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Rivers
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Rivers, by Michael Farris Smith, Final Discussion May 2016
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Tom, "Big Daddy"
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rated it 5 stars
May 08, 2016 07:24PM
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Tom ~ I am not finished ! Don't leave me yet ! I am really anxious ! Like scary movie anxious ! HA! I need popcorn to nervously read and eat ! I need somebody near to ask questions about what to happen next ! HA ! Dawn
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Don't worry. I'm not finished yet either. I know some people read it months ago and wanted to give them some place to go talk about the spoilers.
Okay. I nominated Rivers three times and YIPPEEEE! Y'all have read it now too. I will confess that the blurb from publisher about the book did not enthuse me, but Michael was the moderator for a panel discussion at the Mississippi book festival last summer. I was impressed with his commentary and wit and his generosity to the other writers there. Picked up a copy right there and then and had him autograph it for my husband (who was stuck home with the kids). After we both read it, we could not stop talking about it.
We and our family and friends collectively lost a lot during the hurricane called Katrina, but the book was respectful of that particular storm while at the same time conveying the sense of doom we felt in the weeks before we were allowed to return home after the evacuation. He absolutely nailed it.
As for how much this character loved his wife and baby, the horse and dog with no name, and ultimately the two boys he could have left at the line in exchange for retrieving his fortune, there was no way you could not love him back. The excitement, the danger, and the unexpected freak-outs were nicely complemented by the sweet scenes of the anniversary trip to Venice.
This is one of my favorite books of all time.
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Not to ask for explanation, but let me ask other members....in the beginning Cohen goes out and fires one of only 2 bullets in the chamber. If I remember this correctly, did we ever know why he did this? I sometimes remember little things and wonder if I missed a bigger picture.
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I need to be careful as I'm still about 60 pages from being finished but I didn't have a good feeling about their fate either. I know what Michael said about them but I think he may have used their departure as a literary device to make the reader uncomfortable. There is nothing better than the unknown for getting folks out of their comfort zone.
Laura wrote: "Diane mentioned Nadine, Kris and the baby in the section for the author. As a reader, I felt something bad happened to them. It was all in my mind but I thought the worst. That exchange was so haph..."I was thinking positive thoughts for them. Nadine was such a strong woman that she would make sure the men took them to a medical facility since Kris was having labor pains. How many guys would want to have to deal with childbirth? I bet Kris got there in record time (for that time and place). It probably wouldn't be our idea of a good hospital since there were so many shortages, but hopefully there was some staff. Just a guess, Laura, since I'm not the one writing the sequel. I can't wait to see what ideas Michael comes up with. It will probably surprise all of us.
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https://michaelfarrissmith.com/
Laura wrote: "So next book is sequel? I missed that. Yay!!!"No. In the author Q &A (Message 18), he mentioned that he was thinking about using Kris and Nadine as characters again, no definite plans now.
I thought you wanted us to guess if they lived by your question, Laura, so I'm thinking positively.
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No. In the author Q &A (Message 18), he mentioned that he was thinking about using Kris and Nadine as characters again, no definite pla..."
Definitely, I wanted to see what others thought about that whole situation. It was totally an opinion thing.
Because that baby boy was delivered by Cohen and cuddled by him, too, I envisioned the new baby, his half-sibling, being born safely and the women forming sort of a nuclear family with the babies. I have a comment about Cohen as A somewhat biblical character, but since a couple if you are in here but have not finished I will hold off. Laura, he was short on ammunition and planned to go get some from Charlie at a later point.
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Why not just hide the spoilers? Still, this being the final thoughts forum, I'm in hear at my own risk anyway.
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I choose to think that Nadine, Kris and the baby are safe.
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Tom wrote: "His next book is not a sequel. He has good descriptions of the next two books on his website and I'm very much looking forward to reading them. I wonder if he needs anybody to read and review them ..."I would gladly read and review before his next release.
Tom wrote: "LeAnne wrote: "but since a couple if you are in here but have not finished I will hold off. ."Why not just hide the spoilers? Still, this being the final thoughts forum, I'm in hear at my own ris..."
We have to hide spoilers in the "final thoughts" section?
