CLOG - Comedy Literature Only Group discussion

FINAL UPDATE:

Now going by the title "Shelf Life: the book of better endings" this novel was published by Mirror World on July 17th 2019.

Shelf Life: The Book of Better Endings

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'The Other Book of the Dead' is my current work in progress.

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(UPDATE 1: The first draft is now complete - July 2017. I'm now revising this based on reader feedback, so if you'd like a draft copy, please let me know.)

(UPDATE 2: The revised draft is complete as of September 2017. I've changed the name to...

SHELF LIFE
The Book of Better Endings

Just waiting on some cover art now, and then it's on to the next stages.)

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I'm currently eleven (short) chapters into it. This brings it to the point where all but one of the main characters have been introduced, the scene has been set and the nature of the challenge is starting to become clear.

It's basically a light-hearted adventure that will eventually develop into a spoof of lots of different literary genre clichés. (I tackled epic fantasy in my last two books; now I'm shifting my sights.)

At this stage, I have all sorts of misgivings but I won't say what they are because I don't want to shape the direction of people's thinking. If you'd like to review it, please let me know in the thread below and I'll email you a copy.

I'm looking for any and all honest feedback - what you feel does and doesn't work, comments about the pace, structure, humour, character dynamics etc. - you know, all the usual things. I want this basic foundation to be as right as I can get it. Once I've done that, then because I already have a pretty good idea of how the plot will work, I should be able to make some half decent progress.

Thanks in advance.

Hello, Rob.

I like the spoof of lots of genre idea. As you know, I enjoyed your epic fantasy spoof in your last two.

I'd be happy to read it and give you feedback.

You're right to seek advice early, always a great idea. I probably should have done that earlier on 'Villainous Viscount'' where I'm now eighty per cent done.

Thanks Lucinda - much appreciated. I'll send it over to you.
R.

Yeah mate, flick me a copy at titanictales@yahoo.com.au
I'd love to have a read.

Cheers Andy. On its way.

Yeah Rob .... me too. (What's the best way of me being able to read on my i-pad? My laptop is in need of a damned good thrashing.)

Cee Tee wrote: "Yeah Rob .... me too. (What's the best way of me being able to read on my i-pad? My laptop is in need of a damned good thrashing.)"

A PDF, I guess? I'll send that over but please shout if you have any problems with it.

I'm available to critique but don't have a new manuscript right now. That should work for anyone except those who still have issues with overly controlling or invasive mothers.

Yes please Rob!

Yes please. Have you still got my email address from last time?

Thanks all. Andy, Will - I have sent you a copy each. Ann - thanks very much, too. I will gladly send you a copy if you can let me have your email. You can reach me at robgregsonwords at gmail .com.

However, I really don't want to be the only one asking for reviews. Anyone else: please do start some other review requests going. I have to repay all these favours somehow...

Push me a copy Rob.

James wrote: "Push me a copy Rob."

Thanks James. 'Tis done.

Review of TOBOTD.

The pace starts urgently, but does relax after the first few chapters, settling into a style that reminds me of Jasper FForde's 'Thursday' series. The overall impression is of commercial quality writing that deserves a wide audience.

Conceptually I like the story, and it's well worth completing. Good luck with tying in characters and concepts from the earlier chapters into the quest for the perpetrators. I can see a whole series of cameos parodying classic characters, all red herrings until the very last chapter.

I've sent Rob a detailed file with a few edits, all trivial.

Thanks James. I'll reply properly via email.

bung me a copy, I'd love to start reading it.

Andrew wrote: "bung me a copy, I'd love to start reading it."
I'll pop it over tomorrow morning. I'm not at my computer just now. Remind me, please: do I have your email address?

you could Facebook me a link or I could give you my email via there.

Rob, I've just gone through chapter one and found it extremely compelling. I initially thought she was in a parked car but when the 'red lights TOWARDS her' threw me I figured she was driving. this may just have been make menopause distraction in my part. I felt that the tension you built up with the opening of her shop warranted a more tremendous reaction to hearing a voice behind her...I thought perhaps she could have screamed and then tried to recover her calm....potentially this recovery would also make the subsequent pistol reveal a similar up and down adrenaline side for the reader. she would be shocked, settle a bit, he seems ok then pistol? I'll be reading more soon...like what I've seen.

Andrew wrote: "Rob, I've just gone through chapter one and found it extremely compelling. I initially thought she was in a parked car but when the 'red lights TOWARDS her' threw me I figured she was driving. this..."

Thanks Andrew. Will made a similar comment about the ambiguity of whether or not she was driving, so I have amended my latest version slightly. I wondered about how much to say about her mental reaction to hearing the guy's voice. Flinching or something like that would make her anxiety more obvious and maybe I should have her do that, but I also wanted to explore that idea of adopting a mask to hide an emotional state, as that's something I'll develop later on. I don't want to be too obvious in spelling out her feelings but there's also the risk that her ostensibly calm response might look like an unlikely under-reaction. One to think about, certainly. Thanks.

Many people in that situation just freeze, like rabbits in a headlight.

James wrote: "Many people in that situation just freeze, like rabbits in a headlight."

