Fantasy Book Club discussion

This month as we are reading The Death of Dulgath, Michael J. Sullivan has offered to answer your questions.

If there are spoilers involved, please hide them.

Thank you Michael.

You are very welcome Brenda, and thanks again to the group for picking The Death of Dulgath. I put a quick note over in the discussion thread to let people know I won't be looking at it - making it an "Author Free Zone" so people can speak freely.

As for this thread. I'll answer questions on anything.

* Questions about this book
* Questions about my other books
* Questions about future books
* Questions about writing in general
* Questions about the publishing industry (agents, contracts, etc.)
* Questions about...well just about anything I can think of.

I might even throw in a few questions of my own - to relay answers to things that are asked often.

Looking forward to the discussion!

I've seen a couple different reading orders of your books, I believe there was a published and a chronological order if I'm not mistaken. What is your recommendation on a reading order?

Very cool of you to stop by! I unfortunately won't be joining for this read, as I don't own the novel nor read the first two in the series. Though it has now been added to "To be read" pile and will hopefully begin exploring your works later this year.

Thank you Michael for joining us. It really is very kind of you. I just wanted you to know that your books are some of my favorite of all time. I actually was on the verge of giving up on Fantasy when I stumbled across Theft of Swords audiobook at our local library. Needles to say I was hooked. Thanks for such great characters and such great tales. I pray you'll keep their adventures going.

Thank you Michael, very exciting indeed. All the books so far have been very entertaining and exciting. Dan, you're in for a treat.

Vera wrote: "I've seen a couple different reading orders of your books, I believe there was a published and a chronological order if I'm not mistaken. What is your recommendation on a reading order?"

Hey Vera - You are correct there are two reading orders - and both are written in a way that people can get an enjoyable (although different) experience. I prefer order of publication as that rolls out the characters and the world in the way I had intended. The orders are:

Publication Order: Theft of Swords | Rise of Empire | Heir of Novron | The Crown Tower | The Rose and the Thorn | The Death of Dulgath.

Chronological Order: The Crown Tower | The Rose and the Thorn | The Death of Dulgath | Theft of Swords | Rise of Empire | Heir of Novron.

One other aspect to this series that sometimes confuses people is the first series (Riyria Revelations) was published two different ways - the original release was six books. When Orbit picked up the series they re-released it as three, two-book omnibus editions so the originals are no longer in print. Because you get two full-length novels in a single book the new releases are much kinder to your pocketbook. FYI the books break down as follows:

* Theft of Swords contains: The Crown Conspiracy & Avempartha
* Rise of Empire contains: Nyphron Rising & The Emerald Storm
* Heir of Novron contains: Wintertide & Percepliquis

Dan wrote: "Very cool of you to stop by! I unfortunately won't be joining for this read, as I don't own the novel nor read the first two in the series. Though it has now been added to "To be read" pile and wil..."

I love being involved in these group reads - so thanks to your moderators for setting this up. No worries about not reading the book, but I'm glad you are interested in all three. One thing I should note. The first two books are closely related and should be read together - they basically tell the "origin story" of how Royce and Hadrian met. This third book, however, is a standalone story and you don't need to have any prior knowledge of Riyria to enjoy it. I've heard from enough people who started with The Death of Dulgath to know that they weren't confused and found it to be a story that stands by itself. I'm not saying you should do that. By all means, read the way you are most comfortable with. I'm just giving some insights into how the books were structured and that they met their goal.

I read Crown Conspiracy and totally loved it, not least because of the humour. Fortunately I bought Avempartha before it disappeared.

Michael, if it was a movie, who would be your ideal cast?

Tnkw01 wrote: "I pray you'll keep their adventures going. I just wanted you to know that your books are some of my favorite of all time...I pray you'll keep their adventures going. "

What a great story, thanks for sharing. I'm honored that my books kept you in the fantasy fold. The Riyria Chronicles are written in a much different way than Riyria Revelations. Revelations was a carefully plotted tale with a known start and end. So there really isn't a way to expand it (without ruining what is there).

Chronicles, on the other hand, are meant to be more "one-off" stories (except for the first two which are fairly related and were released close to one another. The idea was that I wrote more books with the duo because my wife (and my readers) were having withdrawals after Revelations was over. They really wanted more of the pair...but I also want to be cautious about them not overstaying their welcome.

