Feminists Starting XI discussion

“The beauty myth is always actually prescribing behaviour and not appearance.”
― Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth

Among the Nigerian Wodaabes, the women hold economic power and
the tribe is obsessed with male beauty; Wodaabe men spend hours to-
gether in elaborate makeup sessions, and compete—provocatively
painted and dressed, with swaying hips and seductive expressions—in
beauty contests judged by women

I would love to see such a ceremony..just for curiosity I don't have other intentions lol..

Just started reading this and I already love it

Christine wrote: "Among the Nigerian Wodaabes, the women hold economic power and
the tribe is obsessed with male beauty; Wodaabe men spend hours to-
gether in elaborate makeup sessions, and compete—provocatively
pai..."

Hahaha! I was also so curious. So I googled and found a video!

https://youtu.be/Dm1tN3SmDWs

Apparently, "Tall, slim, facial symmetry and good teeth - make up the tick list of a beauty pageant judge. Niger's Wodaabe men decorate their faces and dance for hours to impress female judges - who may take them as lovers, even if it means stealing someone else's wife.The tribe's women can have sex with whoever they want before they are married and have have numerous husbands."
Which I found odd( oddly liberating lol) especially since they are of an Islamic culture.
They are also considered the world's vainest people.Men are rarely found without a mirror.

What do you think of this beauty pageant?
What do you think of beauty pageants in general?
Do you think the existence of beauty pageants reflect something negative about society?
Can you be a feminist and support beauty pageants?

http://mashable.com/2016/04/23/headle...
I haven't started reading the book yet, but I came across this. So I'll just drop it here.

Nanania wrote: "Christine wrote: "Among the Nigerian Wodaabes, the women hold economic power and
the tribe is obsessed with male beauty; Wodaabe men spend hours to-
gether in elaborate makeup sessions, and compete..."

I have no problem with celebrating beauty, however, beauty pageants as they are right now play into the 'beauty as a commodity' idea that fuels he beauty myth. They perpetuate and reinforce Eurocentric beauty standards. They're about rewarding a particular kind of femininity - that speaks very little and is primarily there for the male gaze. Look at pageants like Ms World and Ms US international where contestants must never have been married/given birth. What purpose does that serve outside preserving male fantasies of ownership and purity?

And don't even get me started on children's beauty pageants.

I'll need to read up on the Wodaabes before I form an opinion

I started reading this last night, thank you Nanania and Samira for the beautiful book. Get it? Beauti...okay, wacha tu.

Anyway, after reading the chapter 'The Beauty Myth,' I couldn't help but think about what I watch. You see, for most of my 25 years of life, nearly all of what I watch on television (movies, series, music videos, video games) or look at on Billboards has happened to have Hollywood influence, in one way or the other. The image of feminine "beauty" delivered to me has been clear:
If it's a White woman: slim body, "perfect" ratios, blonde hair (although red heads are acceptable), while spectacles and braces are to be avoided, if she is smart and has large buttocks, that can be considered sexy if the spectacles are dropped and make up is loaded onto her face;
If it's a Black/ Latina/ Hispanic woman: BIG buttocks and breasts.
Ofcourse in contemporary imagery this has adapted slightly. Big buttocked white women are now an interpretation of "sexy" as well as "smart, bespectacled, slim" Black/ Latina/ Hispanic women.

As a consequence, I (not me, as an individual, but my type [young men] ) have a certain unconscious definition of this thing called "beauty," which has been completely re-defined by the popular culture creation machine to mean "sexy."
Think about it. What do you watch. How much of it is spawned by Hollywood?
Now, I am not attempting to discuss the goodness or badness of Hollywood. But the systemic problem that exists and permeates all across the world. Thus, in addressing the issue, I am convinced that (i) shock therapy is required, and (ii) the fight must be all encompassing.
As we agitate for the downfall of patriarchy, as Naomi Wolf brilliantly articulates, it is abundantly clear that this is an economic system we are fighting. Ms. Wolf says "The contemporary economy depends right now on the representation of women within the beauty myth." She then goes on to proffer Galbraith on why this is the case.

