The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

I'm away from my computer and my copy of Villette so apologies for no discussion suggestions. I know you don't really need them!

Please post your thoughts on this next section here.

And here’s Polly, still as annoying a doll as ever. Sickeningly sweet enough to give me a toothache. I knew it was her as soon as she spoke in the theatre. Obviously not a favorite character of mine and one I was really hoping wouldn’t show up again. I was reading on the bus and had to stop myself making gagging noises whenever she spoke. Sorry; I know it’s not fair and I’m sure she’s a lovely person. Perfect, apparently.

But… her age! So it says she should have been 7 at the beginning of the book. That did not sound like a 7-year-old. I would have thought 5, tops, probably 4.

The coincidence was a bit too much too. I realize Dickens has as many coincidences in his books, but somehow they seem obnoxious here.

Why was Lucy wondering what Madame Beck and M. Paul thought of her letters? Surely they were in English, right?

I’m sure how I feel about M. Paul. He can be obnoxious, but he’s also entertaining. He doesn’t seem to be a bad person at heart.

Dr. John isn’t the most perceptive person on the planet, is he? He’s kind and intelligent, but only sees what’s on the surface. He’s not empathic. I guess he’s never had to be, since his mother is not an emotional person. He’s not used to dealing with people who feel things more deeply.

I have another theory about the nun, but I’m going to feel really stupid if I’m wrong – I think it’s De Hamal, sneaking in to meet Ginevra. That would explain Ginevra pretending to be asleep – possibly waiting for an opportunity to go up. And De Hamal would have wanted to scare anyone else out of the garret. The window pane was broken. And there was a lit candle behind a sheet when Lucy went up for her dress. When Lucy saw the nun by the tree, maybe he was waiting to go up that tree and get in the garret. I thought it was M. Paul before, but the nun is tall, and M. Paul is short.

Yes, Polly is back. Lucy is still smitten with Dr. John even though she says she doesn't have any "warm feelings" for him. Otherwise why would she write these letters? I am getting tired of Dr. John and Lucy's worship of him, but she does comment on his not appreciating the performance of Vashti.

Lori wrote: "I was reading on the bus and had to stop myself making gagging noises whenever she spoke. ..."

LOL! At least the book is engaging you. We have to look at some bright side here, right? ;-)

To me, Polly's character has completely changed since she was a child, except perhaps for the adoration of her father. Again, I need to make a great leap of belief to connect the young Polly with the older Polly.

Lori wrote: "The coincidence was a bit too much too. I realize Dickens has as many coincidences in his books, but somehow they seem obnoxious here...."

I'm can swallow some coincidence, but it would be nice if there was some consistency. Again, I feel like I'm being pulled from here, to there, to all over the place. I'm wondering though, if this is a sign of depression, in which we, as the reader, are allowed to experience perhaps even in a small way the vacillations and unrest that someone who is experiencing melancholia might feel. At least, the book becomes easier to read, if I think that.

Lori wrote: "Dr. John isn’t the most perceptive person on the planet, is he? ..."

Okay, why would Dr. John know that she's having "melancholia", let her spend time in his house, make every effort to relieve that melancholy, write her letters, and then when Polly shows up, not have any contact with her for seven weeks to even see how she is. Nor did his mother contact her until she sent the letter. This sounds completely unbelievable.

Rosemarie wrote: "I am getting tired of Dr. John and Lucy's worship of him, but she does comment on his not appreciating the performance of Vashti. ..."

Was there some connection with Polly and this performance other than their literal meeting? Is Polly going to become Dr. John's Vashti?

Polly calls Graham " gay and careless" in chapter 24. That about sums up his character. I wish Lucy would get angry, not just the sparring with M. Paul. She is still depressed, but not as much as before. Mrs. Bretton is nice but completely absorbed in her son. She is not my idea of a good godmother at all. I want to tell Lucy that she deserves happiness as much as anyone else, if not more.

Chapter 25: I am impressed with Polly's father. He summed up Lucy's situation accurately and seems to actually think about other people's life situations, unlike the Brettons. I find Polly's reaction to Lucy a little confusing. When Polly was little she didn't seem to care much for Lucy, or am I wrong?

Rosemarie wrote: "When Polly was little she didn't seem to care much for Lucy, or am I wrong?
.."

That's what I thought. Which makes her behaviour now unaccountable, at least without an explanation.

