Shakespeare Fans discussion

I am planning on reading this play starting May 20th. I am hoping someone else or a group would be interested.

I haven't read this play for a really long time...

I've been taking several dance classes for the last two months. I take two tap dance classes a week...and our instructed, a master tap dancer Reggio, used the term "mother-wit" last week. I had never heard it before...or never remembered hearing it before. I was amazed by the term. Of course O got on my phone later and looked it up. And one claim is it's in Taming of the Shrew. One of Kate's lines....so I thought it's time to dig out this play.

Maybe, if a few others also are interested. Post a reminder closer to May 20th, with a proposed reading schedule (all at once, one act every so many days, etc.)

Yes I will...I'll send put a group message too

Hello...

Well I sent out a group event notice and have had a few positive responses to this play as a discussion.

I'm so excited!

I also posted a guideline for those of us who hope to read some acts by the week...working our way through the play...but there is no hard rule about doing so. I personally find I like to focus on an act by act basis.

so....I look forward to hearing from anyone interested on this play...

Cheers!

Okay I'm in. Lets see what'll come of it n

I'll try.

I'm going to give it a go :)

YAY!!!!

If anyone needs an online source to read this play...here is one:

http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/...

I have it in this version from BBC http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081597/ with Cleese as Petrucio. :-)

Check to see whether your library has the Arkangel CD recordings of Shakespeare. I find it very beneficial to listen to the play as I read; the combination of aural and visual input helps me get a fuller sense of the play.

I prefer the Arkangel readings to any of the video versions because I don't have to argue with the way the actors are representing the characters, and Arkangel gives you the complete play without any cuts.

And, of course, there's none of this nonsense about modern dress or putting a production in the Wild West (yes, that was done locally a few years ago) or any other weirdnesses that came to some director in a nightmare or that sounded good when he was bombed out of his mind (can't say "he or she" since I've never known a woman director to get bombed out of her mind, but I've known more than one male who did, and came up with some bizarre ideas about how to read the play).

Uh-oh -- hi, Candy -- I joined up. I pulled my cheapo set of Shakespeare off the shelf. And I also ordered a DVD of the 1953 musical Kiss Me Kate -- I can't help it -- that connection was made so long ago and it stuck -- haven't seen it for decades and won't watch it till I've finished reading. Also recall several TV productins at various times over the years -- but ah well. I may just lurk and not comment -- but then again, you know me -- I might get wound up and talk, too.

Hello Everyone and Candy, thanks for invitation and will be - to use a wonderful old word - a 'laggardly' participating member of the discussion. Would do a lot more, but prosaic reality not allowing me this summer...

Here is an online translation from Sparknotes which I sometimes find helpful.

I really like the Elizabeth Taylor/Richard Burton version of the movie.

Hello! Great to see so many voices here...I am so excited.

I started reading the first act this morning. I am surprised how absolutely zero I remember about this play.

I completely forgot that within seconds we are introduced to the prank and premise of "identity loss" or an "identity switch"...I believe such genres as identity mistakes or switches might be my favorite device in literature PERIOD.

I just love it.

Dottie...it's like old times seeing you here. I will also watch Kiss Me Kate...but not till July.

Lucinda...any time you have with us is a treat. Laggard away!

Everyman, what a good idea to listen to a recording while reading. I shall try to locate such an audio...meanwhile I'm jumping into the play.

Thanks for the link Caallas...I will check it out.

Henrik, the dvd looks like a lot of fun. Again...I will check out film versions after this reading. It feels so fresh to me the pace of the dialogue...I want to keep it in my mind first before seeing adaptations etc.

Perhaps this is the painting of Adonis...mentioned to the drunk by one of the servants?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ven...

"Dost thou love pictures? We will fetch thee
straight
Adonis painted by a running brook, 195
And Cytherea all in sedges hid,
Which seem to move and wanton with her breath
Even as the waving sedges play wi' th' wind."

Diana/Daphene:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ant...

" Or Daphne roaming through a thorny wood,
Scratching her legs, that one shall swear she bleeds
And at that sight shall sad Apollo weep,
So workmanly the blood and tears are drawn. "

Or Io?

"We'll show thee Io as she was a maid
And how she was beguiled and surpris'd, 200
As lively painted as the deed was done."

