Tournament of Books discussion

And now on to Week 2 of the Alternative Tournament of Books!

Today is Round 6, judged by Jo, who chose between Naomi Jackson's novel Landfalls and Fran Ross's Oreo.

Here's a link to Jo's decision:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g...

And here's a link to our tournament brackets:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y...

Thank you, Jo!

Landfalls vs. Oreo

Judged by Jo:

Naomi J. Williams' Landfalls, a striking first novel, is a fictional take on a famous eighteenth-century French expedition that ended in disaster, so a certain melancholic, elegiac tone is present from the start, if not in the text, in our knowledge that all the enthusiasm, goodwill and intellectual curiosity of the journey's participants will end in tragedy.

It's a beautifully written story divided into fourteen chapters each of which is told from the point of view of a different member of the expedition. The chapters, however, are not as subjective or as exploratory of the character whose point of view they deploy as one would imagine. Ultimately, they all really talk about the expedition, with the exception, obviously, of chapters that take place away from the expedition, like "Dispatches."

Still, at the end of the day, this read to me as a pretty straightforward narrative of eighteenth-century exploration, with a hefty dose (but don't all these narratives have it?) of male relationships and male drama. Since Williams had carte blanche when it came to the particulars of the story, one (or I) would have expected a bit more adventure when the ship's men land and interact with the various people who live at their landing ports. But the stories are moderate and genteel: polite and ceremonial encounters with colonists of various nations, indifferent encounters with original populations, nothing much to write home about.

Ultimately, this book left me wanting so much more: more adventure, more insight into "exploration" of lands that are perfectly known to someone else, Western arrogance, and colonization. These don't seem to have been Williams' focus though. She seems genuinely enamored of the sailing itself, of the science, of what brings men together to get out to sea and find out more than they already know.

If you are passionate about maritime adventure you will love this book (though I must say that there is also very little maritime adventure here, the book being mainly focused on the accounts of what happens when the ships make landfall -- as the title indicates). I myself put maritime adventure low on the list of the things that tickle my fancy, so this didn't speak to me a whole lot. Here is something that spoke to me, though: the two captains, Lapérouse and de Langle, are examples of kindness, fairness, dignity and generosity, and I was surprised that a book published in cynical, post-everything 2015 took such lovely pains to celebrate the goodness of these men.

I confess to feeling terribly inadequate to speak about Oreo, a sprawling, larger-than-life, razzle dazzle, ahead-of-its-time, crazy romp of a book. Oreo was first published in 1974 during the height of the Black Arts movement. Fran Ross, the author, saw this book disappear and never wrote another one (I'm not connecting the two events). It has recently been brought back into print by the loving efforts of Harryette Mullin, whose afterword is definitely worth a read.

Christine Clark, or Oreo, is the novel's protagonist. Her family on her father's side is Jewish and on her mother's side is African American, so part of what this book does is explore the intersection of these two American identities. But what we have here is not realist, traditional narrative. Its inspiration is the classic Greek saga of Theseus' search for his father, here reenacted in Oreo's journey from Philadelphia to New York, and her various adventures within New York City. The city, which we see through the irreverent, bawdy, immensely original eyes of Oreo, is a cauldron of peoples and mores. The most salient feature of this extraordinary novel is its language; a mixture of Yiddish and African American dialect, of course, but also a minestrone of punning, plays on words, erudition, haute cuisine, French, American slang, Latin, and other ingredients I possibly missed. Ultimately, therefore, the joy of Oreo resides more in its linguistic exuberance than in the adventures it portrays.

A caveat. As an Italian who moved to the United States as an adult, I am both phylogenetically and ontogenetically unprepared for a book like Oreo. The vast majority of its humor eluded me; the punning fell flat on my ears; a good fifth of the language was beyond my comprehension (this last I expect to be the case for most readers: keep reading, reader, or keep Merriam-Webster handy!). I'm saying all this because I am not the ideal reader for this book, so I cannot say that I really, truly enjoyed it. What I can say is that it left me dizzy with admiration. I am hugely grateful that this staggering masterpiece was brought back to literary life and I hope more capable readers than I will get to enjoy it. (P.S. Since reading Oreo I have been talking strange, with bizarre associations and surreal turns of phrase; this may happen to you too).

Oreo gets my enthusiastic nod.

I’m so glad I got to read these two books, which could hardly make for different reading experiences. Landfalls grabbed me right away, and I was super happy reading for the first half or so. I loved the way the narrator took a God-like view of events and told us, now and then, what would happen in the future. Something about knowing what would happen to (some of) these characters made me want to read on more rather than less. Jo’s description of the tone as melancholic and elegiac is perfect. And, like judge Jo, I was caught up in the story of the two captains and their friendship. The second half lost some steam, I thought, and the insights from the narrator that I liked so much seemed to drop out.