So...I went back in time (Revelations starts after the pair have been together for 12 years) and wrote the origin story. I COULD write a book for each year they were together (so 12 in total) but I'm not COMMITTING to that. What I'm doing instead is releasing a book, take the readership's temperature, and then if the two haven't gone stale - I'll write another one.

The release of The Death of Dulgath has gone very well. In fact I just learned that we sold about 10,000 copies just in audio in the first month - which is extremely strong. Based on that feedback i think I will write a fourth chronicle, but I'll wait to make an "official decision" until I finish Book #4 and #5 of my new series (The Legends of the First Empire). That won't be too much longer. I'm hoping for April or May. But at this point, I'm cautiously optimistic there will be a fourth Chronicle story.

Helen wrote: "Thank you Michael, very exciting indeed. All the books so far have been very entertaining and exciting. Dan, you're in for a treat."

The pleasure has been all mine. Love hearing responses like yours. Fantasy readers have been very kind to me and my books.

When originally starting the series, did you know it would be centered around these two thieves?

Who was harder to write: Hadrian or Royce?

Wow this is so exciting only joined this club a week ago and now there is a chat with Mr Sullivan!! My inner teenage fangirl is screaming! Just wanted to say I had a very long (1.5 years) reading slump (drought) about a year ago and I picked up the crown conspiracy. Wanted something with a great plot and something that was very succinct to get me back into reading. Your books have certainly done the job. I had a question as to your productivity. How do you do it? Some authors spend a good couple years on books(especially editing). Where as you write, basically a book a year. Is it because when you start writing a series you have a much clearer picture of where the story is going to go? Do you find you don't have to edit as much? Whatever it is keep it up!

Scott wrote: "When originally starting the series, did you know it would be centered around these two thieves?"

Yes indeed. I'm an odd author in that I write the entire series before publishing any of the books - so I knew exactly who the main characters would be. While most people think of these books as "Royce and Hadrian" I actually consider there 4 main leads...as I include Arista and Thrace/Modina. One of the reasons people don't think of them as mains is their stories don't start until book #2 and the book where they get the most screen time is Book #3, but by the end of the series they are just as important, and in some case more important that Royce and Hadrian. Thanks for asking!

Scott wrote: "Who was harder to write: Hadrian or Royce?"

This is going to sound like a cop out - but it's actually the opposite...me responding as honestly and throughly as I can. The answer is neither. The two have been with me for so long (10 years before I started writing the series and 14 years since - so 24 years total) that I know exactly how they would act in any situation I pose to them. Their dialog plays in my head like I'm watching a movie and usually my hands can't keep up with my mind as I type them out. To me, they are almost like real people and so I don't ever "work" I just write down how I see them reacting to the situations I put them in - it's all so easy that's it's almost criminal to have this as a "job."

Krzysztof wrote: "Wow this is so exciting only joined this club a week ago and now there is a chat with Mr Sullivan!! My inner teenage fangirl is screaming!

I'm honored to be here - I've participated in a number of group like this and have enjoyed every minute of them.

Krzysztof wrote: "Just wanted to say I had a very long (1.5 years) reading slump (drought) about a year ago and I picked up the crown conspiracy. Wanted something with a great plot and something that was very succinct to get me back into reading. Your books have certainly done the job.

That's great! I'm glad to have been able to play a role in reigniting your love of reading.

Krzysztof wrote: "I had a question as to your productivity. How do you do it? Some authors spend a good couple years on books(especially editing). Where as you write, basically a book a year.

Well two things here. First is that writing is the thing I enjoy the most and it's when I can't write that I get antsy. So for me, vacations are actually not relaxing they are stressing because I'm away from writing (and can't generally write when not in my own controlled environment).

The second thing to mention is there is a big difference between when a book is written and when they are released. So what you see doesn't necessarily align with my writing. For instance. The Riyria Revelations were released in three months (Nov 2011 - Jan 2012) but I wrote them (primarily) from 2002 - 2010. So when they came out, I was writing a whole different set of books. For instance my new series, The First Empire, was started in February 2013 and I finished them (for the most part) in May 2015. So that's five books in 2 1/2 years. But...they aren't 100% done as there is plenty of editing yet to do. Book #1 is 100% finished (only need to review the proof which is arriving in a few days. Book #2 I edited in November, Book #3 in December, and I hope to be done with books #4 and #5 by April or May so that's another 7 months added on to them.