I am making my way through these chapters and have found the answer to my question about Polly's attitude towards Lucy. Lucy herself is surprised by the fuss Polly is making over her now. I'm glad she stayed as a teacher at the school instead of becoming a paid companion of Polly. A change for the better has come over her. She has an active social life, her teaching has become easier and M. Paul has been amusing to watch as he spies on her.
During the reception at the Hotel Crecy(the last chapter of part 2)
Lucy finally has seen the true character of Graham Bretton. She has been getting stronger and more assertive since the arrival of Polly and her father on the scene. She has also gauged the true character of Ginevra.
I don't like her gushing descriptions of Paulina Mary(Polly).

Lori wrote: "The coincidence was a bit too much too. I realize Dickens has as many coincidences in his books, but somehow they seem obnoxious here...."

Yes, they don't seem to fit with the tone of the book. Dickens was a very theatrical writer so his coincidences were all part of the dramatic larger-than-life atmosphere. Villette is much more about Lucy's interior life so the sudden coincidences seem to jar.

I thought the nun worked, though, because it could be seen as a manifestation of Lucy's own disturbance (as Dr John points out to her.) However, I expect it will turn out to have a disappointingly mundane explanation as Lori suggests.

The coincidences don't bother me too much, up to a point. But Ginevra being Polly's cousin is one coincidence too far. And why has Ginevra attached herself like a limpet to Lucy?

I imagine Ginevra as attaching herself to Lucy simply because she's English - I can't see Ginevra being too good at learning French. Maybe it's also a case of a pretty girl attaching herself to a plain one to make herself look better (though admittedly I don't recall anything in the book to suggest that.)

Ginevra certainly doesn't take Lucy's scoldings seriously, which implies that she isn't really that bothered about Lucy, but just sees her as a convenient companion.

Lucy comments that although Ginevra speaks French, she speaks more colloquially and not terribly accurately. On the other hand Miss Polly speaks it to perfection. I find that Lucy is always seeking someone to dote on, almost worship, until she sees that they are not perfect--first Ginevra, then Dr. John, now
Polly. Will she be disappointed again?

Discovering an admired person's faults seems to be a recurring theme here. Dr. John was infatuated with Ginevra, until he realized how shallow she was. Lucy was very taken with Dr. John, but she finally realized that he did not really see her, or understand her, at all.

I hav just read chapter 28, and a new phase of Lucy's life is beginning. The book is getting livelier as Lucy begins to show more spirit and more self confidence.
I hope that her new mood continues.
As for the apparition of the nun, it might be a ghost, but I doubt it. As to who it is, I don't have a clue, unless it is Ginevra, as I said before.

I've found the tone of the book is changing too, but in a rather curious way. I don't find Lucy's observations or behaviour much different, but the way people are perceiving her is different. Does that make sense? It seems inconsistent somehow. Why has their perception changed?

I am enjoying M. Paul. He's a more complex character than the rest and therefore, his relationship with Lucy is more complex as well.

I don't have a clue about the ghost. It seems to have disappeared. Ha ha! ;-)

Emma wrote: "Dickens was a very theatrical writer so his coincidences were all part of the dramatic larger-than-life atmosphere. Villette is much more about Lucy's interior life so the sudden coincidences seem to jar."

Well put. I couldn't quite put my finger on why the coincidences don't work as well here, but you nailed it.

I'm having trouble with the character of M. Paul and his relationship with Lucy because I don't speak French and my book has no translations. From what I gather, he blusters quite a bit and has called Lucy out for being flamboyant when, in reality, she's probably about as plain as a church mouse. I think we're meant to believe that he's jealous of Lucy's relationship with Graham. Truly, if there is supposed to be some kind of sexual tension between M. Paul and Lucy, I'm not picking up on it. Makes the whole thing rather unsatisfying.

As for Graham, I liked him as a boy, disliked him as "Isadore", liked him again when he took off his rose-colored glasses re: Ginevra; and now I'm disliking the way Lucy describes him going after Polly. Honestly, I'm getting whiplash from going back and forth so much. I do wonder if Lucy's observations are colored by her presumptions, and maybe Graham isn't as smitten with Polly as Lucy believes him to be. But it sounds to me as if his head is much too easily turned by a pretty face.

