino had read my mind, and here he is exposing my shame openly.

Truth be told, I have books that I read long ago when I was too little to really understand, and books which I never completely finished.

I feel Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury winking at me especially acutely right now... :P

(view spoiler)[ You cast another bewildered look at the books around you (or, rather: it was the books that looked at you, with the bewildered gaze of dogs who, from their cages in the city pound, see a former companion go off on the leash of his master, come to rescue him), and out you went. :D (hide spoiler)]

Hmm, maybe I should have mentioned that the 'novel' is rather experimental; it's written in the second person ("You"-viewpoint as opposed to the first person "I" or the third person "he/she" viewpoint) - something which one rarely sees in a novel.

How do you people feel about this? I'd be interested in your reactions when you read the first few pages.

In any case, do persevere, he does eventually start to focus on a story that is not just about you reading the book. :)

Best wishes for your mother, Traveller.

Looking over at Wikipedia, Calvino was a member of Oulipo, so this will be my first Oulipo read. Per the article, Calvino cites Vladimir Nabokov as a general influence, and Mikhail Bulgakov, Yasunari Kawabata, Jun'ichirō Tanizaki, Juan Rulfo, José María Arguedas, Jorge Luis Borges and G.K. Chesterton as having influenced, in various ways, the narrative style of the ten stories that comprise the book. "[T]he structure of the text is said to be an adaptation of the structural semiology of A.J. Greimas." (Semiotics, hmmm.) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_on_a...)

Looking forward to reading this this weekend. (Look at me, starting the group read behind - I can be taught!)

Traveller wrote: "Truth be told, I have books that I read long ago when I was too little to really understand, and books which I never completely finished."

This. Here lately I have been feeling like my brain is a sieve, and I wonder if I have ever really read anything at all. I have so much I want to read, but I almost feel like I have to go back and reread everything I've ever read (the important stuff anyway) so I can understand the new stuff. (I reread Macbeth last month and there was a line that I immediately recognized from a favorite song that I had never pegged as an allusion before. Not like I've never read Macbeth, you know?) So it sounds like from what you're saying there that parts of this book will skewer me. Good to know.

Well, I think Calvino drops a lot of commentary about various things in the book, which we need to be aware of - it might just look like senseless prattle at times, but right at the start already, for example, he is of course being extremely postmodern and breaking the forth wall there - I mean how much father can you break the fourth wall than talking to the reader about his/her experience of reading the same text he is referring to himself!

But he also makes a commentary on "how" he feels we should read a text- remember, those lit crit discussions we've had in other discussions about "how" we should be experiencing a text - he comments about the phenomenon of how readers start to 'label' and almost "pigeon hole" a favorite author - of how we build up expectations about certain authors, and like he says, when we buy more of that author we want to see more of what we're used to.

He says, that in the case of this book, as you try and identify 'familiar' features in this new Calvino novel, you probably go through the following process:

Let's see. Perhaps at first you feel a bit lost, as when a person appears who, from the name, you identified with a certain face, and you try to make the features you are seeing tally with those you had in mind, and it won't work. But then you go on and you realize that the book is readable nevertheless, independently of what you expected of the author, [emphasis mine] it's the book in itself that arouses your curiosity; in fact, on sober reflection, you prefer it this way, confronting something and not quite knowing yet what it is.

So in a way, he might have made an attempt at what is called "defamiliarising" - in the very fact of being with you there in your face, he is giving us nothing of this novel we were promised, and so, we almost feel we have to fight for getting to this darn novel he keeps promising us.

But he's also warning us - and even worse, demonstrating to us, that we should not have preconceptions, and should not expect anything familiar.

Defamiliarisation was a technique coined by playwright Berthold Brecht and the Russian formalists, which represents a technique of constantly pulling the reader out of the text and making him aware that it is a text - it's something I am not personally fond of, but the idea is supposed to be that it forces the readers to think about the themes presented in the text more intellectually rather than to approach the text and the characters in an emotional way.

...but as Amy mentioned, all of this in the case of Calvino, would tie back to his being part of the Oulipo movement which was experimental in these kinds of ways.

Do any of you feel that these techniques make you feel uncomfortable? irritated? intrigued? maybe even entertained?