This book has, so far, served to #woke upon me the fact that systemic disenfanchisement of the woman is, probably most supremely, for economic gain; that's fucked up.

As we agitate for the downfall of patriarchy, as Naomi Wolf brilliantly articulates, it is abundantly clear that this is an economic system we are fighting.

This book has, so far, served to #woke upon me the fact that systemic disenfanchisement of the woman is, probably most supremely, for economic gain; that's fucked up. "

This right here is why I (Me, myself and I :-D) believe firmly that feminism has to be anti-capitalist. Because really, the root cause of most isms, is economic gain.

I am not sure how we will take out the economic gain.ness from society - how does society then incentivise and reward hard work? In saying that I have to be frank and confess that I have absolutely no understanding on the literature surrounding contemporary socio-economic theories. So my opinion is completely uninformed.

I am somehow convinced that as we transition into the 4th and last phase of the industrial age, there will be a lot more work on alternative economic models out there. The kind of Adam Smith work that has largely underpinned the last 120 years of industry.

The agitation is wolrdwide and global: #Arab Spring, The #Occupy Movement, this current iteration of feminism, the agitation for economic equality among the races, that Gaddafi idea of a United States of Africa (economically, that is) etc.

Basically, I agree with you Aisha :-D

I'm trying to quote something Brian said , but I cant seem to find the quote button. *its a button right?? Ah. goodreads is confusing**
Anyway, I find beauty pageants really interesting. Not in the sit-infront-of-the-tv-til-my-eyes-bleedout kind of way. Just interesting in the mechanics of it. Like what made you decide that her kind of beauty is the best kind? Do they follow a kind of periodic table of beauty? And if so..what are the categories..Ofcourse they thrown in other categories into the pageant to make it not seem as shallow and superficial as it is. But c'mon!
My issue is the fact that someone can decide for me what beauty is. like what is the point of having a ms. world anyway? Is she going to stop global warming??

Nanania wrote: "“The beauty myth is always actually prescribing behaviour and not appearance.”
― Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth"

The last paragraph on page 11, she mentions the sexualization of teenagers and kids and I remember once Feminista Jones had a thread about this not being straight up pedophilia. It's about the set of behaviours prescribed as beauty, the purity and "innocence" of youth. A woman must be a virgin and she must be submissive and not more ambitious than her male significant other etc. The older a woman gets, the less likely she is to be a virgin and the likelihood of her having realised that men ain't shit is higher, making her more difficult to groom. So in order to find these qualities, men have to go for younger women. And they keep getting younger because the evolution of media means we have more information at our fingertips at an earlier age. So it's not so much the chronological age that is attractive as it is the implications of it

Brian wrote: "I am not sure how we will take out the economic gain.ness from society - how does society then incentivise and reward hard work?"

Brian, maybe a start is to rethink what we consider hard work and the purpose of it. Work is right now seen as a means to amass wealth rather than sustenance than building communities, especially the most vulnerable in the community. That's why in one city we can have multi million houses and also slums and we consider this one community. If you consider work a means to gain wealth then yeah, it's gonna be hard to rethink capitalism. But if you see work as a tool to enable you and your community sustenance and comfort, then amassing wealth for the sake of just amassing it becomes gross. I won't say I have the answer of what next after capitalism, but I just know capitalism isn't it.

You know how when you decide to start paying attention to things you didn't realize before. You kind of see it everywhere.

So, the other day I was in the mall being all happy in my maintaining the Bourgeoisie Elite, as we all do. I was looking at the gorgeous clothes and thinking, I wish I had more money. I started paying attention to the mannequins. Tall. Thin. Petite figures. Why are all the mannequins one body type? Why don't we have short, chubby mannequins? Or Beyonce like mannequins or pear shaped or apple shaped so we know how clothes look like on different body types? Why is this the accepted norm?