The Death of Dulgath had some unusual requirements on it because of a non-compete clause with the First Empire. I started it in May finished it in 63 days and editing took place during July - October but most of that work was on the shoulders of others with only a few weeks time for me to make adjustments.

All this is my way of saying I'd love to be in a situation where I only write one book a year, but it's more like 2 - 3 books with a big difference between initial writing and the editing process. The editing process actually takes up more time by others than myself. I'm free to go on and write other things while Robin (my wife) is doing the alpha read, running the beta read, and co-ordinating with my publisher's structural and copy edits. They may spend 10 hours for every 1 hour I need in reviewing or minor editing. So I'm writing other things while they are busy at work. I'm not sure if any of that made sense or not. But I hope you get the idea. If not, feel free to ask a follow-up question.

Krzysztof wrote: "Is it because when you start writing a series you have a much clearer picture of where the story is going to go?"

Yes and no. Most of my stories form over the course of years. I have a book waiting in the wings that I outlined 3 years ago and more scenes have been "virtually" added to it but I've not written a single word. When I actually start to write it, it'll come out fast as it has had so long to "simmer." That said, the process of writing always leads to new discoveries. For instance in the book the group is reading the character of Sherwood didn't exist when I started the book, but having him made it easier for me because I could use him as a POV character and keep other aspects of the story hide from the reader. So while I have a good plan when I sit down, the discovery aspect of writing will change it. I just make sure not to go on a new path until I know where my new end is leading.

Krzysztof wrote: "Do you find you don't have to edit as much?"

When I get done with a first draft, I say the book is a good 85% - 90% there - from a story point at least. I then go over the book and smooth it out - usually tightening the language, removing excess words, etc. This is a fairly quick process and I can usually do a whole book in a month. Then the work is shown to others. Robin comes back with a list of issues - and hers are usually pretty easy to incorporate - a few weeks to a month tops. The beta readers changes usually take 3 days - a week. Again, the book is pretty solid by the time they see it so we're talking minor tweaks. By the time my editor sees it, Robin has been over it a few times to do line editing and further smooth the rough edges. She knows my writing so much that I accept about 95% of her changes and have to rewrite just a few things here and there. Changes from the publisher are really minor - usually only a few minor things to address and again that takes little time to do - I think for Age of Myth I incorporated my editors suggestions over the course of a week or so. The final editing process is copy editing - and that again has others doing the heavy lifting. In general I just have to approve or "stet" the changes they make, and that is pretty fast and easy to do. Every once in a while I'll see something I don't like at this stage and that may mean the rewrite of a paragraph or two, but usually its almost 100% accepts.

Krzysztof wrote: Whatever it is keep it up!

At this stage the process is pretty well honed and the results are easy to predict. I have a team I'm comfortable with that know my style well and I don't have to teach them what things I will agree to and what things I'll dismiss. It makes it pretty efficient. And I see no reason to change it - so to reply to your statement - I certainly will!

Helen wrote: "Michael, if it was a movie, who would be your ideal cast?"

Well it changes all the time because the series has been around for so long. Generally the actors get too old to play the parts. For instance at one time I thought Mel Gibson (from Braveheart days) would make a good Hadrian and Jermey Irons (from Man in the Iron Mask days) would be a good Royce. Now both of them are too old of course. Current people are to borrow from Thor and use Chris Hemsworth for Hadrian and Tom Hiddleston for Royce.

Helen wrote: "I read Crown Conspiracy and totally loved it, not least because of the humour. Fortunately I bought Avempartha before it disappeared."

Glad you nabbed it. We knew some people would be caught and end up buying one of the books twice. But I think combining the six-book series down to three was a good decision on Orbit's part. It made it much easier to keep the books in the stores, and it provides a good value to the readers as they get two full-length novels for the price of one.

Awesome answers! Thanks for being so accessible to your readers/fans

Wow thank you for such a long answer!!! Just wow. You answered my question to such an amazing extent! I'll push my luck once more if I can. Hopefully this answer won't take to long to write. I'm interested to know what type of things editors (specifically from your publisher) make you take out and/or change in your books. I understand there are probably a myriad things. But very generally and loosely what kind of things.

