Heathens, Pagans and Witches discussion

Peeps and folks,
A couple of us, Old Barbarossa and me, are reading a couple of books on medieval magic over January or thereabouts. Titles are:

Magic in the Middle Ages


and

Magic and Medieval Society


This began because I mentioned these as my set texts for a unit on Religion, Magic and Sorcery in the Medieval World (University of New England, NSW, Oz). The esteemed Old Barb then went and bought the books and suggested a discussion thread.

Be great if any other persons can join in.

"Esteemed"? You crack me up.
Will read them in whatever order you fancy, or even interwoven.
Your call.
Will have them moved to the top of my pile in preparation for the onslaught.

I'll give them a look. I might be able to join in. Thanks for suggesting them.

Happy new year folks.
So Bryn...
What's 1st?
Had a browse at them and was thinking Magic and Medieval Society looks more of a primer so may be good for the 1st of the 2.
But am happy to go with either as I'm not exactly coming to the subject cold.
Ready when you are...

Let's do that Old Barb. I think Magic in the Middle Ages is more an attempt at interpretation, at hauling together the data into an explanatory framework. So yeah, seems right to start with the other one. Which features the set of documents at the end, primary sources, short outtakes.

I hope I won't be too remiss on this read as I scrabble to finish essays by any means possible next fortnight. Pardon if I am.

I'll start when you are ready.
No rush.

I'm on board. Here I am.

First off, I like the view on the 1st page, that magic is found in every sector: 'encountered across all classes and areas of medieval society'. Pretty mainstream, in other words.

Bryn wrote: "I'm on board. Here I am.

First off, I like the view on the 1st page, that magic is found in every sector: 'encountered across all classes and areas of medieval society'. Pretty mainstream, in oth..."

Just started it. Very entry level and I'd recommend (so far) for folk not too familiar with the subject. I like the glosses in the margins, nice touch in a primer.
As to the mainstream comment, Bryn, I think it could be compared to mobile tech now. Everyone uses it but some just use twitter, some use more complex networking features, some use their devices to the limit...OK, maybe not the best analogy...but I think in regards to the ubiquitousness of it close enough.

Just finished Ch1 and had a browse through the rest.
Noticed that there is very little "folk magic" in this...understandable due to lack of written records mind you.

It's funny to have the romances, tales of Arthur, used as source material. I didn't quite expect that. They don't have real material on a lot of practice, secretive or discreet as it was, and to imagine how magic was practiced they resort to the exaggerated but suggestive pictures of magicians in the romances. Or maybe I didn't understand how big Merlin was in the world outside fiction.

Bryn wrote: "It's funny to have the romances, tales of Arthur, used as source material. I didn't quite expect that. They don't have real material on a lot of practice, secretive or discreet as it was, and to im..."

In most Arthurian stuff both Arthur and Merlin tended to be peripheral to tales that while based round the court are mainly about the tests and quests of individual knights. Merlin was certainly viewed as the archetypal court magician though...the flash/bag wizard is more modern.
The focus (so far) on the ritual/astrological types of magic implies that all magicians are from an educated background, literate and numerate, and as education was only available through religious houses then all magicians have a xtian background (as fluid as that may have been on the peripheries of xtiandom).
From other reading I've done I noted that even much folk magic has a xtain flavour due to invocation of saints or use of scraps of prayers etc.

True; those knights run into frequent nigromancers in the woods; or knights who malpractice with magic, make themselves invisible for a unfair blow.

I wish they covered Norse practices, that might get us before/aside from xtianity, but I don't think they do.

I'm in the Universities chapter where we might get a bit Faustian. One guy rewrote the curriculum with the '... bold inclusion of necromancy among the traditional Liberal Arts.' p. 31

Bryn wrote: "I wish they covered Norse practices, that might get us before/aside from xtianity, but I don't think they do."

Seems to be pretty much Brit/Euro in focus. No Scandy stuff.
Plenty refs in the sagas to this though, and then there's the Icalandic necropants thing.

Bryn wrote: "I'm in the Universities chapter where we might get a bit Faustian. One guy rewrote the curriculum with the '... bold inclusion of necromancy among the traditional Liberal Arts.' p. 31"

And this is where the modern educational system is failing our young people...

:)
Necropants now? where do I buy them?

http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/...

Ahhhh. I don't buy them, I dig them up. Makes sense. I hope me being a woman is no impediment. Seems to be only the dead scrotum that matters.

Chap 4 on Magic and Secular Society turns to the unlearned and the 'magic of the poor'. Which left less material evidence since they ran to cheaper utensils 'which would be hard to distinguish from rubbish' when dug up.

Minor point...but for the cost of this text I'm a bit disappointed the illustrations/photos aren't colour.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Minor point...but for the cost of this text I'm a bit disappointed the illustrations/photos aren't colour."

I always agree on that point.

I have a strong preference for the Kieckhefer book of the two. Magic and Medieval Society's text I think is back up for its primary documents; the Kieckhefer Magic in the Middle Ages is more in-depth and has an argument. Plenty on the cross-cultures of magic; deep past in biblical, greek and roman; the pagan societies co-existing; then the influx of Arabic texts. He says he hasn't room for Jewish magic (I think).

Just started the chapter on "Magic and Secular Society".
I think I might agree with you, the big plus for me so far is the trans of primary sources contained in this.
Hope to start Magic in the Middle Ages by the weekend.

Just noted that Magic and Medieval Society has Magic in the Middle Ages in the bibliography and is ref'd in chapter 4.

Finished Magic and Medieval Society.
Review:
Interesting, but shallow, primer on the subject.
Photos could have been colour.
Good trans of primary sources.
Some simple terms defined in gloss next to text some others not.
On the whole a reasonable starting point for those new to the subject though.
Good bibliography for further reading.

Just starting Magic in the Middle Ages.
I love a bibliography that has stuff you've read in it...and stuff you want to get hold of.
Look forward to the section on "The art of trickery" and I now want to get a text on cup and balls by Kurt Volkmann...
But it's very rare and costs a mint...for a 48 page book :(
http://www.amazon.com/The-Oldest-Dece...

It has a better cover than the other one. (Latest edition, with crow).

Bryn wrote: "It has a better cover than the other one. (Latest edition, with crow)."

Aye...and good so far...but I don't like the font in the main body of the text...petty I know.

It's a bit cramped. They should have rejigged that with the new ed.

Still on this...actual reality has interrupted the reading.
We've had wild storms coming though.
On the plus side I have seen some very nice skies with nacreous clouds...or as the Irish Times put it: "Magical Rainbow Clouds"
I am now checking for feckin unicorns...
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/enviro...

The chapter (2) on xtian magic, and views on magic, is a very good summary of things that other books take an age to explain.
So far this is worth the price of admission alone.

Glad it's worth the price for you, Old Barb. Weather's bizarre in my convict exile too (sorry to other Australians, talking like that. I haven't stamped out the Brit in me). On the plus side, I have seen amazing seas.

Finished Magic in the Middle Ages.
The better of the 2 books I think.
Very good overview. Eurocentric, but this is excusable as it is a slim volume.
Very good distillations of information, particularly on xtain magic (chapter 2) and the last chapter which covers the evolution of the witch hunts and the legality of things (church and secular authority on the issue etc).
Black and white illustrations though.
Very good bibliography and index, but no maps.