SPOILER AHEADI kept seeing shades of Bible stories in the book - not blatant, but reflecting old sagas. Joe, penitent in front of the broken shards of holy glass...Ava, taking a second glance at Aggie.. the Good Samaritan picking up the kids on the road. Noah (as Aggie saw himself) repopulating the earth with his descendants. And of course Cohen, like Moses, leading them from slavery at the hands of Aggie to the land of milk and honey - but dies before he can be part of that world. I'm not sure Charlie was washed away by the waters of the Red Sea crashing down that river bank, but there was a feel for it.
I winced at the ending (or near-ending) and initially wished Cohen had survived, but in thinking on it, the ending was perfect. Silly, but do you remember that scene in Braveheart where William Wallce (Mel Gibson) is about to be beheaded and he spies his deceased bride smiling, walking toward him and he feels happy? That is sort of how I felt about Cohen's end. What did y'all think??
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No, but if you were considering holding off for those who hadn't finished, using spoiler blockers is an option.
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Diane wrote: "LeAnne, the ending shocked me badly, because Cohen had gone through so much to get so far, and was such a good man, and could finally see another life in his future with Mariposa. I don' t know if ..."Yes, I read Cold Mountain ages ago and loved it! I agree on the ending there - because he had that young woman he loved so desperately waiting to start a life with him, the ending seemed like an unfair blow.
Remember when Kolya died in City of Thieves?? Ugh. But at least Lev had his non-cooking wife to turn to - that helped ease the pain some. I'd toss Cohen in a similar corner as Kolya - knowing there were others to go on helped, especially since you know that he would wish, above all things, for his baby boy to live.
I still keep seeing Braveheart's ending and thinking Rivers ended perfectly. Sigh.
I thought maybe Michael Farris might choose to use the ending of Rivers as an opening for a sequel.
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Tom! See why I was a-skeered to blow the ending for y'all? Have you gotten past it long enough to accept and embrace the ending? Diane and I both hated it initially, but later came to see it as perfect. Sigh.. :)
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Oh yes. While I didn't expect it, Cohen ended up where he belonged and I realized it even while I was reading it. (view spoiler)
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That stands to reason, seeing as it was the same situation in both books, (view spoiler)
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Darn it. When spoilers have been removed, one cannot click on the phrase and make them show up via iPhone or iPad. I do not know what either of you just said, but will look later tonight when I am on the desktop computer.
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I was even more upset with the ending of Cold Mountain because Inman had traveled so far to get back to Ada who he loved. But Cohen's real true love was his wife, and he really didn't have the same type of bond with Mariposa.
Tom wrote: "LeAnne wrote: "Tom! See why I was a-skeered to blow the ending for y'all? Have you gotten past it long enough to accept and embrace the ending? Diane and I both hated it initially, but later came t..."If you look carefully at Mariposa, three things pop out:
One, of course is her age..maybe 19 years old and accidentally separated from her family during the bus evacuation of New Orleans. Teenaged girls seemingly fall head over heels over _____ (insert Paul McCartney, David Cassidy, Justin Bieber, etc) whether they know these males or not.
Two, being a sexual slave to Aggie for over a year had to make her pine for some sort of knight on a white horse. She was ready to KILL Cohen in the beginning because, from what she learned from Aggie and Joe about men south of the line, if Cohen were to capture her while/after she tried to steal the Jeep, from her perspective ( a 19 year old sex slave) there's no telling what he would do.to her and no telling what Aggie would do to her & the others for failing. When she found his mementos, she realized Cohen was not that kind of man...so he became her white knight.
Three - she grew up with her grandmother telling fortunes for others and amongst a family who spun tales about the vieux carre citizens that lived there hundreds of years before. She has an enormous imagination and imports sagas into the lives of people she has never met. When she goes through his belongings and then sees the baby's room, his wife's clothers in the closet, she imagines who he is and falls in love with that image of him.
All in all, she is probably the most complex character in the story, but I was so taken with Cohen during my first reading of the book, I didn't give her much thought. Second time through? I really paid attention to her - he wove her character incredibly well! I asked him about her in the Q&A and loved his response.
LeAnne wrote: "Tom wrote: "LeAnne wrote: "Tom! See why I was a-skeered to blow the ending for y'all? Have you gotten past it long enough to accept and embrace the ending? Diane and I both hated it initially, but ..."Those are great observations about Mariposa, LeAnne. For a 19 year old, she was very strong. I would love to know what happens to her and her baby, and whether she finds her family. She seemed to have a strong connection to her family in the spirit world which gave the feeling that some spiritual entity would be looking out for her.