Oh, sorry to hear about your mother, Traveler! I hope she's doing better shortly!

As to your last question, I would actually argue that If On a Winter's Night a Traveler is only one of the most fun and delightful books ever written, but then I'm perhaps overly charmed by formal experimentation. However, where some of it comes off as a dusty exercise in the hands of other writers, Calvino manages to inject so much life into his structures. Borges is a good comparison, but I'd actually say that Calvino is the more playful of the two. His works are a dance with the reader.

(I've read this one twice, I'd even hazard that it's my favorite of his, though it's neck and neck with Invisible Cities.)

I'm glad I didn't know anything about how it starts or I might have never started it. As it is I find myself caught up in the oddity of it and actually enjoying it. But I don't have an automatic bias against books written in second person (though this one seems to have at least 3 POVs; oh, there can't be more than three? Hmmm), I did make it through and even enjoyed Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas by Tom Robbins.
But, yes, I do notice a similarity with Borges, though so far I like this better. It's early days yet, I am only on page 13.

Nate D wrote: "Oh, sorry to hear about your mother, Traveler! I hope she's doing better shortly!

As to your last question, I would actually argue that If On a Winter's Night a Traveler is only one of the most fu..."

Thanks Nate and Amy.
It's good to hear that you loved this enough to read it twice, Nate! Reading that gives the rest of us courage, eh gang?

@ Ruth: many points of view indeed, since even his first-person viewpoint isn't quite the one we're used to...

Right at the beginning, it felt as if the author was talking to us; manipulating us, and later, it's a character from the book that is talking to us, referring to the author and his tricks.

It almost feels like watching one of those animated comics strips, where it's like a conventional comic strip in a newspaper at first, and the character(s) start moving and climbing out of the picture frames.

Hi Trav,
Sorry to hear about your mum! If they've decided that they have to do it, it means they can, so that's good. And people look horrible when they come out of it, but hour by hour you can see them improving! So have faith!

I haven't been reading this one, but seeing this thread makes me think that I need to frustrate my goals of paring "Currently Reading" down to one or two and go get a copy!

Fuentes does an entire short novella called "Aura" in 2nd person, and the effect is very odd. I'm not certain as to what he's getting at, because the character isn't addressing the reader directly (breaking that wall), but rather it's as though he were speaking to the narrator, or the narrator were speaking to himself.

Linda wrote: "Hi Trav,
Sorry to hear about your mum! If they've decided that they have to do it, it means they can, so that's good. And people look horrible when they come out of it, but hour by hour you can see..."

Thanks, Linda. (view spoiler)[ Well, apparently they can't actually do it yet, because the damage is too severe, and she needs to recover some? I don't know... I'll hear what my sibling whose field that is, has to say. (hide spoiler)]

Back to IOAWNAT: In this case, the effect is also pretty odd; first, it's as if the author/narrator is speaking about the reader, and then one of the characters starts speaking about both the author and the reader. Very meta. ...and he somehow actually seems to weave a plot into all this commentary!

I so wish I could have joined in this discussion group because IOWNAT is one of the most unique books I've ever read. When I have time to reread it I will visit this thread to read everyone's thoughts on it.

Traveller wrote: "Unfortunately, I got news earlier on today that my mother survived a massive heart attack and is in hospital where she will require bypass surgery. I'm waiting to try and see if I'll have to fly up..."

Goodness, Trav, sorry to hear! Sending you some strength through the internet waves *zoom* *zoom*

Traveller wrote: "Unfortunately, I got news earlier on today that my mother survived a massive heart attack and is in hospital where she will require bypass surgery.

So sorry to hear it. I don't know if sympathy from a bunch of internet strangers does any good, but here it is nonetheless: Hope she has a reasonable recovery, and hope you and the rest of your family are alright.

Thanks, guys; I just thought I would mention it so you know there's a reason if I suddenly go AWOL...

Yolande; if you've already read it, I am sure you'd enjoy everyone's comments, so do pop in every now and then, even if you don't reread it!

Gosh, Trav, I'm so sorry about your worries over your mother. I hope she gets the treatment she needs for full recovery.