I wonder if these paintings may be foreshadowing? Some of the content of the paintings suggests transformations.

also...I am wondering what kind of a game is this? Why does a lord want to play such a prank? I wondered if maybe it's a creative/artistic thing for the Lord...like a painter or artist controlling the audience/viewer?

Sorry, Forgot the link to the Sparknotes text.

http://nfs.sparknotes.com/shrew/

Candy wrote: "Hello...

Well I sent out a group event notice and have had a few positive responses to this play as a discussion.

I'm so excited!

I also posted a guideline for those of us who hope to read some ..."

Where is this guideline of which you speak? I'm sorry -- I'll find my way around eventually but in a quick glance don't see anything that leaps out as fitting that description.

On the opening page of this group. You actually have to click "more" to read it all...

Reading Suggestion?

May 21-May 29 to read:

ActI

Scene 1. Padua. A public place
Scene 2. Padua. Before HORTENSIO’S house

May 30-June7 to read:

Act II

Scene 1. Padua. BAPTISTA’S house

Act III

Scene 1. Padua. BAPTISTA’S house
Scene 2. Padua. Before BAPTISTA’S house

June 8-16 to read:

Act IV

Scene 1. PETRUCHIO’S country house
Scene 2. Padua. Before BAPTISTA’S house
Scene 3. PETRUCHIO’S house

June 17-June 24 to read:

Scene 4. Padua. Before BAPTISTA’S house
Scene 5. A public road

June 24-30 to read:

Act V

Scene 1. Padua. Before LUCENTIO’S house
Scene 2. LUCENTIO’S house

Candy: Hope this doesn't spoil anything, but the mother-wit line you seek is in Iii line 262-66, when Kate and Petruccio first meet--love it!!

K: Where did you study all this goodly speech?
P: It is extempore, from my mother-wit.
K: A witty mother! witless else her son.
P: Am I not wise?
K: Yes, keep you warm.

That last line, I used to tell my students, is an insult, as if you can't tell--kinda like the Elizabethan equivalent of "Smart enough to come in out of the cold."

This is the first year in 20 I haven't taught Shakespeare, and I so miss it!!!

Thanks Tracy! I had looked at these lines when I first heard the term a few weeks ago.

Of course I have read them out-of-context and it will be fun when I get to know these characters.

This is quite a surreal play...a play within a play, I see now...

Thanks, Candy! I didn't even think to look there, of course but as I said I will catch on to the workings here in a bit. Hopefully.

My first interest so far is that it's not just that there is a play within a play. There is actually a play within a play within a play. The first play is to suspend the disbelief of SLY. He is a tinker who is often in debt and drunk...now the LORD has created a play about him being a Lord himself. All the people around him are playing parts. I was laughing out loud at the boy servant dressed as a woman when Sly asks him to come to bed...and he has the excuse that the doctor says they should not sleep in the same bed, or at least until it is dark.

And then we have this group of a
"actors" about to watch another play.

So I am hoping to explore somewhere down further in reading, 1)why does the first Lord want to play this prank? 2) Is a drunk tinker a metaphor (for consciousness in the dark?) 3) Is there some element of free will being played out by the rich Lord on the tinker? 4) why use two plays?

Just some quick questions that entered my head as I began reading in Act 1 Scene 1....

I've ordered a copy from the library; it'll take a few days to arrive.
It's ages since I've read it. I saw the film that someone mentioned with Richard Burton and Elizabth Taylor in my teens in my pre-feminist days. I remember I thought the acting good. I remember being pretty appalled at the speech at the end when I first read it, and the tamed Kate's throwing off her bonnet or whatever it was which The Boss said he didn't like - but of course,we must discuss that in the correct place.

The very start, the Induction, made me immediately think of A Midsummer's Night's Dream and the play within a play but it's true as you point out, this is three plays intertwined. That alone pulled me right into it though the next few days are busy with visiting plans and I may mot get to read as much as I wish. Going to have fun wtih this I know.

The intro characters don't come back again, although I have seen performances where they keep Christopher Sly watching outside the main action with his "wife" for comic relief. The play is pretty farcical; and it will be interesting to see everyone's "feminista" reaction to the final speech--I always personally liked how the Taylor/Burton version made it about love, yet implied she wasn't really going to be all that submissive by her actions.

Wonderful to see so many folks here!

I do think this is going to be a lot of fun...I feel like a little kid opening gifts...