Diane wrote: "Wait, I can't ask him this because it's a spoiler. I'll ask it here and maybe he'll see it. I'm assuming that after you've lived with these characters for a while while writing, you grow to love th..."Yes, it's very hard, because I love them, too. But to put it simply, the further I went along, the more I realized that Cohen wasn't going to be anywhere else. His story was below the Line.
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I also wrote a review. The more I think about the book, the more I realize how well the book is put together and am giving it another star. I'm looking forward to Michael's next book.My review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Having just finished, I finally got a chance to read all your marvelous remarks. I was stunned by the ending, but truly think it was the only appropriate ending there could have been. If everything had been tied up with a bow in the end, it would have negated every important statement that had been made and reduced the significance of the book. The observances about the Biblical parallels is very insightful. I connected the Noah and Moses stories to this while reading, but the lesser references might not ever have occurred to me. One of the reasons I enjoy reading with a group! I think I need to re-read the book now and look for the subtle things that are overlooked in the first reading.
Don't anybody pummel me, but I hope Michael will not write a sequel. It is alright to leave Nadine and group to our imaginations. Sometimes the story is over and there are other stories to tell. Like GWTW, I don't want anyone to tell me whether Rhett and Scarlett ever see one another again. That story is perfect as it sits, and so is this one. How could he tell us about Nadine and not tell us about Mariposa...and I don't want to be told. This story is perfect, just as it stands. I want him to go out there and write all the other wonderful stories he is harboring.
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Well said.
Very fine novel. Good choice for this month, but another novel about the South being cursed. Southerners don’t seem to get an even break, but Hickam’s novel is a nice contrast.My thoughts begin with the epigraphs:
When neither sun nor stars appeared for many days and the storm continued raging, we finally gave up all hope of being saved. —Acts 27: 20
Solitude produces originality, bold and astonishing beauty, poetry. But solitude also produces perverseness, the disproportionate, the absurd and the forbidden. —Thomas Mann, Death in Venice
The epigraphs to Smith’s novel informs us from the beginning that we should not expect any kind of hope (the universe is eclipsed) that anyone will be “saved” and that Cohen will die (he is the Aschenbach parallel), but to not expect that his death will mean anything monumental, for his crisis is existential, not in any philosophical sense, but in a pragmatic one. The continuing deluge, seemingly caused by the human disregard and destruction of the Earth they inhabit, brings barbarism to the South where men plunder, rape, and murder for seemingly no other reason than they can.
What a way to set the tone and themes of the novel.
Throughout, the concept that solitude of these characters and the almost claustrophobic point of view produces perversity, disproportionality, absurdity, and the forbidden.
Spiritually lost at the beginning, Cohen is a man who lives in a home where there is no hope and no future. His reality is one of the past where he tries to hold on to the happy domestic world of Elisa and his unborn child through memory, especially his romantic vacation with Elisa and his deluded hope that he will finish the room for his child that no longer exists. Cohen essentially died when his wife and child died in an absurd accident.
His life is absurd.
Yet, he resurrects himself, becoming an avenging angel who strikes Aggie, the man who enjoys the power of his evil through his own self-justification and vitalizes himself through his his mock references to Milton’s Satan, dead, thus saving the boys and the women from a hell worse than the storms could have ever produced.
Cohen becomes heroic, but not in any religious or cultural sense, but an existential one, the kind of hero we herald today (the first responders of 9-11; today’s soldiers who fight insidious wars without the sense that they will know when they have defeated the “enemy,” but the hold the line; etc.). He is a man of wit and action, who regrets that he did not leave this wretched place when he could have, thinking of a possible future where his wife and child would still be alive. The only purpose he has is to survive, but he seems unsure he even desires that, for it is not until the two vagabonds use his good will (does any other major character possess good will from beginning to end? I don’t see one) against him and almost murder him.
Of course, he’s not perfect, for he does fall prey to the casino money and Mariposa (I know that some readers like the relationship, but I would rather it had not happened). His journey becomes one of “saving” others, and doesn’t seem to think much of what he desires. He does what he thinks he should do.
His death reflects the same absurdity as the life that most of the people below the line live. He dies simply because there are bullets flying around.
The best part of the novel is the relationship between Cohen and his wife, and his memories lift a rather dismal present to grand past. The love that he and his wife share is exquisite, and she really is one of the best readers of Ashchenbach when she does not find him the perverted monster that most readers do. Smith’s creation of this marriage is one of the best I’ve read.
