Brilliant Buddy Reads discussion

Join us for a buddy read of Monsters of Men, the third and final installment in the Chaos Walking trilogy.


"War," says the Mayor. "At last." Three armies march on New Prentisstown, each one intent on destroying the others. Todd and Viola are caught in the middle, with no chance of escape. As the battles commence, how can they hope to stop the fighting? How can there ever be peace when they're so hopelessly outnumbered? And if war makes monsters of men, what terrible choices await? But then a third voice breaks into the battle, one bent on revenge - the electrifying finale to the award-winning "Chaos Walking" trilogy, Monsters of Men is a heart-stopping novel about power, survival, and the devastating realities of war.

Captain Hammar and Captain Morgan in the same sentence had me bursting out laughing. I imagined Nathan Fillion doing the 'got a little captn in me' stance on a rum barrel.

I noticed the Captain Morgan thing and found it very amusing. I had to pause to think of what Ness was doing when he named the character.

Needed a break from The Raven King, so got some reading of this done after all.

Ha- I hadn't noticed Captain Hammar and Morgan's names :)


Up to page 60 (10%)

If either of you need a little refresher on the last book like I did, I thought this summary was pretty good: http://chaoswalking.wikia.com/wiki/Th...

This beginning has certainly been action packed! Which isn't too surprising, given how The Ask and the Answer ended, but still. I've thought the descriptions of (view spoiler)[the battle with the added craziness of Noise from Todd's POV have been well done. I can't imagine how awful that situation would be to live through. (hide spoiler)]

I'd partially forgotten what an evil, manipulative b------ Mayor Prentiss is, but he's at it again! (view spoiler)[I'm sure he's going to hold saving Todd's life (more than once) over his head... Which is, of course, completely ridiculous since the Spackle genocide and, thus, the Spackle attacking and Todd being in the battle are all the Mayor's fault to begin with. (hide spoiler)]

We jump right in to the moral dilemmas that were well done in the last book (although I really thought Todd was being an idiot for most of it), specifically (view spoiler)[Viola trying to decide whether to have Simone attack the Spackle with a missile, saving Todd but potentially starting future conflicts. She is saved from having to actually make that decision, but what choice would you have made in her position if the Mayor hadn't turned out to have missiles of his own?
I really don't know what I would have done. Part of me would definitely be siding with the Spackle like Bradley, given that they are the native inhabitants of that world and had a real grievance against the Mayor. But not saving Todd after everything he and Viola had been through together (and so soon after her losing her parents) would be nearly impossible. And, of course, there is the possibility that Mistress Coyle is right and the Spackle would eradicate all the humans if they were to win. So, basically, I have no idea- I might tell Simone I wasn't fit to make such a decision and she had to make it on her own. A complete cop out, but potentially better than letting my (theoretical) feelings for Todd make the decision or living with myself if I told them not to save Todd. (hide spoiler)]

I'm kind of annoyed because I happened to look at the chapter names on the Table of Contents, and feel somewhat spoiled about the direction the book is going to go. So I would advise against that.
Chapter naming is an interesting thing... Sometimes they can really add, but you need them to be obscure enough not to spoil your readers. Laini Taylor does this well. Not infrequently I just prefer numbered chapters.

I really hope nothing happens to Angharrad. After Manchee, I'm not sure I could take it.

I have no clue what page I'm on, but I think I got to about 30% of the way. So much has been happening and I feel like I haven't been reading that long.

I like the way it was a direct continuation. I appreciate books like that.

I love the way Ness words things in a sporadic way, especially when dealing with Todd's PoV. I think it adds to the setting and the panic that's happening.

I'm expecting the Mayor (view spoiler)[ to definitely want repayment for saving Todd. (hide spoiler)]

I also find the developments that Todd is undergoing (view spoiler)[ such as with his Noise and being able to control people (hide spoiler)] is really interesting and I'm curious as to how that will play out. My guess is that he will (view spoiler)[ somehow end up controlling the Mayor. (hide spoiler)]

I feel like (view spoiler)[ Viola having to choose whether or not they attack the Spackle is a weird thing. I don't get why the decision has to be up to her, she is only a child, as Bradley has said. I personally wouldn't have been able to make the decision. (hide spoiler)]

Later, (view spoiler)[ when she has a chance to make it again and she takes it, I think she did it under strenuous circumstances, although I have to say, she doesn't think about her actions as deeply as I think she should. (hide spoiler)]

I don't think I like the addition of (view spoiler)[ the Return as of yet. I feel that he doesn't add much to the story, but maybe I am just being picky. I feel like his part of the chapters are a summary of what happened throughout the rest of the chapter. Hopefully his chapters will give more insight later on. (hide spoiler)]

I agree with you Emily, I hate when chapter titles give away things. They are at the beginning of books, so you think you should be safe. I definitely prefer number titles.