I asked my friend why it was this way and she replied:"Clothes just look better on that body type, why do you think I am going to the gym so much."

Mind blown.

Instead of providing us with options of our varied body types look at us being force fed this one kind. Smh. Then look at all the billboards. One type of beauty.

How do you start finding yourself beautiful in this society?

Samira wrote: "You know how when you decide to start paying attention to things you didn't realize before. You kind of see it everywhere.

So, the other day I was in the mall being all happy in my maintaining the..."

The job of mannequins, just like the fashion industry in general, and media is to promote Eurocentric beauty ideals; to showcase the one ideal woman, not to help individual women find their beauty.

But at the same time, I have to ask, why is women finding their beauty still center stage? Let me speak of myself in this regard. I personally have no interest in joining any "feel beautiful" and "love your body" campaign. I tried and I dropped out because I don't love my body but I don't hate it either. I'm simply indifferent to it. I need my body to get me out of my bed in the morning, to get me to the office, to work a computer, form speech, and to haul shopping bags from the supermarket. Basically, my body doesn't need to be pretty to perform any of the tasks that make up my daily routine at the moment, it just needs to be healthy and functional. I'm fine with not being beautiful, whether for myself or for anyone else. It doesn't diminish my view or opinion of myself simply because it's irrelevant to the scale that I use to measure myself. However, as we are now, even in performing mundane tasks, I'm still expected to look, be and feel beautiful.

I'm all for women being beautiful and/or even being celebrated for it, if it weren't tied to our humanity. The problem is that with the current feel beautiful campaigns, I feel that it's still being made compulsory for us to perform beauty. Our humanity is still being valued based primarily on our aesthetics. It's like we're basically being told that we deserve to and/or we must feel beautiful because our humanity depends on it.

I'd like to see a mannequin that looks like me just so I can get a preview of what that dress would look like on me without the hassle of dipping into a changing room, not so I can be made to feel beautiful to affirm my humanity. If I get complimented on my looks, I want it to be because someone just appreciates my look, not because my life depends on it. I want to be treated as a full, independent person without first being filtered through a lens of attractiveness. I don't want to be beautiful, I just want to be.

Your comment, Nikky, might actually be the best thing about my day.

"lens of attractiveness" like for women especially. Yoh.

how we say things like "At least she is pretty" or say things 'Someone will find you beautiful one day & it won't matter"

like at the end of the day, our worth is still tied to how we look.

I can't really articulate what I'm trying to say. but thanks, Nikky!!!

Nikky wrote: "I feel that it's still being made compulsory for us to perform beauty. Our humanity is still being valued based primarily on our aesthetics. It's like we're basically being told that we deserve to and/or we must feel beautiful because our humanity depends on it...."

This made me think of the guys who say stuff like," Take her swimming on the first date'' Or you know those before/ after make-up photos, and someone captions it with, ''This is why I have trust issues''

Or comments like, ''I prefer you without make-up"
Cues One Direction ''You're insecure. Don't know what for...Don't need make-up to cover up..."

I always felt like they were placing too much importance on how women look. How desirable they find us.

While I'm at it, this topic of make-up;
from what lens do you view this ?
Is make-up about empowerment or social pressure ?

Do you wear make-up as a form of self-expression or to meet beauty standards?

Why do you or don't you wear make-up?

Personally, I wear make up because I genuinely like how my face looks. And finding the perfect lipstick shade makes Me so happy.

but I can say that I sometimes feel less attractive without make up and I can't imagine why someone would compliment me barefaced. So I have no direct answer to your question :D

Nanania wrote: "Nikky wrote: "I feel that it's still being made compulsory for us to perform beauty. Our humanity is still being valued based primarily on our aesthetics. It's like we're basically being told that ..."

I wear make-up because it boosts my confidence. Like I'm fine without it, around people that I know. Or like, in school on a day to day basis. But when I'm going out for something, or when I'm meeting new people, I need it to boost my self-confidence. It feels like armour. I came here to slay. Lol. I don't know. Is this societal pressure? I feel it is.