Interesting. Freezing for a moment might work very well. Let the reader interpret her thoughts without doing too much 'telling'... Thanks both.

I'm a bit on the slow side, Rob. I'm not a fast reader either. (Boom boom!)

I'm just at Chapter 5, but loving it. Can't say I found anything specific that requires tweaking much - although there was an occasion where the word 'quiet' appeared twice within two sentences, making it appear a bit cumbersome. (But I can't remember where it was. Sorry. A bit 'needle' and 'haystack,' I'm afraid. It's in the first three chapters though. ;)

Regards the comments above .... I think Finn's reaction to the personal injury consultant (love it) is perfect as is. She's pre-occupied and her initial response seems almost tiresome. Like "Ffs ..... what now?" kind of thing. It looks like there was not much time for any scream etc once the pistol appeared. And to me, even by that early stage, she came across to me as being quite a calm character, one who was probably one step ahead of the stranger. In thought at least. He was evidently far faster on the trigger.
But I know from personal experience what it's like to face down the barrel of a pistol. (It was during an armed Bank raid.) I didn't scream or freak out. Half my mind was counting the seconds the raiders were in the building and thinking "they'll want out within 30 seconds" and the other half just shut down. I could hear there were shouts directed at me, and staff screaming and lying on the floor, but it was all muffled and surreal and slow motion.

So I reckon Finn's reaction is about right.

The one little bit that slightly threw me was the opening line to Chapter 2. '.... catch the strobing lights of a vehicle that passed overhead.' In the previous chapter, the talk was of cars. Was this now a helicopter? I decided it was, but maybe whatever it was needs to be more apparent?

Will hush up now. Gotta get reading more and do some of my own writing before the lure of the beer.

Thanks CT. That's reassuring - if hearing about someone's personal experience of a hold up can be described that way.

The strobing lights thing was picked up by someone else. I was deliberately being a bit mysterious there, because it introduces the idea of hopping between different worlds and genres, but I think I fall between two stools. I'm hinting at a near future Sci fi setting but I'm also trying to imply that maybe Hitch was the killer. I probably need to be more obvious with the transition, making it clear that c2 is set in a Sci fi world. I need people to be thinking: wtf, we were in a 21st century bookshop a moment ago... What's going on? But I don't want people to think it's just inconsistency in the writing.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback - and to everyone else, of course.

It’s not immediately obvious that this is a comedy. It reads as a quite brilliant action thriller. I wonder if you started off trying to write a spoof but stumbled upon a story that was actually better than some of the stuff you are spoofing and just went with it? It can be difficult to parody something especially if you can do it so well. It reminds me of a poem I wrote as a part of a writing course that was an admission of not being able to write poetry. To which my tutor responded that I used the rules of poetry so well to argue my case of ineptitude that the poem essentially lost the argument against itself and collapsed into a heap of redundancy.

However, we seem to mirror each other. (As you’ve pointed out before we often strike upon the same themes and ideas, just be chance.) And, by chance, I got half way through writing a thriller some time ago that I wanted to write as a good thriller but one that would also make you laugh. I think such things are possible. I think you may be on your way to achieving that with The Other Book of the Dead.

I like the idea that the SWAT team that dragged Cathy Finn through the wall are over worked and badly managed. It would be though wouldn’t it? Middle Management exists everywhere.

A small change I would suggest is at the beginning of Chapter 4 it’s not clear that Hitch is the person going through the small door until the third paragraph. I would make that clear right away by just changing the sentence “It wasn't locked so it took only a moment to poke at the latch with his foot and push it quietly aside.” to “It wasn't locked so it took only a moment for Hitch to poke at the latch with his foot and push it quietly aside.”

By the time chapter 4 is done it is very clear that this is definitely a comedy. There are a few funny lines in the chapters preceding it (In this light and weather, his chances of spotting a carefully-concealed Watchman were about as lofty as a worm's bum. For example) but now there is a general air of humour that makes you chuckle. No clumsy jokes, just naturally funny.

I'm on chapter 5 now and I’ll read on soon and comment some more. How do you go about writing this sort of thing? Did you plot it or write an outline first? I’ve never done more that go in with a sense of what’s going to happen and then just wing it and hope for the best. But it seems like a lot of thought has gone into this.

I never got very far into Unreliable Histories because of the untimely death of my Kindle. I tried to read on my laptop and then my phone but prolonged reading on those devises are no good. This has urged me to replace the Kindle with haste so I can finally get back to reading your previous work.

Hi Andy.

To answer your question, this has taken a shed load of planning out. More so than has actually been fun. There is a lot of timing involved in the various reveals and deciding in what stories and genres to stage the various set pieces. There's also been a fair amount of research into the life of a real writer, whose life &work are sort of interwoven in this, especially in the later chapters. The good side of that is that I should be able to keep a much tighter control over the length and pace than I did in UH. The downside is that there's probably a bit less room for spontaneity.

I like your chapter 4 suggestion. Thanks, I'll use that in the next draft.