When Cohen dies in Venice, as he should, the tone is rapturous. He dies a good death, and his wife becomes, for him, as endearing as a work of art: “The sun moved and their shadow had disappeared. The Venetian sunlight brushed the side of Elisa’s face, her arm, her leg. She seemed to him like something made of marble, her beauty perfectly sculpted and preserved.”
I like how Smith was able to end the novel on a quite high note, and, at times, I wish he would have ended it there. Yes, I know that other plot lines have to be wound up, but Cohen’s last thoughts are endearing.
Cohen and Elisa are grand creations, but the reason why I gave the novel a “4” is because the other characters exist in his shadow. The other character who could have caused Cohen more havoc and more interest, if he had lived, is Aggie. He has become his hero, Satan.
I was surprised when Cohen did kill Aggie in Part II, for I expected with the Christian analogues, that we were going to see a novel length battle between the two.
Joey wrote: "Very fine novel. Good choice for this month, but another novel about the South being cursed. Southerners don’t seem to get an even break, but Hickam’s novel is a nice contrast.My thoughts begin ..."
Love your thoughts here, Joey. I would only say that I was pleased that Smith killed Aggie and did not make him the relentless pursuer. That would have felt like a bad horror movie where the villain is believed to be dead but is always rising from the dead to give the hero one more go. I liked that the horrors here were myriad and everywhere and killing Aggie did not ease the dangers in any way, just changed the direction that they needed to look for them. Even the person who seemed to be a friend and savior became a threat. Satan is not one entity, he is everywhere.
Excellent insights, Joey. Initially, I expected a more protracted battle, if you will, between Cohen and Aggie, but the Good versus Evil plot line could have become clicheed. That danger came from multitudes of direction - a panther, the storm winds, childbirth, black marketeers, rising waters, a man he's known since childhood - not to mention a storage room packed with rats - kept me on edge and surprised throughout. As for finding the casino cache, I think it was merely a case of increasing the odds of his survival. I didnt see it as making him dishonorable.
Death in Venice seemed like beautiful foreshadowing to me too, but I love that in the Q&A, Smith humbly acts as if he stumbled into it.
I CANNOT BELIEVE HE DID NOT TELL YOU ABOUT THE PREQUEL HE WROTE !!! I am reading it right now . It is his life before Elisa and how he met her . It is called : In the beginning : The Prequel to the Story Before Rivers . I believe I stumbled upon it on Amazon when looking for other works by Michael ! It is about 8 chapters long ! So , if your interested in a touch more of Cohen and Elisa it is out there. I was torn at the end because Elisa was not that real to me . I know she was to Cohen but I could not even picture what she looked like . I pictured a sassy smart lucky girl that had the greatest guy in the world . But , how ? What was her allure . He was attracted physically. She liked to run . She liked to travel . So I am hoping this is going to give me more of a reason to like the fact that Cohen is gone . This kind of reminds me of the ending of David Joy's Where All Light Tends To Go . I did not want Jacob to die . It did not make since . All signs pointed to him beating the odds. But, somehow I knew it would not happen because I kept thinking of the title . At least with Jacob and his girlfriend I knew her and I knew they were committed . They met secretly , David gave intimate thoughts from Jacob to his readers about her to us the readers. Thoughts that were not just physical. Thoughts that he would give his life for hers kind of love. I saw that between Mariposa and Cohen but Elisa and Cohen were different . Maybe this is a part of the book that got left out that he wanted to add but they edited out. So an after thought was to publish this brief prequel to resolve some unanswered criticism the book may have received. Michael mentioned a change in publishers . Maybe there were editing disagreements . I know with my cousin Larry , it took about a million rewrites to get his first short stories ready and then he really wasn't happy . After a bit , he had more control , editors do what publishers say to sell things at first with new writers . That is why so many new writers are self publishing and actually doing ok before being picked up by a big publisher. That is just what I have been hearing . Little small publishers and indie bookstores are doing great and then booksellers visit the bookstores and see what is selling . Kind of strange but good . Well, I am reading and probably going to cry over Elisa and Cohen tonight . Goodreads !
Dawn
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Got the notification in my e-mail, LeAnne. Have my fingers crossed. If I don't win it, I will definitely buy it.
I requested it this morning. It sounds like another winner!