Nanania wrote: "Nikky wrote: "I feel that it's still being made compulsory for us to perform beauty. Our humanity is still being valued based primarily on our aesthetics. It's like we're basically being told that ..."

I do have a stick of lipstick, a compact eye shadow set, one mascara and an eye pencil that a couple friends bought me but I only used them a few times last year. I don't wear makeup out of a combination of laziness and a general lack of concern about my appearance beyond functionality. I just can't be bothered to learn how to do make-up

Nikky wrote: "I don't wear makeup out of a combination of laziness and a general lack of concern about my appearance beyond functionality. I just can't be bothered to learn how to do make-up"

Same girl. Same.
Like, I have 5 pairs of shoes (anything beyond would be so overwhelming to me), I wear my hair the same way everyday, I have very few clothes because it's easier to pick an outfit that way. I truly do not care much beyond functionality. I just need to get where I need to be, perform my duties to the best of my ability and go back home.

Also, I dislike hypervisbility. I am a person who is fat so I already experience some extent of hypervisibility and it makes me uncomfortable. For me, wearing make-up would mean making me even more visible which I can't deal with. So I don't.

Samira wrote: "You know how when you decide to start paying attention to things you didn't realize before. You kind of see it everywhere.

So, the other day I was in the mall being all happy in my maintaining the..."

I saw plus size mannequins somewhere on Moi Avenue and even though they weren't truly plus size- they had thigh gaps, *side-eyes in true plus size*- I was lowkey stoked. However, it is exhausting to see body types in typical mannequins everywhere as though women of different body types don't exist or don't want to wear stylish clothes. I always look at it as society telling us that fat women are a misnomer and therefore will not be catered for. And when we are, we should be grateful someone is paying us any mind.

About the mannequins, I feel like technology should have evolved beyond mannequins anyway. Think a touch pad (inside high end clothing stores of course)
that can pair any outfit with the different body types present within the society..and even build your body if none of the custom ones present, fit you to the letter. Maybe something like this exists already.

Leyla wrote: "Nikky wrote: "I don't wear makeup out of a combination of laziness and a general lack of concern about my appearance beyond functionality. I just can't be bothered to learn how to do make-up"

Same..."

Leyla, I feel you on that hypervisibility. Like, I've got the fat and dark skin thing already going for me. I spent most of my childhood not just being/feeling invisible but being constantly reminded to stay so. And tbh, I'm still reminded to stay invisible whenever a conventionally beautiful woman or any other woman deemed more attractive than I am (which is most women, really) walks into a room. Perhaps my indifference to the beauty industry partly stems from that, getting used to the idea that it's not made for me anyway.

Whenever I tell people that the only reason I never fell for the River Road skin lighteners when I was younger is because I couldn't afford them on a school kid's allowance, they don't believe me. By the time I could afford them, I'd stopped worrying about my appearance. Most people confuse my general indifference to (my) attractiveness with body confidence/body positivity.

At the same time, I don't really see the situation re the beauty myth changing because those with privilege are either fighting to keep the status quo, don't see the problem and don't care. As we've already established, the beauty myth is about prescription of behaviour and those of us who don't fit the mould are deemed unreliable witnesses to our own lives so our criticism of the system is filed under "ugly, bitter bitch"

Ok, so I've read this and they're all super interesting and a thought occurred to me and I wanted to share with you guys so you let me know what your thoughts are on it. It's still an incomplete thought process for me, so it'd be interesting to have your input then will share my full thoughts on it once they're formed.

Is Beauty solely a function of patriarchy? Can beauty in women exist separate of patriarchy? Can we have our own gazes or are they all tainted by patriarchy?

Aisha wrote: "Ok, so I've read this and they're all super interesting and a thought occurred to me and I wanted to share with you guys so you let me know what your thoughts are on it. It's still an incomplete th..."