And...anyone popping by worried about "being behind" on reading...I really hope we can all allow for life getting in the way. The joy of online discussions is we can show up at our own pace and personal schedules.

Just pop in whenever...Dottie...you'll sneak in some time I am sure!

We really don't hear much from the sisters as we meet them. I like how Katerina seems so feisty...do we know why she is a shrew? I imagine if her sister is always popular that may be a reason?

I've come to the part where we meet Petruchio...and the plot is coming clearer.

I really like how Petruchio speaks. First, I think it's hilarious that he has such a silly servant. I suppose a fancy man with a small inheritance can only afford a goofy confused servant? Or this may also show us something about huis character...he deems somewhat easy-going ...??

And then we find out who he is with this dialogue...

HORTENSIO. Petruchio, patience; I am Grumio's pledge;
Why, this's a heavy chance 'twixt him and you, 595

Your ancient, trusty, pleasant servant Grumio.
And tell me now, sweet friend, what happy gale
Blows you to Padua here from old Verona?

PETRUCHIO. Such wind as scatters young men through the world
To seek their fortunes farther than at home, 600

Where small experience grows. But in a few,
Signior Hortensio, thus it stands with me:
Antonio, my father, is deceas'd,
And I have thrust myself into this maze,
Haply to wive and thrive as best I may; 605

Crowns in my purse I have, and goods at home,
And so am come abroad to see the world.

HORTENSIO. Petruchio, shall I then come roundly to thee
And wish thee to a shrewd ill-favour'd wife?
Thou'dst thank me but a little for my counsel, 610

And yet I'll promise thee she shall be rich,
And very rich; but th'art too much my friend,
And I'll not wish thee to her.

PETRUCHIO. Signior Hortensio, 'twixt such friends as we
Few words suffice; and therefore, if thou know 615

One rich enough to be Petruchio's wife,
As wealth is burden of my wooing dance,
Be she as foul as was Florentius' love,
As old as Sibyl, and as curst and shrewd
As Socrates' Xanthippe or a worse- 620

She moves me not, or not removes, at least,
Affection's edge in me, were she as rough
As are the swelling Adriatic seas.
I come to wive it wealthily in Padua;
If wealthily, then happily in Padua.

I find him to be sort of light hearted. He is funny and also seems to have such a funny attitude about a wife. It's the "right thing to do" and he's willing to have any wife even if his friend says she's cranky...as long as she has money. In a quick manner we see who he is...

Sounds fairly normal to me, lol

Ah... I am seeing a little hint of nature as something we ignore or command. We dismiss it in order to be civilized or peaceful? I think Petruchio may also understand that things change over time. He can handle wildness.

Woman as animal and wild thing...when asked if Katerina's terrible scolding and attitude would bother him...he says...

PETRUCHIO: "Why came I hither but to that intent?
Think you a little din can daunt mine ears?
Have I not in my time heard lions roar? 750
Have I not heard the sea, puff'd up with winds,
Rage like an angry boar chafed with sweat?
Have I not heard great ordnance in the field,
And heaven's artillery thunder in the skies?
Have I not in a pitched battle heard 755
Loud 'larums, neighing steeds, and trumpets' clang?
And do you tell me of a woman's tongue,
That gives not half so great a blow to hear
As will a chestnut in a farmer's fire?
Tush! tush! fear boys with bugs."

Fear boys with bugs, indeed. Petruchio was the rock-star character of Shakespeare's menagerie. He is wild, drunken, a bad boy extraordinaire--I like how Burton gave him a gold pirate earring. He fears no shrewish women because he pretty much fears nothing--he's quite a bit manic and mad, with a huge ego and vocabulary to match--so much fun. And make no mistake, he needs the money. I always got the impression he blew through his inheritance and his home is a bit of a frat house, all male.

Also, I think there is a sort of undertone that is quite sexual in the Petruchio/Kate relationship. He wants the "shrew" because he imagines she is, unlike most "goodly" Elizabethan women, full of passion and fire which will add an interesting element to their relationship. Not to mention the money. I don't think it's an accident that all the other males in the story are a bit namby-pamby and precious. Petruch is a man's man, and for the right woman, a woman's man;)

I'm looking forward to see how it feels when Katerina and Petruchio first meet. I can't tell that is a bad boy or drunk...at least not yet.

I'm way behind you Tracy...I'm only reading up to Act 1, Scene 2 this week.