Are the changes made to serve(in their eyes) the character development, the plot, the world building. I'm sure most of this stuff would have been worked on with your Alpha and Beta readers but do editors look into these things? Or are changes by editors made to improve the accessibility to the reader, to broaden the target audience or to help in the marketing of the book? I understand publishers like playing around with the title a lot to help in marketing the book and authors usually have to fight for a title if they really want to keep it.

@Scott - it's my supreme pleasure - thanks for having me here.

Krzysztof wrote: "I'm interested to know what type of things editors (specifically from your publisher) make you take out and/or change in your books."

I'm not sure if this common or if I'm an outlier, but when my publisher gets their comments back to my books there is very little that that they wish to address. I've worked with three of the top fantasy editors in the business: Devi Pillali (Senior Editor at Orbit), Betsy Mitchell (former editor-in-chief at Del Rey for a decade), and Tricia Narwani (Editorial Director at Del Rey) and the experience has been the same with each. Devi keeps saying that my books are some of the "cleanest" she's ever seen. Is she just stroking my ego? I have no idea. But I do think the books are in great shape before they see them. This is due mainly to the paces Robin puts the books through with alpha and beta reading.

All that has to do with the structural side of things. Copyediting is another matter. I'm not the best when it comes to grammar and so there is a lot of comma fixing, typos, and noun verb agreement stuff that has to be addressed. Again, I'm not sure if it is more or less than other authors, but the books are never as "clean" on that front as I would hope...until they get at it, of course.

Krzysztof wrote: "Are the changes made to serve(in their eyes) the character development, the plot, the world building."

No, not sever at all. It's usually something like this. The first time we meet x and y its a little too dialog driven. It might be best to move that conversation later in the book and come up with a different scene for the introduction. Or.....

I really like the interaction with x and y but I would like a scene where we learn more about x's time in z. It'd give me a little more insight into some of what formed his opinions about w.

That's the kind of things I get and they usually mean adding a little scene here or there. I don't think I've ever had to cut anything from the books.

Krzysztof wrote: "I'm sure most of this stuff would have been worked on with your Alpha and Beta readers but do editors look into these things?"

I think the do look at those things, but I don't think they find much that needs to be addressed.

Krzysztof wrote: Or are changes by editors made to improve the accessibility to the reader, to broaden the target audience or to help in the marketing of the book?

I've never been asked to make a change to broaden the audience...nothing like, "Why don't you make Royce a woman to bring in a larger segment of female audience." There was one point that was raised for the Riyria Chronicles in that there was some real concern about Gwen (and most of the women in the book because it centers around Gwen) being a prostitute. My editor would have preferred her to be in another profession , for obvious reasons. The problem, is that set of books was a prequel and her profession was well established in the other novels and I couldn't change history. I also couldn't think of a way to make her "fall into that profession" if she had success in other work - like a shop keeper, bread maker, or spinner. The whole point was she entered the profession because she had no choice and she made the best of a very bad situation. So yes, I was asked to change that but decided not to, and my editor made it clear that her comments were "suggestions" only and ultimately it's my call.

Now again, that is my experience with my books...I have heard from other authors that they have been asked for more changes. One author mentioned that their editor wanted the whole thing rewritten from third-person to first person perspective. I, myself, when acting as an editor to T.C. Powell's short story included with The Death of Dulgath asked to remove his characters wife, as having her in the story, an the things she did muddied the waters. So I'm not saying that kind of thing doesn't go on, I'm just saying that my personal experience hasn't followed a trek that has required much in the way of changes to the story.

Well it sounds like editors absolutely love you because they can just leave you to your devices! Thanks for the answer!

Michael wrote: "Helen wrote: "Michael, if it was a movie, who would be your ideal cast?"

Well it changes all the time because the series has been around for so long. Generally the actors get too old to play the p..."

Those are my picks too.

Krzysztof wrote: "Wow this is so exciting only joined this club a week ago and now there is a chat with Mr Sullivan!! My inner teenage fangirl is screaming! Just wanted to say I had a very long (1.5 years) reading s..."

A few years ago after becoming friends on here with Michael, I saw someone reading his book on the bus. I was caught being nosy and we ended up chatting. I stated, oh the authors a friend of mine. Bet she didn't think I meant on here!