Regarding the experimental nature of this book, I read it a couple of months ago. I think the thing that's most useful to note is that the chapters alternate between numbered ones and ones with titles: the numbered ones are the framing story and the the titled ones are the books being read. Sort of. Anything more than that risks spoilers.

Cecily wrote: "Regarding the experimental nature of this book, I read it a couple of months ago. I think the thing that's most useful to note is that the chapters alternate between numbered ones and ones with tit..."

DOes it remind you of "Hopscotch", Cecily? :D

Best wishes for your mother, Traveller.

I don't think I'm going to be reading this one, but I just thought I should post a link to this short story (originally written in Chinese) that showed up last week on Clarkesworld:

If on a Winter’s Night a Traveler

Linda wrote: "DOes it remind you of "Hopscotch", Cecily? :D "

It didn't, and, assuming you mean the playground game, now you mention it, I see what you mean - but only a bit.

Cecily wrote: "Linda wrote: "DOes it remind you of "Hopscotch", Cecily? :D "

It didn't, and, assuming you mean the playground game, now you mention it, I see what you mean - but only a bit."

Actually, I meant the novel by Cortazar (thought that perhaps since you're big on Borges, you'd have read it).
The story tells of two couples, one in Argentina one in Europe. They mirror each other. The chapters are not presented in chronological order. The author instructs the reader at the beginning: you may read the chapters in order by "hopping" to this page, then that page, etc. Or, you may "hop" back and forth between the two couples by reading the chapters in the order in which he presented them.

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "
Looking over at Wikipedia, Calvino was a member of Oulipo, so this will be my first Oulipo read. Per the article, Calvino cites Vladimir Nabokov as a general influence, and Mikhail Bulgakov, Yasunari Kawabata, Jun'ichirō Tanizaki, Juan Rulfo, José María Arguedas, Jorge Luis Borges and G.K. Chesterton as having influenced, in various ways, the narrative style of the ten stories that comprise the book. "[T]he structure of the text is said to be an adaptation of the structural semiology of A.J. Greimas."."

Sorry, Amy, I had meant to thank you for your research and your info there. So much to think about and write about!

Quite a reading list there! Him being Italian, slightly shifts the focus that a person with an Anglophone background would have had, but there's nevertheless many familiar names there.

Yeah, Semiotics! Italians really seem into semiotics, don't they? ;)

Thanks, Cecily and Derek. That story you linked to looks interesting, Derek.

Ah, Hopscotch by Julio Cortázar! It's been on the TBR for ages, but I forgot about it. Thanks for reminding, Linda!

Cecily wrote: "Regarding the experimental nature of this book, I read it a couple of months ago. I think the thing that's most useful to note is that the chapters alternate between numbered ones and ones with tit..."

I am sure that is going to help, thanks, Cecily! I'm not as patient as I used to be with 'different' books.

Calvino is taking a rather tortuous route to try and get a message across to people just like us: that we must never forget the anticipatory delight to be had from not knowing what we'll find when we open a book.

I must admit, that for me, the 'not knowing' is the strongest motivation for reading.
...but this is not the only delight I personally get from reading - to me, a lot of it is the journey.

I see this as a book about reading, and I must admit that when starting to read it, I had to force myself not to look up anything about it. Of course, this is the kind of book where its reputation precedes it, but I suppose nothing can substitute for actually reading it, eh?

Speaking of reputation - has anybody around here read some Calvino before, and if so, which ones?

How do the straight/bi females (ok, let's not discriminate against our lesbian readers, you too!)... let me rephrase - how do the female and gay readers among you feel about him assuming that you, Reader, will be attracted to a Young Lady! :P

Ok, this is not an outing session - let's include everybody here; males and females of all orientations - I don't know, I'm just saying that he's assuming a lot, eh?

Traveller wrote: "...this is not an outing session"

Haha, I can just imagine.

I suppose because I am not a lesbian, for that kind of thing I usually assume the author is assuming that the reader is male.

Yolande wrote: "I suppose because I am not a lesbian, for that kind of thing I usually assume the author is assuming that the reader is male. .."

I assume he is, and don't you find that with that, he excludes probably half his readership? I'm used to "being a man" when I game - having to be one when I read novels as well, feels like a bit much. :P

I imagine, though, that part of what Calvino conveys with the little romantic intrigue, is how literature becomes something shared between readers of it.

