The Creative Writer's Toolbelt discussion

Hi All,
I recently met another writer and formed the beginnings of a critique group. This is my first time being involved in one so I'm flying a little blind. I've heard that it's not a good idea to get critique on something you're actively working on. I'm about 50% done my first draft of a novel and have identified problems as I go without going back to fix them. I'm trying to resist editing until I'm fully done the first draft. But without doing a couple passes of editing first I'm not sure it's worth giving my stuff to my critique partner (or that I want to yet). I may only have access to her for a limited time. Do you have any recommendations for how to make the best use of this resource at the stage I'm at? Are there other ways to get feedback and help without having to provide fully written, edited, and polished sections?
Thank you for any suggestions!
Meaghan

Hi Meaghan - and hi anyone else looking in!

Meaghan, I hope some other people give you their opinion on this because this is a question that might not have an obvious, right, answer. I have some opinions but it would be good to get some other views.

I can summarize my comments as:

1. If you trust your critique partner to give you valuable feedback, then go ahead and give her some of your material. When you do so, explain clearly that it's in the earliest draft, and then ask her how much she wants to read, and be specific about what you want from her - so give her material that has specific issues, and also ask her to focus on the aspects of your work that you most think needs advice.

2. Ask her to put comments onto a paper or electronic version of your work, so you have a record.

3. Once you have received this input, do the difficult thing(!) and put it to one side and go back and finish the draft.

My longer answer...

I don't know if you read the notes I left based on your last question a few days ago, but you'll see from those that I do think you are right to resist the temptation to do any editing on your draft until you've finished it. I think you're energy and focus needs to be on getting the draft done.

There's an observed phenomenon with first drafts that a lot of writers get to about 40% to 60% in and then find that the going gets harder, they do see potential issues with that first draft, they still know that they have thousands of words to write, and the initial flush of enthusiasm as waned. I am not saying this has happened in your case, I think only you can judge that, but now might be the time to gather your resolve, recognize you are in a challenging phase of the writing, and just keep at it.

So although I think you could get some input, it's important that you stick with the draft and see it through. Sure your first draft is just that, a first draft, but when you give someone work to critique, it doesn't have to be totally polished. You are not 'presenting your work' at this stage as if it were the best you can do, it's not, it's just a work in progress.

If possible encourage one other person to join your group, I think the dynamics work so much better with three people, maybe she knows someone who could join? Maybe you do? And if you aren't quite ready to show her your work, maybe the two of you could start with you looking at some of her material and critiquing that to start with?

Getting feedback on your work is a frightening thing, I think especially if you set high standards for yourself, so expect to find the process a little hard, a bit threatening. You might feel a but defensive if your partner is critical of your work - focus on taking the best of the advice and leave the rest, you don't need to take everything she says, just the stuff that you know is true, and that helps you.

I hope this is helpful,

best wishes,
Andy

Hi Meaghan - I joined Critters Writers Workshop and have been very happy. Take a look at http://www.critters.org/c/diplomacy.ht I do scifi but they have other genres.

It's nice to do critiques over the internet for me - you are free to indulge in any reaction you want to the input ;) and you have a record of all comments. Critters has excellent "diplomatic" criteria and coaching.

I briefly joined a local face-to-face writers group where the rule was "if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all." Good for the ego - perhaps - but didn't help me improve.

Good luck.

Thanks Andrew and Kate.
To be more specific, what type of feedback should I be looking for while I'm still working on my first draft? Should I give them detailed character sketches and they can get me to address inconsistencies or go deeper? Should I give them plot outlines and get feedback on whether there are holes?
Thanks,
Meaghan

Hi Meaghan

First, I'd endorse what Kate has said about the Critter's critique group, which you can find at www.critters.org this is a great environment to get critique, when I was a member I also learnt from the process of giving critique as well.

To answer your question about the type of feedback you are looking for, I still think that the most important thing you can do now is to get to the end of your first draft, although I appreciate that it's going to be almost impossible for you to resist the temptation to edit your work based on the person's comments.

If you feel you have to edit the earlier parts of the draft based on these comments, then resolve to do this, and then get back to finishing the draft.

So, when you are sending material to the person who is reviewing your work, give them some context for the whole book - something like a 200-300 word synopsis, and then give them a portion of the first draft. What you ask them to feedback on depends on how much they are willing to write.

If they're going to look at, say, 2,000 to 3,000 words then I'd give them the first part of the MSS, and give them specific questions like:

- Does the start of the story grab you and draw you in?
- Do the characters you introduce seem coherent and real to you, do you feel you understand who they are?
- Do you feel that you would want to continue reading?
- Does the initial presentation of the setting seem believable
- Are there mistakes in the manuscript, in terms of spelling, punctuation, grammar, continuity?

You can also add any questions to cover any issues within the material that particularly both you

If the person is reading a larger section of the work you can also ask questions like:

- Can you identify the journey or arc for the main characters?
- Is the plot understandable and believable?
- Does the pacing work?

I don't think you should give them any material other than the MSS and a synopsis, the book needs to stand on its own, so let your reviewer come to it as it is.

Thanks
Andy

Hi Meaghan - here's a suggestion from http://www.critters.org/c/text.cgi?f=...
Ask that they start with a sentence summation of what the story is about. (You'd be surprised how often someone summarizes your story and you think, hey, wait, that wasn't the important part--which tells you something about where the weight is falling in the story.) Then - ask how the story was effective (what was good for them, what they liked) and how the story wasn't
effective.

Or from here http://www.crayne.com/articles/succee...
Ask for simple things: Did they understand it? Do they feel your paragraphs are too long? Did you miss a word in a sentence or two (easy to do in the heat of creative writing)? Did they enjoy reading it?

I'd avoid offering your readers anything beyond the story itself - the sketches, outlines, etc you use for your own reference aren't in the story, after all, and to my mind are just a distraction for a reader. I always appreciate typos and any clunky sentence structure being highlighted - also any place the reader got confused or had to re-read more than once. If a sentence/paragraph loses the reader - even if it is technically correct, it's "wrong."

Using critiques takes a little practice, so don't worry about perfection. Remember that it's not personal and no story makes everyone happy. For me - while I value all typos and mechanical issues that are found - I get more from readers who like the premise. If a reader doesn't like the premise, they are simply not "your" reader. Even best-sellers get 2 star reviews.

Good luck

Thanks Kate and Andrew,
I ended up going back to some of Andrew's previous advice to write a synopsis of my entire novel. Using 1-2 sentences per scene it ended up being just over 4 pages. It's completely in 'tell' format but felt great to feel like I had gotten it all down in one place, start to finish. This is what I ended up passing to my critique partner to begin with. Got some basic 'what about this, I got a good sense of this but not this, I can tell the themes you're going for are these,' etc. Led to some good brainstorming on how to fix some holes as I continue to write my way through the first draft.
So far so good,
Meaghan

Great Meaghan! Sounds like you've got a good partner and this will help your story. Write on!

A idea Meaghan, I hope this has helped you feel like you have control of your work, I hope the rest of the first draft goes well.
Andy