Candy wrote: "I'm looking forward to see how it feels when Katerina and Petruchio first meet. I can't tell that is a bad boy or drunk...at least not yet.

I'm way behind you Tracy...I'm only reading up to Act 1..."

Sorry--I'm worried about commenting and making spoilers--They meet in Act II. It's a fantastic scene.

I'm sure I'm the only person who hasn't read this in years...I'm not familiar with Taylor/Burton or Katherine hepburn movies either. I suppose though since this falls under the folklore story of "shrew taming" it is a little like "The Philadelephia Story".

I'm just sorry not to be able to understand your posts yet Tracy. When I'm finished I will come back and read them.

You know what I DO remember about this play from reading it...in high school maybe? I remember the MOONLIGHTING version...

Here is a musical excerpt, which doesn't have any plot spoilers...it's completely silly and out-of-context

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRaqV...

did you know that this is a story from a genre?

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0900.html

and here: it folk tale "type 901"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Thr...

Candy wrote: "I'm sure I'm the only person who hasn't read this in years...I'm not familiar with Taylor/Burton or Katherine hepburn movies either. I suppose though since this falls under the folklore story of "s..."

Candy wrote: "I'm sure I'm the only person who hasn't read this in years...I'm not familiar with Taylor/Burton or Katherine hepburn movies either. I suppose though since this falls under the folklore story of "s..."

I remember seeing the Burton - Taylor film years ago, soon after it came out I think, in 1967. So after more than 40 years I have a jist of the story and what it's about. I do not remember anything that happens in the first scene and after reading it yesterday I was perplexed. I did wonder if I was reading the right play. Not the jist that I remembered.

Candy wrote: "So I am hoping to explore somewhere down further in reading, 1)why does the first Lord want to play this prank?"

My sense is that the aristocracy of the time, not having any work to do, nor any TV or Internet to entertain them, were often bored, and would think up elaborate schemes to entertain themselves. We see something like this in Mansfield Park, for one example, where they get up an elaborate play with costumes, a special stage built inside the house, and all, just to entertain themselves.

Candy - are you going to set up separate threads for each week's discussion, or will it all happen in this thread?

Everyman, I think this thread will do. It's worked out okay in the past.

Are you and anyone else okay with just one thread?

James, this is something I find so interesting over and over when I read Shakespeare...(it happens for me with Hitchcock too) is I see things differently each read. Not themes...but allusions, structures.

I feel like I am now at tune with the way this play reads...but for the first hour or so of reading...I found myself quite surprised. It feels different. Even though, as Dottie points out there is a similar structure to "Mdisummers Night Dream" with play-within-play (and Hamlet) this just felt like a whole new animal to me.

I have many thoughts about the usage of this set up with the drunk guy SLY, then the play proceeding.

One feeling is the SLY the drunk tinker could be a little like the audience...1) we ar who we are. "Drunk" is almost like our self-awareness is ignorant of itself. It's as if being a lord or being a tinker is so utterly interchangeable...and self-knowledge is something that could be tricked or altered within a breath. I love this notion.

Yes, I do remember that in the Renaissance rich people often played pranks on each other...that is true.

Suzanne is also reading along...where are you Suzanne? You said something interesting about the beginning reminding you of "48 Hours"...how true.

I think the rich Lord could also be a metaphor for an artist...for Fortune. We could easily be born a tinker or a Lord. And artists and writers create new characters and actors adopt new personalities.

Theres something lovely and very creative for me going on with this structure.

I love that speech of Petruchio's about why he doesn't fear Katherine's tongue:

Gremio. O Sir, such a life with such a wife were strange!
But if you have a stomach, to't a God's name;
You shall have me assisting you in all.
But will you woo this wild-cat?

Petruchio. Will I live?

Grumio. Will he woo her? Ay, or I'll hang her.

Petruchio. Why came I hither but to that intent?
Think you a little din can daunt mine ears?
Have I not in my time heard lions roar?
Have I not heard the sea, puff'd up with winds,
Rage like an angry boar chafed with sweat?
Have I not heard great ordnance in the field,
And heaven's artillery thunder in the skies?
Have I not in a pitched battle heard
Loud 'larums, neighing steeds, and trumpets' clang?
And do you tell me of a woman's tongue,
That gives not half so great a blow to hear
As will a chestnut in a farmer's fire?
Tush! tush! fear boys with bugs.