Up to 'And a Third' (12%)

I've been thinking the same thing about Angharrad too! After the dog, it will gut my heart out if something happens to the horse. I always seem to get more attached to the animals than the people in stories. Like, sometimes, when they kill a human, you're almost desensitized to it. But if someone kills a dog or something? It wrecks me!

I feel like a lot has happened and that nothing has really happened at the same time. With Todd's group, it's just loud noise after BOOM after loud noise in the Noise, and the writing is pretty intense. And with Viola, it almost seems like a stalemate as they go back and forth trying to decide which side to help. I think (view spoiler)[I would agree with Bradley, and just pick up and move to another side of the planet and let the humans and Spackle duke it out. If I flew all the way through space to reach a new civilization and got there just to realize we were still basically barbains fighting out wars, I would be pretty deflated and want to try all over again (hide spoiler)].

Todd is an interesting character. I, too, spent much of the last novel irritated with him. And here, I tend to agree with his inner thought process that it was stupid to let the Mayor go in the first place. But the Mayor is a great character too. I just love to hate him, especially, after what happened to his son =(

I agree, Ivy, that it's nice that this book picked up right where the last one left off.

I'm glad my kindle skipped over the TOC and that my hardback copy hasn't arrived yet. I'll make sure to pass over the TOC and miss the spoilers. I'm with you both on that one. It irritates me with episode titles (and cover art on season DVDs) that spoil it before you get a chance to get to that point in the media. I think I prefer numbered chapters most of the time as well (although Ellen DeGeneres's chapter titles are always hysterical). Amanda Hocking is an author that sticks out that uses chapter titles and I wish she wouldn't. I remember every book I've read by her has had chapter titles that seem pointless and add absolutely nothing to the book IMHO.

I agree about how Ness words things in Todd’s POVs, Ivy- it’s perfect for depicting Noise, especially panicked or distressed Noise.
I just wish I liked Viola’s POVs as much, but I’ve always found those a little bland. And yet, at least I don’t want to shake her very often, unlike Todd ;) Elise, I also think that it was pretty stupid to let the Mayor go. (On that decision I can at least understand Todd's reasoning, but others he made…) It will make for an interesting book, though. I don’t think the Mayor is someone anyone should ever trust (look at Davy). He’s one of my favorite villains, I think, because he is so complex and manipulative.

Yeah, if this book hadn’t picked up right after the second I would have been frustrated because it would have been unrealistic and caused the series to lose all the momentum that grew in the last book. So good choice there. I don’t understand why so many trilogies have time pass between books, especially after big, exciting endings and cliffhangers. I guess it makes the whole series stretch over a longer period so you can believe the character development and such, but still.


Up to "The Storm"- 19%

You have a good point, Elise. It (view spoiler)[has been a fair amount of things seeming like they are happening without actually advancing very far. A lot of noise (of all types ;)). I guess that’s sort of how war can be though, lots of fighting while the armies often remaining pretty stalemated. (Not that I know much about it.) Ness has done a good job of keeping it exciting and me on the edge of my seat, though. Less so in this section since the battle ended, obviously, but still. (hide spoiler)]

Ness seems to be setting things up to (view spoiler)[have Todd and Viola apart for a lot of this book again. I see why, he wants to have multiple plot lines going on, but I am a bit bummed. I liked Todd and Viola much better in the first book when they were together. Maybe the comms will assist with this problem, though. I’m worried about the Mayor’s influence on Todd and the change to his noise that has just started, especially without Viola there. I’m guessing that’s how I’m supposed to be feeling, though. Never trust the Mayor, Todd! (hide spoiler)]

Since I'm not that far, I didn't click on your spoilers yet, Ivy, with the exception of the last one because I guessed what you were going to say. I'm actually really liking learning more about (view spoiler)[the Spackle. I've always found sociology-type things interesting, so I'm liking thinking about how a culture might have formed in a place where everyone could hear everyone else's thoughts. (Do the Spackle women have Noise as well? I'm assuming so based on their language and society. And I think female animals have Noise because Angharrad is female and does. I wonder why other female organisms have Noise and human women don't… Plot hole or something Ness will reveal the reason for? I wonder. (Remind me if this has already been answered and I’m just forgetting.) Anyways, got off on a tangent.) We've seen how it has caused catastrophic issues within human society in these books, so I'm enjoying the Spackle's completely different approach to the whole issue (of course it’s one that developed over a very long period of time, I assume). The background we got on the Return was nice as well, since it explained a lot about his character- namely why he hated Todd so completely, even from the beginning. It’s nice that his POV’s are pretty short, though, because I don’t know that he adds a ton from a personality perspective. And I can see where you’re coming from about them not adding much so far plot-wise either. (hide spoiler)]

Up to 13%

'And this, perversely, is why the Return hates the Knife, shows the Sky.