At the moment, I think even our own gazes are still tainted by patriarchy but let's follow up your questions with a few others. What function does beauty in women serve, period? Even within our own gaze, let's say women find and see beauty within ourselves, then what? So what? If the converse of beauty as a function of patriarchy is beauty outside of it, what function does beauty in women serve within our own space and gaze and who gets to define said beauty? Which goes back to my original concern, why must women be beautiful? If we can answer that, then I think we can easily answer your questions

Nikky wrote: "What function does beauty in women serve, period? Even within our own gaze, let's say women find and see beauty within ourselves, then what? So what?

Well, I'll follow this up with another question. What's the function of beauty anywhere? Why do we ooh aaah at sunsets, and animals and furniture and mountains and the beach etc? And is this separate in how what beauty is for women?

Aisha wrote: "Nikky wrote: "What function does beauty in women serve, period? Even within our own gaze, let's say women find and see beauty within ourselves, then what? So what?

Well, I'll follow this up with ..."

TBH, I'm a bit wary about drawing parallels with inanimate objects and animals

Nikky wrote: TBH, I'm a bit wary about drawing parallels with inanimate objects and animals."

I understand but I'm thinking more in how we humans perceive beauty rather than what we think is beautiful. Why do we find some things beautiful and some not. Why do beautiful things give us pleasure?

What I'm trying to say is to me, the concept of beauty seems to be more an innate human thing. What we find beautiful however is what depends on our perceptions based on socialization.

I feel like there are beautiful men and beautiful women but it's only women who are expected to perform beauty for the male gaze to be considered valuable and I guess this is where the problem is. Also, is beauty only present when you're adorned? Can't a functional body with no adornments be beautiful? After all, it is perception not a real tangible thing.

Maybe it's the idea that to be beautiful you have to be adorned and made up and all that that is patriarchal but not beauty itself. I don't know.

Aisha wrote: "Nikky wrote: TBH, I'm a bit wary about drawing parallels with inanimate objects and animals."

I understand but I'm thinking more in how we humans perceive beauty rather than what we think is beaut..."

I'll have to think on this.

However, on the point "Also, is beauty only present when you're adorned? Can't a functional body with no adornments be beautiful?"

I think within the patriarchal context we go back to beauty as a prescription of behaviour rather than strict physical attractiveness. Example, that random girl in the street, your girlfriend etc needing to be made up and adorned to be beautiful (to attract a mate and prove she can produce progeny) but as soon as she becomes a wife/mother (attracts a mate and produces the desired progeny) then her beauty requires that her body becomes purely functional, mammy-ish if you will, with minimal adornments

I had a MINOR accident last week. I'm fine guys,calm down.
I have a chipped tooth(incisor),a bump on my head and a black eye.
I promise i'm fine.
However,I look and feel terrible, mostly feel.I feel that I look like Quasimodo without the hunchback. I've decided that after my trip to the hospital, I will not leave the house this week. Why?
Because I don't feel and look beautiful, at least physically.
Yes,my tooth will get fixed and my black eye will die down (or i'll get an eye patch and i'll be Nick Fury for a week) but my current situation got me thinking about the subjectivity of beauty.

Aisha wrote: " the concept of beauty seems to be more an innate human thing. What we find beautiful however is what depends on our perceptions based on socialization.

She had previously asked whether we could have our own gazes of beauty.In my current situation, I consider myself ''less attractive'' based on my usual appearance.

The Beauty Myth (so far in my reading,I am slacking, are you?) talks about extrinsic factors. What about intrinsic factors?

For instance, the relationship between beauty and self-esteem. I read that;
"It is difficult to determine if beautiful people have higher self-esteem or if people who have high self-esteem feel more beautiful. Generally, these two concepts are intertwined, but can be separated from a subjective standpoint with evaluation."

What do you think about beauty and self-esteem? And how is this related to the beauty myth?