Krzysztof wrote: "Well it sounds like editors absolutely love you because they can just leave you to your devices! Thanks for the answer!"

Well I hope they do. Or it could just be I have lazy editors ;-). No real way to know ;-)

Helen wrote: "Those are my picks too. "

Great minds think a like ;-)

Helen wrote: "A few years ago after becoming friends on here with Michael, I saw someone reading his book on the bus. I was caught being nosy and we ended up chatting. I stated, oh the authors a friend of mine. Bet she didn't think I meant on here! "

You SAW someone with he book - that's so cool. It's still on my bucket list! Another friend of mine saw someone on a train with the book - she asked if she could take a picture and then sent it to me. A few months later I got an email from a woman who said, "This may sound strange but a woman approached me on a train once and took my pictures. She said she was a friend of mine - did you ever get that picture?" That story and your own is the closest I've ever gotten.

Oh...and there was the time that someone tweeted a picture of a car with a license plate of R1YR1A...which was totally awesome. The plates were VA and I have RIYRIA. When I shared it with my daughter, her response. "I can't believe there were two people who knew about your book in the same place at the same time ;-)

I'm amazed someone liked the books enough to personalize their license plate. I mean I know why mine are - but for someone else to do so was pretty surreal.

Helen Wrote: "A few years ago after becoming friends on here with Michael, I saw someone..."

Well to be fair I probably wouldn't believe you before this chat happened!

Your series' were already high on my to read list but I have to say that I've been lurking on this thread, and I'm very impressed with how open and willing you are to talk to everyone. I really admire someone with good manners and attitude, especially in your kind of work. I definitely learned a lot about how the writing process works (even though I work in healthcare and have no urge to write a book), it is a very interesting thing to learn!

Krzysztof wrote: "Well to be fair I probably wouldn't believe you before this chat happened!"

It's great living in a day and age when readers and authors can chat like we are here - I love it.

Margret wrote: "I definitely learned a lot about how the writing process works (even though I work in healthcare and have no urge to write a book), it is a very interesting thing to learn! "

I think both readers and aspiring authors are interested in the "behind the scenes" aspects of publishing. It's sometimes can be pretty messy, but the editing aspect has never been a problem. Generally it's contracts that are the big sticking point. So much of the power resides in the hands of the publishers that there are some pretty atrocious clauses and authors don't have much leverage to adjust them. I do think having self-publishing as an option is certainly helping to balance the scales. Change comes....but slowly.

Michael wrote: "Krzysztof wrote: "Well to be fair I probably wouldn't believe you before this chat happened!"

It's great living in a day and age when readers and authors can chat like we are here - I love it."

I was lucky as she could've started asking me all about how we'd met etc. I'd have sounded a real nut explaining.

@Helen @Michael

I just hope one day, more people will look up to authors. I'm finding it so rewarding.

I was wondering to myself recently on how to pronounce the word Riyria. I myself pronounce it "Ree-yah". Is that close because I know I am notoriously bad at pronouncing words i have never heard before. Should have heard how I pronounced the Hermione before the films came out!

Helen wrote: "I was lucky as she could've started asking me all about how we'd met etc. I'd have sounded a real nut explaining. "

Nah...I know a lot of people who've I've ever only met online. I think it's pretty common these days.

Krzysztof wrote: "I just hope one day, more people will look up to authors. I'm finding it so rewarding. "

Authors are just like anyone else...no reason for pedestals. We're all just people.

Krzysztof wrote: "I was wondering to myself recently on how to pronounce the word Riyria. I myself pronounce it "Ree-yah". Is that close because I know I am notoriously bad at pronouncing words i have never heard be..."

Well, everyone pronounces it differently - and there is no "right" or "wrong." Had I known the series would d have been so popular, I would have selected something easier ;-)

They way I pronounce it is, "rye - ear - ah" -- as in (a) the bread (b) what you listen with (c) a sigh of relief.

Sounds much better haha. Ahhh english why are you so unphonetic. One day I will understand this language.

Also I didn't mean to put you on a pedestal. I just think that the world would be a nicer place if people looked up to authors more than let's say the Kardashians... but each to their own haha.