He is worse than the others, I show. He is worst of all of them... because he knew he was doing wrong. He felt the pain of his actions... but he did not amend them.'


This is such a great and powerful point of this book to me. I know the second book was set up to be this huge mortal dilemma and supposed to be very deep and thought provoking... I never got that feeling in the Ask and the Answer. But this line speaks volumes into human nature for me. I think one of the biggest problems we have is when we see something wrong (things as big as the Holocaust to as small as bullying in school, etc.) and we know it is wrong, but we do nothing to stop it and, even worse, sometimes partake in the actions we know we are against (such as Todd does).

Sometimes, inaction can be just as harmful as action, even if the silent don't have meanest in their heart.

I completely agree!
This poses and interesting question: who is the worse person- someone who does something wrong and doesn't feel bad about it because they don't have a sense of right and wrong (like say Davy) or someone who does something wrong even though they know it is wrong and they feel bad about it (like Todd in some of the things he did in the second book)?
I really don't know the answer to that question. The Return seems to think Todd is the worse of the two though.

I have to say that both of your insights into why the Return is important has helped me cope better with his chapters and the reasoning behind why they are integral. I read his chapters with a sort of detached view for some reason, maybe because they are worded the way they are, as a group sort of more than an individual. But the cultural of the Spackle is intriguing and I do like to learn about the type of creatures they are and it helps you feel they are more intelligent and not just mindless creatures that deserve death for no reason. I feel a lot of humans (as a group) think they have a right to whatever they can conquer, which isn't the best way to view things.

Thank you for developing my thoughts further.

I’m glad, Ivy- you're welcome! That’s one of the things that makes buddy reads so great :)
I’ve been thinking more about what it would be like to be part of the Land- whether I would like or hate it. Individuality is a big part of our society, and I would hate to give up my opinions and unique aspects, and yet, I would never be lonely or without comfort and companionship. But no alone time. Probably best to just have a pet instead ;)


Up to “Closing In”- 32%

I find Mistress Coyle almost as interesting a character as the Mayor. Not that I really consider her a villain. She is a bit blinded by her overwhelming hatred of the Mayor and a bit obsessed with bombs, and she wants power too much, but I can't say she was exactly wrong in a lot of things in the last book or that in her position I wouldn't have chosen to make similar decisions. I mean, part of me hates her for betraying Viola in the last book, but I have no question who the real villain is here. Now I disagree with her position on ideals (basically that they are useless), but I also have quite a bit of relative luxury that gives me leeway to believe in them. And I vastly prefer the quote from the last book regarding her view of leadership- "being a leader is making the people you love hate you a little more each day"- to the Mayor's- "Leadership isn’t grown, Viola. It’s taken...".
Bradley is used in an interesting way as a foil to Mistress Coyle. I wonder if his idealistic positions will stay the same over the course of the book or if he’ll have a bit of a rude wake-up call. I liked what he said about choices: "I hope I’d make the right choice, but Viola it is a choice. To say you have no choice is to release yourself from responsibility and that’s not how a person with integrity acts.” I think that’s really true- people will say that they didn’t have a choice in order to keep from taking responsibility for their actions. There is almost always a choice, even if you only find it possible to make one decision.

The exploration of the theme of (view spoiler)[the two sides of the coin of love fascinates me- the negative consequences that can come about from the wonderful emotion. Specifically, the whole “does love make us dangerous?” question that Viola is asking herself. I do think that love can sometimes make people not consider the needs of those other than their loved ones as much. And other times love can engender much greater sympathy for strangers than a person would otherwise feel. (hide spoiler)] Sorry, I’m rambling on too much in this post.

Some major questions I have at the moment that I’m really hoping get answered: (view spoiler)[1. Why is the Mayor so interested, even invested, in Todd? I wondered if Todd could actually be his son, but considering he had no real attachment to Davy, that wouldn’t really explain it. I mean risking his own neck to come back for Todd when the Spackle were firing those fire boomerangs just seems a very unusual action from him. 2. What is the significance of the phrase “I am the circle and the circle is me”? At first, I just thought it was something the Mayor had chosen for personal reasons to focus his thoughts, but the phrase working so well for Todd as well makes me think it might be something more. 3. I am extremely curious about the Sky’s source of information! I’m guessing it’s a human, but who? Most characters are accounted for.. unless Ben or Cillian somehow survived? 4. What was with that weird interaction with Jane when Viola was speaking to Mistress Coyle? Was Viola actually hallucinating and talking to herself as a result of her infection? (Every time one of these bands is mentioned, it causes me almost physical discomfort imagining one on me.) (hide spoiler)]