I would have picked Oreo as the winner as well. It’s a one-of-a-kind, unlike Landfalls, which covers some familiar ground (or ocean, in this case!). As Jo says, Oreo is a “crazy romp” for sure. It’s enough to make one’s head spin – for me, in a good way. Jo’s comment about not being the right audience for this book makes me wonder, who is the right audience? Probably no one is equipped to get all the jokes and references. But I was left “dizzy with admiration” as Jo says, and grateful this book was reissued.

I’m very curious to hear what others made of these two books, but especially of Oreo, a book that has the potential to be controversial.

Thanks, Jo, for a great judgment here!

Jo, I was born and raised in the U.S., lived here all my life, and was a young adult (with pretentious reading tastes) when Oreo was originally published. Much of it still goes over my head! I'm not very far into it yet but it is very enjoyable so far. I loved Landfalls (although it did lose momentum in the second half) but I agree with your choice.

thank you so much for your thoughtful commentary, jo!
and for getting the thread created, rebecca!

Jo wrote: "Oreo gets my enthusiastic nod. "

jo, your comments made me realize (again) how untranslatable a lot of books are, especially humor, it seems. I can't imagine what a translator would do with Oreo. I agree with Dree that a lot of Oreo is not completely comprehensible. There really isn't a "native speaker" of Oreo's language. A lot of the humor has to do with the notion of culture and identity and the character of Oreo belongs to a culture of just two people, herself and her brother, and her brother speaks only a dialect, perhaps, of Oreo's language. Oreo is for the most part a culture of 1 and not being able to understand her felt to me like part of that identity being revealed on the page.

For anyone who loved Oreo I recommend picking up The Flowers by Dagoberto Gilb. It's another unfairly-neglected book with a young American polyglot protagonist, who in this case speaks a mix of English and Spanish and French and Gilb doesn't bother to translate it all for the reader--part of the fun of the book as with Oreo is linguistic confusion.

I hope more people here find time to read Oreo, as well. I hope it makes the short list!

Thanks for the Dagoberto Gilb recommendation, Poingu. It sounds fascinating. I wonder if people's response to Oreo depends at least in part on their willingness to not understand everything. I don't like to look things up when I'm reading, usually, and I don't mind if I miss references and allusions, at least now and then, or don't understand the language fully. But a reader who wants to be more conscientious than I might find it frustrating. I love the idea of Oreo being a culture of one. I liked how mysterious her mind felt to me.

Thanks, Jo and Rebecca. I felt frustrated by Landfalls until Poingu shared an interview that let me know the author viewed the book as linked short stories rather than as a novel.

I read Oreo with my iPad open to the dictionary & a mythology wiki...man, that book made me work!!! In the abstract, I admired and appreciated the humor, although I didn't find the book especially funny, if that makes any sense. I still have huge affection for the character and the book and feel devastated that Fran Ross died so young, without having found her audience. She truly seems like someone who was ahead of her time.

Poingu, thanks for the pointer to The Flowers. I love Junot Diaz for his untranslated Spanish, although it sounds like Gilb does it with longer passages?

Jan wrote: "Poingu, thanks for the pointer to The Flowers. I love Junot Diaz for his untranslated Spanish, although it sounds like Gilb does it with longer passages? "

Jan, I read The Flowers a while ago and want to re-read (eventually) (ha). But the way I remember it, it's quite Oreo-like, where the word play and polyglot-ness of the protagonist are embedded in each sentence, in short bursts, and a lot can get past you even though it's written primarily for an English speaking audience.

For example the protagonist lives in an apartment complex called "Los Flores." That will mean nothing or will be jarring or will be funny depending on who is reading and what their relationship with the Spanish language is.

Jan wrote: "Thanks, Jo and Rebecca. I felt frustrated by Landfalls until Poingu shared an interview that let me know the author viewed the book as linked short stories rather than as a novel.

I read Oreo wit..."

So interesting about Landfalls as linked short stories. I wonder why it wasn't marketed that way? Well, I guess people are more likely to pick up a novel rather than stories, so that's the answer, but I don't like how that kind of marketing decision can lead to misunderstandings and possibly poorer reading experiences for some people. I like linked short stories, myself, which is probably one reason I responded well to this book (for the most part).

As for reading Oreo with the dictionary, etc., I'd like to reread the novel that way one day. I'm glad I read it without any help the first time through, just to get an immediate impression and for the experience to feel less like work, but I'm sure doing some research on it would help me appreciate it more. (I guess? Can't know until I try...)