Krzysztof wrote: "Sounds much better haha. Ahhh english why are you so unphonetic. One day I will understand this language."

Technically it's Elvish, not English ;-)

Krzysztof wrote: "Also I didn't mean to put you on a pedestal. I just think that the world would be a nicer place if people looked up to authors more than let's say the Kardashians... but each to their own haha."

Yeah, I get you.

Well thankyou. I am feeling very trilingual today with the addition of my new elvish skills.

Michael wrote: "Helen wrote: "Michael, if it was a movie, who would be your ideal cast?"

Well it changes all the time because the series has been around for so long. Generally the actors get too old to play the p..."

Hi Michael

Interesting choices - Tom Hiddleston will carry off Royce perfectly! How about Luke Evans for Hadrian? Seeing him in The Three Musketeers, The Hobbit and Dracula Untold, he does seem to know how to wield a sword and a bow - and carry it off very well. :)

Will there me another trilogy in the works for Royce and Hadrian, or will it be stand alone works going forward?

Looking forward to Age of Myth.

Krzysztof wrote: "Well thankyou. I am feeling very trilingual today with the addition of my new elvish skills."

Haha - Now you just have to find some elves to use it on ;-)

TS wrote: "Interesting choices - Tom Hiddleston will carry off Royce perfectly! How about Luke Evans for Hadrian? Seeing him in The Three Musketeers, The Hobbit and Dracula Untold, he does seem to know how to wield a sword and a bow - and carry it off very well. :) "

I could definitely see him working in the role. I'll have my people call his people...oh wait...I don't have "people" - well there is Robin but I don't think his people are in her rolodex. Oh well, one can dream.

Evan wrote: "Will there me another trilogy in the works for Royce and Hadrian, or will it be stand alone works going forward?"

The Riyria Chronicles aren't really a "trilogy" -- even though they are three books. It' more like an "ongoing series" of which there are three books now - and that may or may not be all there is. When I think of a trilogy I think of work where each book is planned, and the ending of the third completes an entire arc. In the case of Revelations - the books were definitely designed to be six - with a definite start and a definite end. But Chronicles was written differently. When I finished Revelations, I never intended to write any more with Royce and Hadrian, but pressure from my wife (and the readers) made me want to return to them. The obvious thing (as I didn't want to "tack on" to Revelations, which was carefully choreographed to end where it did) was to go back in time and write the origin story. Originally it was going to be one book, starting with a short story (The Viscount and the Witch) that I had written years ago. But, as I got toward the end of that book (The Rose and the Thorn) I realized I didn't go back far enough so I wrote The Crown Tower. Those two stories pretty much round out the "origin story" and they could have been all the Chronicles that exist. But, again, my wife and the readers were still hungry for more so The Death of Dulgath came into existence. With the origin story told, I really could do anything I wanted so I wrote it as a standalone. I sent "the boys" to a part of the world where they have never been and exposed them to some aspects of the world they hadn't run into in the books to date. This also allowed me to provide a bit of a bridge between Riyria and the new series (The Legends of The First Empire). There is a lot about the events of 3,000 years ago that aren't exactly true (history after all is written by the victors), and so this book allowed me to dip my toes every so slightly into what's coming. For those that don't read both books it won't matter - but for those that will be reading them - they'll be some Easter Eggs that will probably only appear if they re-read Dulgath after reading The First Empire series.

So, the real question isn't whether there will be a another trilogy, but will there be a fourth Chronicle. The way I'm structuring the series is pretty much individual standalone adventures so there could be more. That said, I'm very protective of the pair and don't want them to overstay their welcome. So, my process is to release a Chronicle, see what people think about more, and if people are still excited for more, well nothing would please me more because I enjoy reading about them so much. From the feedback so far, I say the chances are VERY good for a fourth book, but the book is newly released and I expect the early reviews to be positive. I'll give it a few more months (when I'm done editing book #4 and book #5 of the new series), and then make an "official decision."


Evan wrote: "Looking forward to Age of Myth."

Thanks! I am as well. It's hard not having others know what I do. I feel like a little kid with a big secret. June will be here sooner that I expect, I'm sure. I'm really pleased with the production work Del Rey has done on Book #1, I hope to have Book #2 in beta around March. And if all goes to plan editing on the last two books should be done in April or May.