If Villette is a love story, it's among the most peculiar I've ever read. I'm not even sure who the central couple is supposed to be! If it's not a love story, I'm not really sure what it's meant to be. There's no real plot here that I can find. The mystery of the nun is so minor that it's barely mentioned - certainly not a major plot point. I would be enjoying this so much more if I had some inkling as to where it's going. The characters and their day to day interaction isn't enough to keep me interested. When we had the fire in the theater, I thought we might get an exciting storyline, but it turned out to only be a rather pathetic and contrived device to bring the childhood group back together.

In short, I continue to be disappointed in Villette and can only hope that in this last section Bronte will pull out all the stops in order to change my opinion. :-(

I agree about Graham; he is quite a shallow person. He forgets about Lucy for seven weeks, after writing her five letters which she treasured. He is nice to everyone, but not very observant of other people's feelings. I get the idea that he thinks everyone is as shallow as he is. He's "nice", but he lacks perception and depth.

Mary Lou wrote: "...In short, I continue to be disappointed in Villette and can only hope that in this last section Bronte will pull out all the stops in order to change my opinion. :-(...."

[Smile] Mary Lou, well, since Ms. Bronte has done her work and she alone may or may not change your opinion, you may needs either simply accept that opinion or perhaps want to play with the readerly approaches of some of her historic and current critics.

I am one who is finding my reading thoughts and approaches drastically changing recently, especially as my exposure to modern/postmodern writing in contrast to ancient classical has deepened and as I have been taking some writing classes myself (personal interest in capturing some family stories for my son). Evolving reading techniques and criteria have also been one of the gifts to me of forums like Goodreads. As much as I constantly read even then, I realize my social savvy as a teenager was probably as circumscribed as that of our Lucy Snow at the opening of Villette.

I almost stopped reading this book, then i saw that you were still reading it. Is there a schedule of the reading of this book? I am on chapter 33 but i had put it down for a few weeks. It was starting to get tedious. Coming back to it I seem to have more energy for it.

Cosmic, I have finished the book and made notes so as not to give away anything about the plot, so I will just say that I liked Part 3 much more than the first two parts.

Cosmic wrote: "I almost stopped reading this book, then i saw that you were still reading it. Is there a schedule of the reading of this book? I am on chapter 33 but i had put it down for a few weeks. It was star..."

Hello Cosmic; If you go to the group home and look under the Villette section there is a Reading schedule listed. We generally post a reading schedule a couple of weeks before starting the book.

I've copied it here:
March 1-7: Chapters 1 (Bretton) to 8(Madame Beck)
March 8-14: Chapters 9(Isidore) to 15(The Long Vacation)
March 15-21: Chapters 16(Auld Lang Syne) to 22 (The Letter)
March 22-28: Chapters 23(Vashti) to 28(The Watchguard)
March 29-April 4: Chapters 29(Monsieur's Fete) to 36 (The Apple of Discord)
April 5-April 11: Chapter 37 (Sunshine) to the end plus discussion of the entire novel.

Rosemarie wrote: "Cosmic, I have finished the book and made notes so as not to give away anything about the plot, so I will just say that I liked Part 3 much more than the first two parts."

Yeah it is starting to get interesting again. I hate to abandon a book, so am glad to keep going with you.

Thank you for the schedule.

I'm finding M. Paul a much more interesting character than Dr John. Yes, he's volatile, abrasive, and (as Lucy says) sarcastic and disdainful, but he's also fully engaged with her. He doesn't treat her as part of the furniture or see her as "an inoffensive shadow" like Dr John does.
The spat in chapter 28 over the scarlet dress ("pink! pink!") is caused by his caring too much about her rather than too little. Though he may be exasperating, he is certainly not bland or boring.

I like the scene with the dress too. Someone finally is actually "seeing" Lucy as a person.

Lori wrote: And here’s Polly, still as annoying a doll as ever. Perhaps I've read too many female characters with issues or agency (which are not the same) not to enjoy this Daddy's girl characterization.

Why does Miss Fanshaw keep coming back for more caustic comments from Miss Lucy? Is the lack of care and affection from her guardian and others so traumatic she seeks human contact in any way it may be obtained?

Sometimes people who are very difficult to please have the effect of making others want to please them. I knew someone in high school who was always very critical and sarcastic. So many people tried so hard to please him, and I figured it was because if they did something that impressed him, then they knew they had really done something