Up to Down in the Valley (25%)

Sorry I'm so slow, had my mother over for the weekend for an early Mother's Day =)

Emily wrote: "This poses and interesting question: who is the worse person- someone who does something wrong and doesn't feel bad about it because they don't have a sense of right and wrong (like say Davy) or someone who does something wrong even though they know it is wrong and they feel bad about it (like Todd in some of the things he did in the second book)? "

Oh man, that's a toughie. I think maybe someone who does something wrong even though they know it is wrong. I think the fact that they feel bad about it makes it a little better - and if that keeps them from doing the same type of thing a second time then maybe they aren't so bad after all. But I think people that know something is wrong but do it regardless, repeatedly, are the worse. I think both the Davy and the Todd types have a chance of at least changing themselves for the better.



I'm the same as you, Ivy, with respect to the Returned's chapters. So far, they haven't felt that engaging, perhaps because he almost seems to speak in a detached voice himself.

With what Emily said about the Land, I think I like being closed off (same with the Noise; I don't think I would like that either). When I'm even just in a crowded restaurant, sometimes I have to excuse myself and go outside until I calm down as all the different noises and separate conversations make me disassociate a bit. Not being able to disconnect and having that all the time? I'd probably get used to it, but just the thought of it terrifies me. But I think it would probably make society better to some extent. There would be no point in lying, for instance, because everyone would be able to know what you truly think/feel.

Up to Speaking with the Enemy (37%)

There has definitely been a lot of action in this novel so far. I think it's my favorite of the trilogy, at least up to this point, but I'm not the biggest fan of Todd at the moment. As someone who has staunchly been against the Mayor the entire time, it's interesting to see his develop as of late. (view spoiler)[As he starts to clean how to control with the whole 'I am the circle and the circle is me', I'm starting to see side of the Mayor in him. While he's still adament against the mayor, he's starting to use the same tricks the mayor uses to control/win over people. So I guess the question becomes, will Todd use this burgeoning power for good or will he become the type of person he's detested? I'm honestly not sure at this point which way it will go (hide spoiler)].

That's a good point Ivy made about Viola. Why was (view spoiler)[the decision left up to her? She has no military strategy and is probably one of the youngest in the group. Sure, she's been on the ground for a while, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me when I stop to think about it. The fact that she has a crush on Todd shouldn't really factor into the decision making (hide spoiler)]

I like what Emily pointed out about Viola questioning whether or not love might make us dangerous. Honestly, I think Viola and Todd are too young to even really understand what true, meaningful love for a significant other means. And I think it has less impact for me when the plot seems to revolve around the relationship between these early teens. But I do kind of understand Ness's point.

I think that decision being left up to Viola has less to do with sense and more to do with her unique position and the feelings Bradley and Simone had for her. The two of them weren’t caught up yet in everything, their main entanglement was with Viola. a)They had to make a decision quickly and Viola was the only one they trusted with all the information. b)They had just found out that she had lost her parents and gone through these horrible experiences, so I think it was an emotional decision, not a rational one. And remember, (view spoiler)[in the end, Simone hesitated and probably wasn’t actually going to bomb the Spackle, despite Viola asking them to. Viola had to push the button herself. (hide spoiler)]

I understand your point, Elise, about Todd and Viola not really understanding love. However, I think they have had to grow up pretty fast over the course of the books. I agree they have a lot to learn about being in a relationship, but part of me thinks they could make it- they’ve supported each other through a lot already. But at the same time, I don’t know- part of me sees their relationship as born more from desperation and not having anyone else than compatibility. Once they get to a point where they hopefully have more normal lives and other choices for partners, they might not find each other so appealing. So I guess, on the whole, I'm kind of a romantic, but Viola and Todd's relationship doesn't ring 100% true love to me.


Up to “The Envoy”- 50%

I think the first book is still my favorite, but I am enjoying this one. As you said, Elise, Todd’s development is very interesting. (view spoiler)[I can’t decide what him stepping forward and taking control in this last scene (shown from the point of view of the Return) to offer the Spackle peace shows in terms of his true inner self and morality. Does it mean he’s going in a good direction- using his position for good in forging peace- or a bad one- seeking power? I’m leaning towards good, but I guess we’ll have to see what he does now. (hide spoiler)]
Regarding Todd, I haven’t been able to decide if (view spoiler)[the dampening of his emotions provided by “I am the circle and the circle is me” is supposed to be a horrible thing or not. Todd has been through horrific experiences and I’m sure has some PTSD, so it could just be like an antidepressant in helping control the emotions from all of that. Or is it eliminating all his emotions, which would be awful? I can’t tell. (hide spoiler)]
At the same time, I’m tired of (view spoiler)[the Mayor and Mistress Coyle jockeying for power at the expense of the bigger picture. So I hope that we’re now largely finished with that. (hide spoiler)]

