Dresden Files discussion

Coming to the end of Grave Peril, and I've had a lot of thoughts on this reading. The sign of a great book is how you can find new things on every reread.

Several things came up that I didn't remember, or don't remember coming up in later books:
One thing I've noticed in these early books is that Harry has the habit of reaching out for his staff with magic, using "ventas servitas" or something like that. He doesn't seem to do that as much later (iirc). I wonder if it was his maturing in his use of magic, becoming more careful and deliberate about his magic, or just Jim B deciding to give that a rest? Thoughts?

He also talks to Bob through his radio (that he's specially reconfigured to do that). I don't remember him doing that later. Does anyone remember if he does? Same with the talisman on his wrist. I don't think he makes a new one, though he has remade his shield bracelet. Was it used after GP?

I see that he uses his sword cane in GP as well. I hadn't remembered that weapon of his, and was surprised by it in Fool Moon. Maybe he loses it permanently in a few books. Anyone know?

GP thoughts on Michael:
I really enjoy Michael and his relationship with Harry. Butcher was never afraid to go there when it concerned religion and I admire that.

I found it intriguing that Michael is not intimidated at all by the idea of going into the Nevernever. The man is badass.

If Michael killed Mavra's children 20 yrs ago, he had to be rather young when he killed multiple Black Court vamps. I always imagined him in his early 30s at this point, not that much older than Harry, or even the same age. But Harry is only 28 or 30 here. He had mentioned Michael's gray hair, so maybe that was supposed to be a hint at his age. Perhaps he's 40 in Grave Peril? Considering how physical he gets, he would be doubly badass.

I would guess Michael is more like 40 or 50 now. Molly has to be 20 something now and well Harry is sort of married to the Winter Ladies, so that should be interesting...

I guess we haven't had any definitive comment on Michael's age then? I was struck by the idea that he was killing vamps 20 years ago. If he's 40, then he was killing Black Court vamps at 20. Not bad.

Has he been a Knight this whole time? When did the sword come to Michael? Do we know any of this?

I have so many questions about Lea. This will be the first installment. ;-)

First of all, I'm wondering why Harry's mother felt he needed Lea's protection. Was it foresight or because of something she did that she knew would come back to haunt him? What do we know up to Skin Game?

And how did Thomas know she was Harry's godmother? Then again, he knows Harry's his brother. He knew their mother for years. Perhaps she told Thomas?

Good questions Monica. I'm afraid I don't really have answers, but 2 things occurred to me. Firstly, we do know Sanya got his sword at 21, so it's not inconceivable that Michael would have his at 20. Secondly, Thomas was probably trying to find out as much info about his brother ever since he found out he had one - and we can't really be sure when that happened. He could have had years to look into Harry's past (though I don't think that that is too likely, cause he probably would have made contact sooner if that were the case, surely?) There are too many ways for Thomas to have possibly found out. I don't think Lea being Harry's godmother is a big secret, but you would have to know to ask in order to find out. Their mother was called Margaret LeFey for a reason though, and it was common knowledge that she had many connections to the Fae in both courts (see turncoat.) Thomas might have known to ask. But Lea isn't Thomas's godmother too, is she? Only Harry's.

Oh, and you need to remember that Harry and Thomas's mother left Thomas when he was very young. The council only lost track of Margaret for 5 years, thinking she was hiding in Faerie or dead before they were able to track her again. (turncoat) During this time Thomas would have to have been conceived and abandoned else the council would have known where she had been. But that would make Thomas 4 when Margaret left him, factoring in pregnancy, and I had always thought he was 5 when she left - oh well, he was still very young in any case.

I did forget how young Thomas was. Not that she couldn't have told him, but perhaps it's less likely.

I'm not sure whether Lea as Harry's godmother is considered a secret. Perhaps, as you said, it's common knowledge among those who know to ask. So, maybe something everyone knows who are in the know, who are high enough up in whatever power structure they're climbing to have access to the good dirt.

Lea is only Harry's godmother, as far as I can remember.

Lea questions, part 2:

It seemed that Harry hadn't seen Lea since he killed Justin. Do I have that right? His panic and fear when he sees her makes him seem so young and naive. It's kinda cute. Lea is deliciously evil, and yet knowing her better now, she is who she is. She follows the rules.

She says Harry is hers by "blood right, by Law, and by his own broken word." What blood right? Was their pact made with blood? By the Law of the Nevernever? If his word was given when he promised to go with her after he took care of Justin, the blood pact seems a bit redundant. Or does it make it more enforceable?

Does she considered his word broken because he's stayed away from the Nevernever and so she couldn't claim him? Or did he outright refuse her after taking care of Justin? IIRC, he simply took off after Justin, so his avoidance counts as breaking his word, according to Lea?

It's been a while and this is off the top of my head so it could be a product of faulty memory, but didn't Lea show up at the big party debacle when Harry first meets Thomas? Didn't Thomas receive some sort of Fae protection at that event... maybe it was Harry? Something about Lea kissing someone and leaving a burn of some sort stics in my mind. I may be mixing up a whole bunch of other events and this might all be a load of bunk. Maybe I should go and check my facts before commenting further? Yep, good idea. ;)

Yes, Jeanie, you're remembering right, though the kiss didn't seem to me to be protective. In fact, I was trying to figure out whether it was a message, a warning, a punishment. She certainly knew what it would do.