Traveller wrote: "Yolande wrote: "I suppose because I am not a lesbian, for that kind of thing I usually assume the author is assuming that the reader is male. .."

I assume he is, and don't you find that with that,..."

I feel like he does exclude us too. Funny you should say that, when I read your comment the first thought that came into my head was the game I play 'Test Drive Unlimited 2" where even as I'm playing a woman character, the models you have to pick up and get to their venues on time, as some of the things you can do for money, keep flirting with me so I know what you mean :p

Traveller wrote: "How do the straight/bi females... feel about him assuming that you, Reader, will be attracted to a Young Lady..."

It didn't bother me at all, which is quite a clever writerly trick, given that it's more direct than reading a first-person story by a man.

Traveller wrote: "I see this as a book about reading"

Very much so, but it also becomes a book about writing.

Cecily wrote: "Traveller wrote: "How do the straight/bi females... feel about him assuming that you, Reader, will be attracted to a Young Lady..."

It didn't bother me at all, which is quite a clever writerly tri..."

I read this book so long ago but when reading I don't think it bothered me either actually. I'll have to read that again to see what impression I get now.

Maybe I just immersed myself more strongly in my role as "Reader" than the two of you did. :D I was really seeing myself as Reader and preening my feathers up to that moment that the text says: "You can leave the bookshop content, you, a man..." :P
That's where that aspect of the experiment ended for me, and Reader became, like Cecily said, just one of the characters instead of a hypothetical "me"; which is how Calvino might have intended it all along, but if he had really intended for the reader to identify with Reader, that was the point where he lost me. Note that he keeps age, status and profession open still, though, so I suppose for males it would still work at this point.

Cecily wrote: "Very much so, but it also becomes a book about writing.."

Ah, yes, that it is too, of course; he does those bits more in the parts where he tells the "story", right?

Yolande wrote: "Traveller wrote: "...this is not an outing session"

Haha, I can just imagine.

I suppose because I am not a lesbian, for that kind of thing I usually assume the author is assuming that the reader is male..."

Yup, and I find that very annoying!

Traveller wrote: "Maybe I just immersed myself more strongly in my role as "Reader" than the two of you did. :D I was really seeing myself as Reader and preening my feathers up to that moment that the text says: "Yo..."

I don't remember any specifics but what I do remember was that I was really immersed in the me as Reader part. But the young lady bit I don't remember. I will really have to reread. I don't remember enough to comment reliably!

Is anyone reading it in the original Italian? I´m guessing it would be really obvious from the beginning, that he defaulted to a masculine reader. César Aira does something similar with his ¨How I Became a Nun¨-since Spanish is a gender-specific language, it was really confusing at first. The narrator refers to himself as a girl (all adjectives in the feminine) with the other characters referring to him as a boy. A really interesting little book.

No, but my wife read it in French, which has similar properties. I'll try to remember to ask her about that.

Yolande wrote: "I suppose because I am not a lesbian..."

Ruth wrote: "Yup, and I find that very annoying!..."

Fear not; apparently all women are at least a little bit lesbian, according to a story this week: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-3474...

;)

Ruth wrote: "No, but my wife read it in French, which has similar properties. I'll try to remember to ask her about that."

Thanks! It would be. It´ll be interesting to see if English-speaking readers are rather ¨late to the party¨ in that sense.

Linda wrote: "Ruth wrote: "No, but my wife read it in French, which has similar properties. I'll try to remember to ask her about that."

Thanks! It would be. It´ll be interesting to see if English-speaking read..."

I suspect we would be. We lose out a lot not only WRT the Romance languages, but with Japanese t/lations as well.

Read this book a few times but last was many years ago, so go on memory of the text, must note that this was not a book searched for or known about or anticipating experimental prose. read it again before read about it. insist this writing is essentially postmodern in being fun and ironic and playful to read... will never understand those readers who find it 'difficult'...

I am really enjoying it so far, but I do regret that it is going to get the male gaze tag from me (not a deal breaker for me at all; many excellent works I love carry it). An author really can't do this 'you' thing, make the 'you' a man, then expect me not to call him on it. The attraction to the lady Other Reader was not it; it was the place he specified the Reader is a man. (No doubt it's true this point would have been immediately apparent in the original language, but I don't think that would change the effect too much.)