I’ve decided I really hate the plot device of people keeping secrets from each other in order to protect the other. It happens all the time in books to create or prolong conflict, and it annoys me. I guess I’m of the opinion that the truth will eventually come out and keeping it from people can do more damage than the truth itself. There are horrible truths, but they need to be faced and dealt with. For example, (view spoiler)[how does Viola really think hiding the extent of her illness is going to help Todd? If she dies, does she think he’ll deal with it better because he had less time to prepare? And Todd thinks that being less upfront with Viola about the change in his noise is going to be helpful? I just don’t get it. I guess it’s just avoidance on both of their parts, but ugh! (hide spoiler)]

I am very curious about (view spoiler)[the “Pathway’s End”. It makes sense that something like that would need to exist for the Sky to be able to effectively lead the Land, but I don’t think the explanation of how it works has been well done. And Ben! I really hope he doesn’t get killed after essentially being brought back to life! (hide spoiler)]

Up to The One in Particular (52%)

I don't know if it is just my current mood or what but I've found myself stalling out in this novel. The power struggle between the Mayor and Coyle is getting repetitive and really isn't holding my attention anymore.

I agree that Viola (view spoiler)[keeping the severity of her sickness is just plain silly at this point. Todd has already been told that it's killing people. Why lie about it? (hide spoiler)] And about Todd and the secrets he's keeping. The fast pacing of the novel has seemed to slow down as we just keep doing the same thing over and over again.

I've found myself stalling out too. Now part of that is definitely that I'm in a weird reading mood- I keep starting books but am having a hard time getting myself to keep going with any of them. But I think a lot of it is for the reason you mention. The power struggles just keep repeating between (view spoiler)[the four actors of the Mayor, Mistress Coyle, Simone and Bradley, and the Spackle, with Todd and Viola mixed in, but mostly just between the first two. (hide spoiler)] It's an interesting power struggle, as they go, but it's still like, haven't we been here before?


Up to "Separations"- 68%

Which is (view spoiler)[why I was really hoping for a second there that we had finally gotten rid of the Mayor. And Mistress Coyle- but mostly the Mayor. Now usually I'm not one for big questions being left unanswered in books, but I think it might have been interesting to have left whether the Mayor was really changing or just playing a really long game in deceiving Todd (which still has my bet) up in the air for readers to decide for themselves. And then there would have been a big power vacuum for Todd and Viola to try and fill, which could have been an interesting obstacle. But no, we still have the Mayor- annoying. Hopefully Ben will come shake everything up at least soon. (hide spoiler)]

So it's (view spoiler)[ a link between Todd and the Mayor's minds. I wonder if he's really teaching Todd to read, or just making him think the book says what he wants him to think it says. I also wonder if the Mayor wasn't able to create such a link with Davy and that's why he found him disposable. I'm wanting to shake Todd again because "It goes both ways, Todd! If you're changing the Mayor for the better, he's changing you for the worse!" Making whichever Mr. it was step into the fire- that is not a good sign for Todd.
I'm rethinking there being really any advantages to the Spackle all being connected. Because it would mean no one would ever be able to distinguish themselves in any way- good or bad. Everyone would be perfectly average. Which I would hate. (hide spoiler)]

Elise- things start picking up about 66%. And by 75% they start flying. So hang in there a little longer!


Up to 84%

Wow. Just wow. That was one heck of a climax, and it's not over yet! I think that ranks on my theoretical list of best action climax scenes in books!

Beyond that, not really sure what to say. Drawing a blank- maybe I'll have some thoughts after I think for a while.
Except that where I thought the book was heading after reading the TOC turned out to be wrong, although it could have made for an interesting story line- (view spoiler)[ I thought "The End of New World" followed by "Arrival" meant that they were leaving New World on the arriving space ship to return to Old World or somewhere else, but now I get it. (hide spoiler)]

Finished

Well, (view spoiler)[as my mother would say, “That’s a hell of a note.” (Sorry, I usually try not to cuss in my posts, but not sure what else to say here.)
That was a powerful ending that I bet I will be thinking about for awhile. Todd’s death did affect me emotionally, although not maybe as much as it was supposed to. (hide spoiler)]

On the whole, I think it was a very well done series. Thought provoking, while exciting and pretty action-packed at the same time. The concept of a planet where people could read each other’s thoughts was spun really well into a story examining Noise and its effects from all different angles. It brought in some other interesting themes and lots of moral dilemmas and was a great one to talk about and buddy read. The Mayor is one of my all time favorite villains and one of my favorite characters to hate. He (view spoiler)[was so multi-layered and complex. He was completely psychotic, of course, but wonderfully manipulative and evil in an accessible way. (hide spoiler)] The series isn’t one of my favorites for some reason, but above average and one I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend.