Yes me too Everyman,

There is something very refreshing about hearing someone put someones else's complaining into perspective. His troubles are much bigger than petty nagging. And he sees the woman much like any thing or even in nature...it's not personal.

"Think you a little din can daunt mine ears?"

In contrast to how people complain on social media about this or that...or get personally offended by other peoples complaints or opinions...this is refreshing.

I'm reading an introduction from Spark Notes and also from Cliff Notes - http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature...

For me, the hardest part of getting into a Shakespeare play, is knowing who the characters are.

Oh I agree...and of course a play like this where the characters are pretending to be someone else. Eek.

The page is a girl, I get that...

But I am so confused about who is after the little sister. I feel like I've counted four guys after her? And then two of them have traded identities?

Two men are pretending to be teachers. Lucentio and Hortensio.

I think lol

And Lucentio gets his friend to pretend he is Lucretio so he isn't missed in court.

Hortensio and Lucentio met by chance...they each have a friend.

Petruchio is the fellow who wants to marry a rich woman even if she's cranky and complaining. Hortentio asks this Petruchio to help him sneak ingot he palace as a etcher.

Now this interests me because the :Lucencio and Petruchio have odds even thought they want a sister...because I assume Petruchio will support Hortensio...and will...

oh god it's like an episode of The Bachellorrette...I can't see how this will be good...but potentially funny

There are 3 suitors for Bianca: only one is appropriate age and love interest-wise, and that's Lucentio (not Lucretio) . He is a wealthy student, come to Padua, which BTW, was a most famous university town in Shakespeare's day. I say he is suitable because he's supposed to be handsome and young, an appropriate age for Bianca, someone she would be attracted to. He and Tranio (his servant) have a lengthly conversation when they are first introduced about why he is in Padua, when his eye falls on the lovely Bianca.

This is where Tranio, the servant, steps in and sees a chance to improve his life for the short run. When you read their dialogue, it's interesting to watch who has the upper hand: Tranio, not his master, is directing the ideas and actions of the scene. It's one of those great reversals (who is master?) that Shakespeare has such a good eye for.

Shakespeare is great at giving potential throw-away characters like servants such depth of character they become alive. This play is full of that.

It's really Tranio's idea that he should become his master for awhile, but he as as cagey as Iago (from Othello) in making it seem like it was Lucentio's idea. !!! His payoff? Well, he gets to wear his master's clothes, eat his food, spend his money, drink his wine, go to university and live it up AND get feted as a rich potential future husband for the Minola's daughters.

So, although he's PRETENDING to be a suitor, he really isn't. Lucentio, his boss, gets to play pauper and spend real quality time with Bianca the only way a young man in the Italian Renaissance could--by being her tutor. Virginal wealthy girls were locked up as treasures, especially in Italy, and courtships were all moneychanging formalities with constant chaperoning. Hence, the plot. I suggest rereading Ii, lines 172-220 to read between the lines of the backwards Luc/Tranio relationship--it's fun.

I think the Induction wherein the Lord sets up the tinker as a Lord and the Page to be the wife is what threw me off at first and in watching the film (YES -- I wasn't going to do that until I finished but hubby got on my case to watch the DVD to be certain it was okay -- and it didn't take a LOT of arm-twisting, naturally, given I bought it for just this reading and viewing duet) -- that aspect of the play is pretty much missing and in my memory I cannot come up with any of it relative to other productions. Anyone else know if that portion is represented in other film versions? At any rate -- I checked the Scenes in the film as related to setting in the scenes in the play as you posted them -- it's on target -- a plus.

Hortensio and Gremio are most decidedly inappropriate love interests for Bianca, and not just because they are sexist with high expectations in a wife. Gremio is extremely old---I usually see him played in in the 70+ range--so he's your stock, commedia dell'arte figure of the pantaloon---a vain old man (in baggy youthful pants) ignoring his age and thinking he's hot stuff. Pure comic relief. Hortensio is --how shall I say?---a confirmed bachelor ----who really is not terribly interested in women romantically, but finally, at an age(maybe 35?) where he really needs to consider appearances, has decided to marry to keep up his status. Watch the wording in the "tutoring" rivalry in Act II--where Hortensio is told to go "tune his instrument". Bianca is a teenager, BTW.

Candy wrote: "The page is a girl, I get that..."

Well, actually a boy pretending to be a girl.