The Flowers is one of my favorite books ever. soooooo sweet. but i don't see how you can compare it to Oreo, poingu! for one, it's not particularly funny is it? and definitely now bawdy....

so, this is something about me: i really don't like puns and plays on words. at all. they are just not fun to me, and they are pretty irritating too.

and here's another thing about me: i don't like picaresque. Oreo has a lot of picaresque in it.

as for not understanding the language, i'm fairly comfortable with it and in fact sometimes i like it, but i feel -- don't know if you guys feel this way too -- that there are a ton of cultural in-jokes in the book, and those went right over my head.

but then again, this is the strength of the book isn't it? fran ross is very very determined to help the reader not at all. in fact, it seems to me, she is hell-bent on some sort of aesthetic irritation, on major provocation, the whole of which culminates in the VERY STRONG (imo) non-rape scene. i mean, do you guys have feelings about that scene? i had to drag myself through it, cuz it was so fucking painful. and it was meant to be funny!

jo wrote: "The Flowers is one of my favorite books ever. soooooo sweet. but i don't see how you can compare it to Oreo, poingu!"

For the alienation via language, the experience was very similar to me in these two books. As a native English speaker of whatever the equivalent of Queen's English is for Americans, I felt equally alienated and "othered" by both reads. It's tricky and wonderful for an author of color to displace a "majority" reader that way in their own "native language."

jo wrote: "the whole of which culminates in the VERY STRONG (imo) non-rape scene. i mean, do you guys have feelings about that scene? i had to drag myself through it, cuz it was so fucking painful. and it was meant to be funny! ."

I'm not sure it was meant to be funny. It's a very painful, complicated scene. I'm also not sure how much I like satire though when I come to a scene like this, a scene that is trying to unpry something so very ugly up from the dirt and make us look at it anew. What saves it for me is its utter un-relation to reality. Women get raped and live in fear of getting raped. But here is this young woman, who not only does not get raped, but isn't afraid of getting raped. She is unrape-able. The impossibility of her character-- the impossibility of any woman ever in any culture living without fear of being raped--is what makes this a powerful scene for me, first because Fran Ross had the audacity to write such a character, and second because the impossibility of an unrape-able woman existing in the real world drives home how vulnerable women are in a weird and different way.

poingu wrote: For the alienation via language, the experience was very similar to me in these two books. As a native English speaker of whatever the equivalent of Queen's English is for Americans, I felt equally alienated and "othered" by both reads. It's tricky and wonderful for an author of color to displace a "majority" reader that way in their own "native language."

i'm sorry, i realize it came out not in a nice way. i find Flowers a realist, straight-up book and Oreo, dang, it's just like this absolutely linguistic extravaganza, you know? but also i understood the spanish in Flowers, so i didn't feel alienated in quite the same way. i'm trying to think of a book like Oreo and i can't, probably partly because i stay away from comic literature.

your analysis of the un-rape scene is so smart. maybe i said it was funny cuz of oreo's tone in narrating it. she's so... spunky you know? like a super-hero. hey maybe that's another thing this book is, a sort of super-hero comic book.

her un-rapability goes hand in hand with the sexual captivity of the women in the brothel, for whom she in fact becomes a kind of hero. which is, entirely, what you said. smart.

Jo, thanks for your thoughtful judgement. I am currently reading Landfalls and am enjoying it, but Oreo I just loved. I don't think that Landfalls will top it.

I was visiting my mother as I was reading Oreo last week, and I kept telling her about it and reading bits allowed to her. I don't 'get' all the reference, but it had such a sense of joy and fun. I know that satire can be tricky, and some works for me and some doesn't. (I just got back from seeing "Book of Mormon" at the beginning of the month and thoroughly enjoyed it. On the other hand, "South Park" wears thin.) Ross's satire worked for me. I did get a pretty concerned when the pimp caught her but I though it was brilliant that she became a super-hero using her WIT and her protected wedge as woop-ass weapons. :o)

Jane from B.C. wrote: "satire can be tricky, and some works for me and some doesn't. "

Yes! Quite often satire makes me so uncomfortable especially when I'm laughing at something horrible.

Somehow I didn't feel upset by Oreo. But another long list book, The Sellout, left me feeling very uncomfortable. I'm still unsettled by that book because when it made me laugh it also made me feel complicit with racist beliefs. The discomfort I felt was extreme. I credit Paul Beatty for creating an extreme tangle of feelings in me, rather than discredit him for confusing me that way, but as with Oreo or any other satire the reader's response is going to depend on the very unique intersection of one writer and one reader.

jo wrote: "maybe i said it was funny cuz of oreo's tone in narrating it. she's so... spunky you know? like a super-hero. hey maybe that's another thing this book is, a sort of super-hero comic book. "

jo, I don't think there is a right way to read this book. Your discomfort with this scene is not only a valid response, but a valuable one.