Curiously, the struggles with real world books also distance me quite noticeably from the Reader, as on an ereader I would not have had his 'shops aren't open' problem. (This is not a complaint, just an observation on my reaction as I read.)

His observations of the actual reading, the wrestling with the text, are spot on for me, though. Those are excellent.

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Curiously, the struggles with real world books also distance me quite noticeably from the Reader, as on an ereader I would not have had his 'shops aren't open' problem. (This is not a complaint, just an observation on my reaction as I read.)..."

Well, before e-books appeared, and even now with them, I have always adored book stores, and will still easily spend hours in them given the chance. Also, the adventures in the bookstores (except for the bits about the books being incorrectly bound - but even those could happen in a library), could all conceivably happen in a library. So I felt very amused.

I had to laugh at the legions of books assaulting the reader, you know, he makes it sound like military maneuvers, and honestly, sometimes I feel like I'm doing tactical maneuvers to try and deal with the onslaught of that intimidating TBR pile...

but then you are attacked by the infantry of the Books That If You Had More Than One Life You Would Certainly Also Read But Unfortunately Your Days Are Numbered. With a rapid maneuver you bypass them and move into the phalanxes of the Books You Mean To Read But There Are Others You Must Read First, the Books Too Expensive Now And You'll Wait Till They're Remaindered, the Books ditto When They Come Out In Paperback, Books You Can Borrow From Somebody, Books That Everybody's Read So It's As If You Had Read Them, Too. Eluding these assaults, you come up beneath the towers of the fortress, where other troops are holding out: the Books You've Been Planning To Read For Ages, the Books You've Been Hunting For Years Without Success, the Books Dealing With Something You're Working On At The Moment, the Books You Want To Own So They'll Be Handy Just In Case, the Books You Could Put Aside Maybe To Read This Summer, the Books You Need To Go With Other Books On Your Shelves, the Books That Fill You With Sudden, Inexplicable Curiosity, Not Easily Justified.

I hope your mum is ok Traveller! Best wishes for her and you and your family. Thanks for starting the thread.

Traveller wrote: "Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Curiously, the struggles with real world books also distance me quite noticeably from the Reader, as on an ereader I would not have had his 'shops aren't open' problem. (Thi..."

Now I KNOW I Have to start this book! I know exactly what most of those feel like! :D

Nate D wrote: "As to your last question, I would actually argue that If On a Winter's Night a Traveler is only one of the most fun and delightful books ever written, but then I'm perhaps overly charmed by formal experimentation."

I agree with you, Nate. I find it wonderful. (I should probably say that I tend to like a work better when it demands some distance. An unnamed or misnamed narrator, epistolic narrative structure, self-referential meta-narrative, things of this nature are the way to my heart as a reader. When a book gets too chummy or goes for the heartstrings with emotional manipulation I want nothing to do with it, but when it goes for the intellectual manipulation I will entertain it all day gladly. I think I am in the minority of readers, here.)

Cecily wrote: "Regarding the experimental nature of this book, I read it a couple of months ago. I think the thing that's most useful to note is that the chapters alternate between numbered ones and ones with tit..."

Thanks, Cecily. That helped.

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I don't think I'm going to be reading this one, but I just thought I should post a link to this short story (originally written in Chinese) that showed up last week on Clarkesworld"

Thanks for that, Derek. That was a lovely little story.

Traveller wrote: "Sorry, Amy, I had meant to thank you for your research and your info there. So much to think about and write about!"

No apologies needed, and no trouble to me to do :) It's nice to have a place to park my little investigations where they may be of some use to others. You make a good point about the shift in the reading background being Italian; I was pleased to find that all of the ones I was unfamiliar with have books on the 1001 books to read before you die list (another project I am working on bit by bit), so I at least have them on my shelves and will get to them eventually.

Linda wrote: "Now I KNOW I Have to start this book! I know exactly what most of those feel like! :D"

Most definitely, Linda; it is very good.