Organizing my thoughts for my review- Some negatives:
-Todd and Viola’s love seemed somewhat immature and not necessarily based on real substance and compatibility. For example, it bugs me that (view spoiler)[Viola is immediately so distrustful of Todd when he saves the Mayor from Mistress Coyle’s suicide bomb, when she supposedly loves him so much. (hide spoiler)]
-The conflict between the Mayor and Mistress Coyle got old as it dragged on for too long over the course of two books.

I’m not sure whether to include the unique dialect as a plus or minus. I think after I got used to it, probably a plus, although it was done a little inconsistently in the second and third books.

What do you guys think were the pluses and minuses of the series/this book?

After reading the short story “Snowscape” (included at the end of my edition)

I’m not sure if I think this story added anything to the series or not. The bulk of the story was ok fun, but not necessary in any way. It added a little to the exploration of Noise, but nothing as thought provoking as I found most of the facets of the series. Now, the ending- (view spoiler)[I have to admit that I didn’t fully grasp things at the end of Monsters of Men, not realizing that they would be able to repair Todd’s body like they did Ben’s and bring him back to life. I didn’t relate the two situations. (I was imagining Todd living on as a part of the Voice of the Land/ New World without a body.) So this story made me figure out something I should have realized from the last book itself, but I feel like the ambiguous ending was more profound. This wrapped everything up more neatly, but I’m not sure that was a good thing. This is not the usual stance I would take. Usually I’m all for extra information, liking stories with additional POVs giving us a look before or after books, liking loose ends tied up and questions answered. However, I think it maybe detracts here from the deep feelings the enigmatic ending elicits without actually giving the reader more to go on. Readers who weren’t stupid like me would have hoped and assumed that Todd would wake up. It’s what is going to happen after or more of what happened in Haven while he was healing that would have been of interest, I think. It gave us a little of the latter, but not that much. (hide spoiler)]

Up to 79%

By 75%, they start flying (literally lol). Even though the action has definitely picked up, I'm still finding that I'm having to force myself to sit down and finish this one. The Mayor has become so bipolar in his public persona and in Todd's viewed perception of him that he's just not really a believable character for me any more because of these extremes. I understand what Ness was trying to do with his character (I think, maybe), but it just seems like he's totally gone off the rails at this point. And the whole thing with (view spoiler)[Ben is so confusing on how that happened/what exactly happened with him that I'm not sure I'm buying into that either (hide spoiler)]. Did I miss something with that/skim read over something important maybe? I'm having a difficult time following what's going on with The Return, The Sky, etc. etc.

Haha- I didn't even notice I was being punny ;)
I understand your feelings on the Mayor. I was really wanting to find out what was truly going on with him, so it kept me engaged. But (view spoiler)[it is hard to wrap your head around because he is definitely psychotic at this point. Maybe he always was and just isn't trying to hide it anymore, but as you said- definitely gone off the rails. We'll discuss more once you get to the end. There is an explanation that I found satisfactory, if that helps. He remains complex and enigmatic, but some questions are answered- although certainly not all. (hide spoiler)]
I don't think you probably missed anything about (view spoiler)[Ben. It was not explained very well. That could definitely have been done better. My understanding is that simply being immersed in the Voice of the Land for so many months while he was unconscious and healing, he picked up how they use Noise. But that doesn't really explain his EASE and seeming practice in using the Voice and everything. (hide spoiler)] There are some tricky concepts that Ness introduces that I like in theory, but that he wasn't the best in explaining (like also (view spoiler)[the Pathway's End (hide spoiler)], for example). I like him for being ambitious in imagining his sci-fi world full of Noise, but I wish he had developed a few of the details a bit better.
Now that I think about it, I agree that Ness's style in writing the Return's POV is not maybe as well suited to the action sequences because things were a bit confusing when he was telling events. I mean, it was all a bit confusing anyway because SO MUCH is going on here at the end, but especially from his POV.


Ok- some more thoughts that your comments inspired that I don't want to forget, but that YOU SHOULDN'T READ TILL YOU FINISH (the short story too, if your copy has it). :)
(view spoiler)[Thinking about things more, I'm noticing that there are a number of big questions that never get answered. I mean there's a number of questions surrounding the Mayor- why was he so much better with his Noise than everyone else? How did he discover all of this? That are left open. But also the fate of the women of the original Prentisstown, including Todd's mother. I mean, I know what I believe, as my end understanding of the Mayor leaves me to believe he would easily have killed all the women, but we don't know for sure. (Although I can't think of a very good argument for them having committed suicide.) I think Ness did a good job of leaving some ambiguity, while answering the biggest questions outright and leaving clues/arguments for others. I like the way this book left me feeling, still thinking but satisfied.
About Ben- maybe what we're supposed to think after the ending is that he picked up a lot of secrets about Noise while sort of floating out of body, like Todd is at the end, before he was healed by the Spackle. This whole returning to life thing is the hardest thing for me to suspend my disbelief regarding. I mean, Todd died. After not too long without blood flow, his brain would have been dead. I mean, in theory, the humans on New World are the same biologically as us. So while I can accept his spirt/soul/whatever remaining in the Voice of the world, I have a hard time imagining him being resurrected. Which is probably why until the short story, I didn't get where Ness was going with the ending. (hide spoiler)]

Finished.