I think a lot about how we used to live in a world where literature = wealthy white male writers talking with equally wealthy white male readers; naturally they could imagine one "right" way to think about responses to literature. Now we're all over the map, where any dialog between one writer and one reader has the chance to become a unique conversation with its own validity.

When I think about these two books btw the one that offended me was Landfalls! Given the pre-tournament conversation about Landfalls here in this group, I was the only one to feel that way. I reacted strongly to the change to a simpler syntax in the "Snow Men" chapter--it struck me as condescending in the extreme. I realize that the author was trying to be respectful of a different way of life by making the voice different in that chapter but to me it was offensive, as if non-Europeans couldn't think syntactically complicated thoughts.

poingu wrote: "But another long list book, The Sellout, left me feeling very uncomfortable."

I have yet to read "The Sellout". I just have too many books, stacked up now. I feel that I have done pretty well this year to get to Oreo, Welcome to Braggsville, and Delicious Foods because of the alt-TOB and Loving Day prior to it. However if The Sellout makes the ToB list tomorrow, I will probably seek it out.

so, okay, those of you who loved Landfalls: would you say a few words about what you loved in it, what made you tick, what spoke to you?

jo wrote: "those of you who loved Landfalls: would you say a few words about what you loved in it..?"
Second that request! until Poingu's note, it seemed to be the one alt.TOB selection universally liked and I don't get why just from the premise.

Amy wrote: "jo wrote: "those of you who loved Landfalls: would you say a few words about what you loved in it..?"
Second that request! until Poingu's note, it seemed to be the one alt.TOB selection universally..."

I didn't LOVE Landfalls, but I did like it. There was something about the narration and the way the narrator would tell us what the fates of some of the characters would be that I liked. It seems like jumping ahead in the story would make everything less compelling, but it made everything feel fated and doomed and that made me feel interest and compassion for characters I might not have responded to otherwise. I liked the shifting viewpoints as well, getting the story from different angles and seeing new perspectives on characters I was already familiar with.

Rebecca wrote: "it made everything feel fated and doomed and that made me feel interest and compassion for characters I might not have responded to otherwise. I liked the shifting viewpoints as well, getting the story from different angles and seeing new perspectives on characters I was already familiar with."

thank you rebecca! are there books you can compare this to? i noticed all that you noticed, but i found myself not really caring about these people in general. should i blame my general disinclination to like historical fiction?

Count me in as a fan of Landfalls. I liked that it focused on the workplace, rather than on adventure and swashbuckling. Sort of like a Mad Men on the high seas. History can be a little bit hard to engage with for me because the figures in them seem like they are from
another world, and any story with grand elements just reinforces that. But Williams' approach closes the distance by making it about the everyday, like the story about the pompous chevalier naturalist whose fondness for beans, though exasperating, ends up being kind of sweet. There was a coziness to the writing that I liked. Naomi Williams strikes me as that friend who is a good observer of life and can come home from work everyday with an amusing story about some mundane, but humorous thing that happened at work. And I kind of just liked many of the characters ... They seem like good people, adventurous and often nonconformist. Sort of like the people I imagine would be exploring space or doing research in Antarctica. For me the flaws were that most of the stories sounded like they were written by the same woman, even when she took some obvious efforts to change the writing up for each character. I also did not like her stories about the non crew members (islanders for instance) who felt simplistically drawn. I also sometime felt like she wrote some passages with a historical costume reference book next to her. I still I liked the geekiness of that and appreciate it for what it's worth -- sort of the way it's fun to be around someone smart and curious.

BTW, did anyone else get confused due to the existence of Portland author Ellen Urbani's Landfall also published in 2015 and heavily endorsed by Powells? The premise sounds tailor-made to TOB.

Elizabeth wrote: "Count me in as a fan of Landfalls. I liked that it focused on the workplace, rather than on adventure and swashbuckling. Sort of like a Mad Men on the high seas. History can be a little bit hard to..."

thank you elizabeth!

jo wrote: "so, okay, those of you who loved Landfalls: would you say a few words about what you loved in it, what made you tick, what spoke to you?"

For some reason, this book reminded me of The Luminaries.

Elizabeth, I loved your comment about the focus on the workplace. I hadn't thought about it in that way but that was one of the things that appealed to me about Landfalls.

Jo, finally read Oreo and I bow down to your judging. I can't imagine what I can even say about a book that I don't think I grasped even slightly but still feel lucky to have read it.

@Amberbug - me too! I'm about halfway through and couldn't possibly categorize the tale but am loving the weird ride!

wait. i thought i was the only one on the american continent not to understand this book. like amber, i feel lucky to have read it. unlike amy, i can't honestly say i loved the ride!

i'm curious to know if anyone here would have given the vote to Landfalls. i promise i won't take it personally!