Traveller wrote: "Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Well, before e-books appeared, and even now with them, I have always adored book stores, and will still easily spend hours in them given the chance. Also, the adventures in the bookstores (except for the bits about the books being incorrectly bound - but even those could happen in a library), could all conceivably happen in a library. So I felt very amused."

Oh, I definitely have had the real, world book sensations he describes, but since I'm reading this particular book on Kindle, the differences just jumped out at me. Also, I have had the experience of a defective ebook and sending it back, so that happens with an ereader as well, but the process is significantly different in that it can be accomplished in the dead of the night if you have a good wi-fi (though depending on the nature of the defect, you may or may not be able to get a replacement then).

Traveller wrote: "I had to laugh at the legions of books assaulting the reader, you know, he makes it sound like military maneuvers, and honestly, sometimes I feel like I'm doing tactical maneuvers to try and deal with the onslaught of that intimidating TBR pile..."

The passage you quoted is one of my favorite in the book so far, and I expect it to remain an all time favorite. He captures so perfectly the frustration of the mountains of books available and our sad attempts to make some sense of them. I had to laugh at myself, because so many of his designations correspond roughly to some of the shelves I have on GR :)

The disconnect came a little later, not when he was in the store, but after he needs to go back. Also, later, he talks about having to cut the pages of an uncut book. (I have owned I think all of four books of this nature in my life, and all of them had been cut before they got to me.) I only make note of the sensation because he is calling attention so insistently to the act of reading, and describing the reading experience of tree books in such detail, that I am forced as a reader to take immediate, detailed notice of the different experience of an ebook. I just thought it was interesting, is all. It doesn't detract from the work in the least.

**edited to add first reply**

Thanks Helen. :)

@ Amy- would you believe that I was one of those treebook die-hards for a few months when e-readers hit the market; I agreed with people who said Never! I love my treebooks! ...and now I have hundreds of e-books and never will I look back again...

As for the actual cutting of the pages - it has happened to me before that a brand-new book I bought had all the pages still connected to one another. Cutting the whole book's pages apart would have been quite a time-consuming task! (Not to mention, would have probably had an untidy result...)

Traveller wrote: "@ Amy- would you believe that I was one of those treebook die-hards for a few months when e-readers hit the market; I agreed with people who said Never! I love my treebooks! ...and now I have hundreds of e-books and never will I look back again..."

LOL. I was too. In fact I vividly remember telling a friend in college when he told me the technology was coming (this was well before it came out) that they would never be able to replicate the pleasure of reading a real book. I gave up and got a Kindle about five years ago when I realized I was going to have to do something about storage space and books. Now I have half my library in my purse and I would never want to live any other way! I'm such a silly girl :)

I found his description of cutting the pages rather fascinating, since I've never done it. It's like a history lesson to go with my po-mo reading pleasure.

Linda wrote: "Ruth wrote: "No, but my wife read it in French, which has similar properties. I'll try to remember to ask her about that."

Thanks! It would be. It´ll be interesting to see if English-speaking readers are rather "late to the party ..."

Yes, I would say those reading the English translation wouldn't get that the author assumes they are men until chapter 3 (that part that Traveller quoted) while those reading the original or a translation in a Latin-based language would get it as soon as the author addresses them directly as 'reader' (in the 2nd chapter) because he always uses the masculine form of 'reader'.

The funny thing is, on the back cover of Alex's French paperback, the blurb begins with "You, reader (m), you, reader (f)". So someone noticed. ;)

Ruth wrote: "Linda wrote: "Ruth wrote: "No, but my wife read it in French, which has similar properties. I'll try to remember to ask her about that."

Thanks! It would be. It´ll be interesting to see if English..."

Aha!

Traveller wrote: "Thanks Helen. :)

@ Amy- would you believe that I was one of those treebook die-hards for a few months when e-readers hit the market; I agreed with people who said Never! I love my treebooks! ...an..."

I'm old enough, and studying languages, came across that on more than one occasion. Somewhat of a hassle, and those editions were usually not done on the best quality paper, anyway!

Linda wrote: "I'm old enough, and studying languages, came across that on more than one occasion. Somewhat of a hassle, and those editions were usually not done on the best quality paper, anyway!."

The incident I mention was less than 10 years ago! :O I wish I can remember which book it was....