The line I quote above about Harry's broken word to Lea happened at that party.

I found it interesting that Lea knew at once Michael was a Knight. It seems she knew him or who he was at least. What interaction have they had? This goes back to my question about how long Michael has been a Knight. It seems Michael's been in this fight longer than Harry has. If he did receive his sword at around 20, he's got ten years on Harry. No wonder he's Harry's go-to in a fight.

Lea asking for Michael's oldest daughter makes more sense and seems less random now - she's had her eye on Molly from the beginning! Makes me wonder - does Lea get everything she wants eventually - as in, Harry too?

There are tons of foreshadowing and hints in Grave Peril regarding Harry and his future.

Harry is so afraid of the cemetery and the ghosts there. It's such a contrast to how he faces much scarier things in later books. I noticed when Lea threw Harry against a column in the cemetery, he thought he broke his neck. A bit of foreshadowing perhaps?

Harry seems surprised to learn that there are three courts of vampires. Did he really not know? Seems like everyone around him knows more than he does at this point.

Harry's loss of power after his conversation with Lea is curious to me. Is it really because of his third refusal, combined with the poison? It seems a lot to assume.

I did want to ask about something specific that I never caught before:

When Harry is taken by Bianca's vamps, he flashes back to his father. He mentions that he started having nightmares shortly before his father's death. Nightmares of monsters. Are there any theories on what this was really about? Cuz I'm thinking they weren't nightmares, and it wasn't coincidence they started just before his dad died -- not so naturally, as a demon has said. Could Harry have seen them coming for his dad?

Ok two things:
When Harry is dreaming and Kravos has him, he takes back his magic - and then takes Kravos's magic. Is this maybe a violation of one of the laws of magic? Is he being corrupted by Kravos's black magic?

By the way, when Harry's ghost appears, it seems awfully well-formed and independent, no?

There is one thing about Harry that irks me. And I've talked about this before, I know. I'ts his insistence on blaming himself for everything. He essentially takes away people's choices. He said it when everything was going to hell at Bianca's. "We'd risked everything. Not we. The choices had been mine. I'd risked everything. And lost."

This makes no sense to me. And it bothers me because it diminishes their choices. It diminishes the choice Michael makes to stand with him. And it doesn't acknowledge that Susan made a grave error in judgment despite his warnings.

Finally, I just don't see the logic. Michael clearly chose to go with him, stand by him, stay with him. Susan chose to go to the party *against* Harry's insistence. That was not his choice. He warned her and she ignored it. How was that his fault? How was it his choice when it was others making those choices?

He does say it was his fault because he didn't listen to her, meaning the time she called when he was busy summoning the demon. What was he supposed to do? But ok, fine, he didn't take her call. The thing he does is, he turns that into, I didn't protect her. So, regardless whether she put herself in harm's way, and that Harry warned her to stay away, it's still his fault when things go to hell. Because he thinks he had to protect everyone. I know, I know, that's his MO. Savior complex, hero complex, whatever. He has to save and protect those in danger. I get it. But it feels a little disingenuous. In taking responsibility for others' actions and choices, he takes their choices away from them.

What do you guys think? Am I being too hard on him?

It bothered me, too, when Harry kept trying to take the blame for Susan's actions... stupid is stupid and not Harry's fault.

But this flaw in Harry does follow a simple rule... any person's strength carried to an extreme becomes their weakness. Harry's willingness to step in and protect others from the things that go bump in the night is noble, and one of his great strengths. But carried to an extreme it can mean he feels total responsibility and takes the blame for not protecting others... even from their own stupidity. This isn't noble, it's a form of hubris. It is arrogance cloaked in humility... it's as if he's saying he's so great and powerful he should be expected to save the world even from themselves. And, yes, it's a form of disrespect of others to discount their choices.

But even though this can be one of Harry's more irritating traits when in this extreme form, it is also the reason he keeps stepping up to stand between this world and the one that mere mortals have no hope of coping with on their own. Also, if nothing else, his sense of guilt may help him make better decisions next time he's with others and he has to make a choice. It keeps him from being quite so rash and reckless when given time to think. Skin Game proved he has learned to plan better... but no plan is perfect or can guarantee a happy ending for all.

Could it not also be, in part, "survivor's guilt?" When something bad happens to those around you, especially if you are close at hand at the time, it is often natural to blame yourself. Why didn't I react faster, why didn't I realize what they were going to do, why didn't I do (fill in blank) to stop them/ save them/ prevent this from happening? Yes it's arrogant. Yes it's an act of hubris. Yes in some ways it does diminish their choices. But it's also a very human reaction, and one that Harry learns from so that he's not quite as foolish in the future and as a result, makes better choices. This, compounded with what happened to Kate Daniels (his sometime apprentice from fool moon - name might be wrong) helps him be more open with info with his friends in the future. Also something else that's pretty human. It can often take more than one big mistake to make a lesson stick.