I thought the ending for the mayor was deflating. All this build up to slow insanity and this tug of war with Todd's loyalty and then (view spoiler)[he just walks out into the tide and drowns himself (hide spoiler)]? Not cool. Given how hard he fights time and time again to defeat the Spackles and Coyle and to be President when they left the first town, it just seems so unlikely that he would (view spoiler)[take himself out of the equation like that. Especially since at that point it looked like he'd lost his mind completely, which would make him even less likely to follow reason (hide spoiler)]

I thought Todd's ending was rather ironic but kind of satisfying, except for (view spoiler)[the very end where apparently he becomes part of The Land or The Sky or something else similar? (hide spoiler)].

The one thing that really got me about the writing style turned out not to be the spelling/dialect but the half finished/chopped off sentences that came more and more frequently towards the end of the novel. For every single character, too! Not just a characterization for one of the characters, which I might have been able to live with. Sentence after sentence was incomplete, and I realize he was trying to add to the theme of the novel that way, but it honestly just made me skim read those entire sections.

I thought the Mayor admitted right at the end that (view spoiler)[he killed all the women after all (hide spoiler)], but maybe I read that wrong. There was so much back and forth and speculation and outright lying about that whole thing that who knows, no matter what he said.

That's a good comparison between Ben and Todd at the end. Haven't even stopped to think about it, but that seems like a likely assessment. I still don't understand why men had Noise and women did, or why the Mayor could control it better. I think if there had been any explanation about this, I might have been able to get into this novel better, but I think my biggest pet peeve with sci-fi/post-apocolyptic is where they just throw you into a world and basically say 'This is how it is! Don't ask why! Just believe it!' (COUGH LOOPER UGH COUGH) and my brain gets so bogged down in that it ruins a lot else for me. Which I think is why I'm still so obsessed with Michael Crichton's work, because he always found a way to weave the technical explanations (esplanashuns lol) into the narrative.

My version didn't have the short story (but it sounds like I didn't miss a whole lot). I do wonder if perhaps my mood lately has been effecting my interpretations/ratings of novels, because it seems like all this month I've been super picky lol.

About the ending regarding the Mayor: (view spoiler)[It was a bit anticlimactic, but I think he realized that he had been beaten in every way. His army had been freed from his control and would no longer follow him, there wasn't going to be war with the Spackle anymore, the women and Ben were still alive. I fully believe Todd would have killed the Mayor if he had too, and I think the Mayor realized this too. I think the Mayor really did come to care about Todd in the end and wanted him to retain his goodness, wanted to spare him having to make that decision and the changes it would bring to him, as well as potentially to his relationship with Viola. Although probably the biggest factor was that what the Mayor really wanted was to hear nothing. The only real way to achieve that, to free himself from the huge amount of Noise he could hear that was destroying his sanity, was death. I wonder if suicide was always a part of his plan, just via being overrun by an army of Spackle, taking down as many people and Spackle with himself as possible. So I found it a somewhat fitting end, personally. He was evil, and yet there were grains of humanity left in him. And I can certainly understand how Noise could have turned him crazy, make someone who must have been morally questionable to begin with do anything to try and stop it. (hide spoiler)]

Ok, so I wasn't the only one who didn't get exactly where Ness was going with the ending right away. That makes me feel better. Because at first, I thought the same thing as you, that (view spoiler)[Todd had become part of the Voice of the Land/Sky or the Voice of New World that was mentioned some. Now, while we could choose to go with that idea, the short story suggests something else. (hide spoiler)] I would agree you didn't miss too much regarding the short story, except for the final paragraphs. It's (view spoiler)[from Lee's POV on a scouting mission that he takes with Wilf and some of the new residents of New World after the main ship Viola came from arrives. They meet some weird and ominous Spackle. (hide spoiler)] But at the end of the story, (view spoiler)[Viola calls Lee to tell him that Todd "is awake". Which is why I'm assuming it's the same as the situation where the Spackle found Ben dead but could still hear him and were able to bring him back. (hide spoiler)]

While I think I know what you mean by the half-finished sentences, I have to admit that I didn't notice an increase in their use towards the end, at least not in a way that impacted my reading experience. I liked these in some ways- I feel like they gave us an idea of what Noise would be like and a feel for some of the characters' unfiltered thoughts. But I can also understand why they bothered you in practice. Three books was plenty for me to read in that style.