Hi,

Nothing much to say but, (i) Yes Juls, I'm slacking :-( and (ii) *huuuggssss* :-)

I've thought about this for a while and I feel like it's cyclic. And it also depends on the kind of person you are. Because, some people have high sense of self which is hinged directly on how they feel about how beautiful they are, while there are some people who are "conventionally beautiful" who don't feel very good about themselves. Also, I'd think people with a high self esteem that is hinged on other things besides how they look, tend to feel better about themselves even if they are not conventionally beautiful. Probably also on your upbringing. If you grew up in an affirming environment, where you were told you are good and you are worthy you're more likely to have a higher sense of self. Someone I was talking to about this said it's the difference between Kim Kardashian and Cardi B. Lol. Can't entirely judge because I am not privy to their inner workings, but Kim K changed a bunch of her body parts and seems more confident for it, while Cardi B won't change hers but is still confident, and both, I would say, feel beautiful. I don't know if I'm making much sense. It's almost 4 a.m. But yeah.

Here's something about make up that I found interesting from here: http://thenewinquiry.com/features/dea...

Dear Marooned Alien Princess,

I enjoy following you for your love of cosmetics as well as your love for talking about “serious” issues. My problem is I feel dependent on makeup and other enhancers, like I am not good enough to be “all natural.” I really do feel more confident when I have my makeup and hair extensions. Am I a disgrace of a self-hating woman?

You are no disgrace, love. You are merely human. We live in a petty, vain society that mistreats us based on how we look. The enhancements we wear often help us to better fit beauty ideals. Beauty is power. More perceived beauty for women leads to more perceived humanity, better treatment, and more access to resources. To feel better when you are being treated better is absolutely merited and normal.

While some of us wear makeup because it’s fun, some of us have skin conditions to cover up, or simply feel prettier with it on. All of those are OK reasons to wear makeup, because guess what: It’s your face and you get to do WTF you want with it.

The world is cruel. They will put you down for what they call defects, put you down for feeling bad about yourself, and then put you down for feeling confident too. The darker you are as a woman, the more shit you will get, whether you feel good or bad about yourself or in between.

They put us down for not fitting their ideals and then trash us for altering our appearance to be more what they deem acceptable. If you think you’re cute as you are, they will then remind you they don’t think you deserve to love yourself.

The “natural” look they worship only applies if you naturally look like a mannequin. That never goes for those of us with pores, pockmarks, acne, skin conditions, etc. They hate us for being all-natural in that case. We get no praise for not caking things on our face like their so-called vain hoes.

Self-love is also now seen as mandatory, a thing to be shamed for if you don’t have it, all while they pick us apart. Somehow, the point is always to dictate how we can and can’t feel, not to help us. Help would be to offer loving acceptance and support, to put in work to change society so we are not dehumanized for things as simple as appearance.

The darker and more marginalized we are, the more effort we have to put in to be considered acceptable, too. Rich white hipsters can be raggedy and dirty and it’s cool. Lower class black women in the same garb and conditions are considered sad ghetto trash. But we are also judged for dressing up when we are poor. Nothing we do is ever enough to be human.

I’d love to wake up in the morning and roll out of bed feeling I was cute enough like that, too. But society begs to differ, and abuses me more if I do. It’s gotten to the point where I see women who walk around in sweats without makeup and wish I could feel as comfortable as them. What that really means: I wish I could still be treated like a human being if I did. Cosmetics can be serious business.

We can be adversely affected by how the world ­mistreats us. But we get to cope however we can. We get to find comfort in whatever the fuck we can. And we get to do whatever makes us feel most beautiful.

Nanania wrote: "I had a MINOR accident last week. I'm fine guys,calm down.
I have a chipped tooth(incisor),a bump on my head and a black eye.
I promise i'm fine.
However,I look and feel terrible, mostly feel.I fee..."

So sorry about your accident. Glad you're ok. Hugs

Thank you :)
Also,
I've added some videos (ted talks) ,
"looks aren't everything and a Darwinian theory of beauty.''
Check them out via PC in the videos tab,comment and add whatever else you feel is relevant.