Oh, and it does bother me, but it's also a part of Harry's - and Harry's awesome so I can live with a few character flaws.
Also acts as something for him to grow out of in the books, helping him grow and progress as a character.

... part of Harry's character - and Harry is awesome...

Really tired of typos. Sigh

Monica wrote: "There is one thing about Harry that irks me. And I've talked about this before, I know. I'ts his insistence on blaming himself for everything. He essentially takes away people's choices. He said it..."

Monica the bottom line is he is delightfully flawed in a number of ways. Sometimes those flaws are annoying and irksome to the reader and maddening to the other characters. To me it makes him more real - he's a person, fumbling his way through as best he can. The pride is called out in the last stories by Michael quite directly. I dislike perfect heroes :) It's easy to be the hero when you are perfect no?

Harry’s issue stems from losing his parents at a young age. It didn’t help that his next parental figure, Justin Demorne, was abusive and betrayed him. By the time he came under Ebenezer’s tutelage the die had been cast, and he had effectively developed a condition of expecting to lose the people close to him. He tries to compensate for this by being an avenger of evil, but this exacerbates the issue as his ventures puts his friends at risk. Although he does suffer from arrogance, I would argue it’s more an issue of his Sisyphean effort to avoid losing those close to him.

Essentially, he’s Batman if Bruce Wayne was a less intelligent, rich, and physically gifted wizard.

Monica wrote: "There is one thing about Harry that irks me. And I've talked about this before, I know. I'ts his insistence on blaming himself for everything. He essentially takes away people's choices. He said it..."

I agree Monica, it annoys me to no end. I think it is a flaw in first person narratives. Kim Harrison's Rachael Morgan also does this and Jenks does it to her so often I want to slap a fictional character. Faith Hunter' Jane Yellow takes all the responsibility too. I just want to tell all three of them to give it a rest, you really aren't responsible for the whole world. Then I remember they are just characters in a book, or eventually remember they are characters.

All good points, everyone! Harry is flawed - wonderfully so. If he were perfect, he'd be boring! I think in Grave Peril, this flaw shines brightest, so I always notice it most here.

@Jeanie Interesting take on the flaw: taken to extreme, it becomes his weakness. Which JB does use against him. And it is also why he keeps stepping up when others won't, when the underdog is at risk. Which is why I'm so willing to overlook this.

And he has improved in this regard. In later books, he does leave some of the guilt and bearing of responsibility to others. And his planning skills greatly improve.

@Correai said "Essentially, he’s Batman if Bruce Wayne was a less intelligent, rich, and physically gifted wizard." LOL well put.

One interesting thing about Dresden taking all the blame... in Skin Game when others suspect and even blame him unfairly, Dresden's self-blame fades a bit. Rather than take full blame, he tries to assess the fairness and unfairness of the accusations of those around him. He feels a little guilty for remaining on the island while everyone else was fighting, but he also knows he had little choice. I wonder if this will redouble his self-blame when he gets to Peace Talks...

I hope not. Peace talks looks like it's going to be awesome - too many good / interesting interactions ahead for it not to be! Plus in Skin Game, he really REALLY didn't have any other choice but to stay put. I'm guessing that there will still be some blame that he takes onto his own shoulders in the future (I doubt he's going to have an easy life from now on) but I don't think he'll try and take it all onto himself. I think he learnt from his experience (shown clearly in ghost story) that thinking "and it was all your fault" is not a good thing.

Archimedes Grimm wrote: "I hope not. Peace talks looks like it's going to be awesome - too many good / interesting interactions ahead for it not to be! Plus in Skin Game, he really REALLY didn't have any other choice but t..."

James wrote: "I would guess Michael is more like 40 or 50 now. Molly has to be 20 something now and well Harry is sort of married to the Winter Ladies, so that should be interesting..."

Update: Rereading the series this weekend and ran across the statement that Michael is 20 years older than Harry in Grave Peril I think.

Also Harry has a premonition that Karrin will be the new Knight of the Cross but we still dont know what sword she will take. I think Amoracchius is too heavy for her, so it has to be Fidelacchius. Maybe Marcone will be a Knight of the Cross? Hmm interesting plot twist. Hes bad ass enough to do it and if Sanya can be a knight why not Marcone?

Macrone could make an interesting knight but not sure if he is noble enough to be. James, how far in the series have you read? I don't remember the premonition of Harry's, but maybe rereading changes and skin game might help answer a few of your questions. And thats all Im saying.

This is probably my third read through but you spot stuff that was not so apparent the first time.

FYI here is the link to the kindle quote:
http://amzn.to/1UqItOP

I always saw that as just how Murphy looked to Harry through the sight. At her core, Murphy is a warrior. And each wizard's sight is different - or at least what each wizard percieves in a soulgaze is different. (Harry's is one of the stangest he had heard about because he sees things almost as metaphors. Ramirez doesn't see people so much as hear them as sonatas / chords of music.) The sight helps a wizard see to the heart of things, see whats really there. Just thought of this quote as his perception of Murph, not as a premonition as such - but that's just how I saw it, not necessarily how it is.