You could be right that (view spoiler)[the Mayor admits to killing the women in the end and I just somehow missed that. I agree that it is frustrating that there is never any explanation for why women have no Noise. There is the sense with Viola at the very end that she could potentially learn how to develop Noise, but that still doesn't explain why they don't naturally. And yeah, some idea of why Noise impacted the Mayor more than others and why he could wield it so effectively would have been nice. I got the feeling like he realized its potential as a means of controlling others or as a weapon when no one else did and then practiced and practiced and honed his skills. After all, it seems like the whole time Todd was growing up, the Mayor was busy teaching himself (and his Captains a little bit of) these techniques. But that is by no means a complete explanation. (hide spoiler)]

I haven't read nearly as much sci-fi as you, but from what I have read it's a fine balance for me between too much technical information that I don't need as a non-scientist and too little explanation. Given you're an engineer, you probably lean towards wanting more technical information than I do. That few authors tend to successfully navigate that line for me might be one reason why I like fantasy better. For another thing, I expect sci-fi explanations to fit a little better with reality than fantasy ones- fantasy ones just have to be internally consistent.

I think moods always impact our feelings towards books to some degree. The right book at the right time can result in a 4 or 5 rating when it might have otherwise just gotten a 3 from me, so I'm sure the opposite can be true as well. I'm sorry that you didn't end up enjoying this one!

Do we know why when (view spoiler)[Ben and Todd died, they kind of float between the worlds and become one with the Noise? Is this something that happens to everyone? If not, why Ben and Todd? It's not like Todd was the best friend of the Land/the Spackle. It's ironic to me, because I am imagining the Mayor deciding to drown himself to completely turn off the Noise and escape it, only to find himself stuck in this terrible in between where all it seems to be is awareness of the Noise. I guess maybe that's karma, if that happens to him as well (hide spoiler)]. Just a thought that came from what you said about the Mayor and his Noise =)

Yeah, I think my background kind of ruins a lot of sci-fi movies and books for me, since I have that schooling in science and engineering. It can really bug the crap out of me (so much so that there are certain movies my husband refuses to ever watch with me again). I always want more info, I think because I'm always trying to learn more and as an aspiring writer, I think to go through what other people have come up with for the future of technology/science to see what I think is possible as a futurist. I agree I tend to lean more towards fantasy, especially in the young adult genre, exactly for the same reason as you.

No, we don't know why (view spoiler)[Ben and Todd floated within the Noise when they died.
Here's something the (original) Sky said about Ben: "A soldier, the Sky shows. Found by the side of the road, dead from his wounds, we thought. But then came his voice, unguarded and open at the very, very edge of silence. We stopped it from disappearing completely."
My thought would be it maybe happens to everyone briefly while they're dying, but most people quickly leave/fade.
Now something the Mayor says about Ben at the end: "He hears the voice of the planet, too, Todd, just like me. Just like you will eventually. But he lives within it, lets himself be part of it, lets himself ride the current of it without losing himself.”
Do you remember how after the Mayor dies, right before Todd is shot, Todd opens his Noise up completely to Viola? My theory is that this is what maybe saves him. I think the Mayor wouldn't be stuck in limbo because a)he had reason to fight to hold on to life, to stay in the Noise- no one to try to return to like Ben had Todd and Todd had Viola- and b)the Mayor tried to control the Noise to the end and was in no way "unguarded and open" within it or willing to "let himself be part of it". I think those two reasons (although it's just my theory) are why Ben and Todd didn't fully die. Doesn't answer everything, but some.
It would be very ironic and a fitting end for the Mayor for him to be stuck in the Noise, though. :) (hide spoiler)]

Makes total sense. In my head though I like to speculate the possibility of that happening to the Mayor... except he gets stuck there in limbo forever 0=)

I'm sorry I've been gone for so long, my summer started and my sister hasn't let me have a moment to myself since then. She always wants to move and go places, leaving me exhausted by the end of the day. I will be able to give my thoughts again (finally) in a couple of days or sooner.

It's been hard to motivate myself to pick up the book again. I always have that issue once I sit a book down, no matter how exciting it is.

That's ok, Ivy. I'm just glad that you have been enjoying your summer and your sister! I'll look forward to your thoughts when you get a chance :)
Elise and I ended up having rather differing reactions to the book, as you can see from our ratings. So it will be interesting to see what you think- it does have a rather explosive last 25%, I would say, although it wasn't the easiest to get to that point.