One of my major concerns with this whole premise - ie writing different chapters in styles to suit different genres - is that people will read just the first few pages and decide that it isn't really very funny at all. I've deliberately kept it very short but, even so, those first pages may be enough to deter people who are looking for a proper comedy. Worse, arguably, is the risk that people will like the spoofed overblown style of the introductory chapter and then be disappointed when the book turns out not to be that sort of thing at all. Lucinda had a similar problem. She writes in the Regency style so convincingly that people have bought her books without realising that they are clever parodies. Sometimes it can be better to be obvious...

Anyway, many thanks for your comments. I think I've probably imposed on everyone enough now, so we should move on to the next title in the review list. It sounds like it could be a good 'un.

Hi Rob,

I know I'm a bit behind everyone else .... but I've just finished what you sent and have to say I love it. The concept is one that makes the reader think, and seems to be rather topical from what I read in Chapter 10, i think it was. (No spoilers here!)

I think you have the mix between plot, concept and humour absolutely right. I appreciate what has been said before about readers maybe expecting one thing and finding something else, but I found the humour to be perfectly pitched. Intelligent, understated and dry humour - does it for me every time.

I offer nothing by way of possible edits - but do now feel rather inadequate in that my attempts at plot combining with humour look decidedly feeble.

I look forward to seeing the completed book on the shelves of Waterstones etc.

Nice one!

I am up to ch 9 and can only echo CT's sentiments.

It's really really good. I can only doff my cap at the plot and planning that this would take, and more importantly at the execution.

I was wondering where you were taking this early on, but as the reveals took place, you are kind of left with a smile like 'oh that's why they did that...'. It's very clever.

The potential that develops in ch 8, to use other writing styles and character traits is so exciting. I spent ages just exploring the opportunities in my head. Obviously by this point I know the reasons for the style of ch 1, and further the need for it, but I'm still not a huge fan of starting a book in a voice other than your own. I quite like the authentic rob voice.

The comedy/adventure balance is spot on. It's cant really go too comedy centric without causing the various traverses to seem too severe of a jump. The humour is still there, bubbling away in the language.

I won't carry on. I've sent rob some further thoughts. All in all, it was excellent, and please finish it.

Thanks, both of you. It's really appreciated.

That question of starting in a style not one's own: it's a tricky one and I have been thinking about it a lot. I began that way partly because it seemed like a good way of getting straight into a dramatic situation - danger and a smattering of action - and because it introduces a main character and explains where she's come from. It also provides the foundation for her ongoing motivation to get home. However, it does bother me that many (if not most) readers will judge it on the strength of the first pages they read. Those who don't know me (which, let's face it, is pretty much the entire planet) won't be prepared to indulge me in a few pages of purple prose in the expectation that things will change.

On the other hand... that chapter is important structurally and it needs to feel like a different narrative style. Maybe I need to find a way of keeping that difference in style but making the chapter itself just plain 'better'. Tricky.

Anyway, thanks for the comments, both of you. I'll keep at it and let you know how it goes.

Dear all - once again.

It's one year and one month since I first created this thread and asked for your thoughts on the early chapters of 'The Other Book of the Dead'. Today, I finished the first full draft.

I have sent it out by email to one or two of you who asked to see the whole thing whenever it was ready, but if anyone else wants to see a copy, please let me know.

As ever, honest feedback is what I'm hoping for. Anything to help me iron out inconsistencies, implausibilities, plot holes, dubious character development, iffy pacing, unrelatable personalities, outrageous historical liberties and the many other wrinkles that can sometimes spoil the reader's experience. This book might well have them all.

Thanks again.

Yes please if you don't mind my usual feedback!

Congrats on finishing it, by the way. That's no mean achievement.

Thanks Will. I'll be glad to. On its way very shortly...

Hi Rob,
I’ve started reading it. I’m afraid I’m not very fast and – due to a poor memory – I’m going to have to post comments chapter by chapter.
Always love reading your writing. It’s obvious you love your craft. And you've started with a ‘Knock knock’ routine! Love it.
I’ve only got a couple of comments to make:
1. I think the insertion of the Reed section might be quite disruptive. We don’t know who Reed is or what is mission is. I know that’s the point and his intentions are meant to be mysterious but I found this more frustrating than intriguing. Personally I think I’d stick with Finn.
2. The only other thing that bothered me was the advice given to Finn by the police detective that “she take herself far away for a while”. Fortunately I’ve never been in Finn’s position but I’d be a bit worried about the competence of an investigating detective who advised that I drop everything and hide.
That’s all. Great opener and laced with some really good humour. Back soon.

Thanks Mr Duke. Interesting points. It'll be useful to see what the others think. I'd never thought of dropping the first bit with Reed but you could be right; it might work better without. It does sort of suggest Reed is going to be a main character, which he isn't, so there's merit in deleting that scene from a structural standpoint. I wrote that bit a) to introduce the idea that the extraction process is complex and frenetic and b) to throw a curve ball by letting the readers infer Reed is going to kill her. But I can handle a) differently, and there's no real point to b) at all. If it's creating a sort of hiatus in the flow of things then it's probably doing more harm than good.
As for the 'run away' advice, I probably need a bit of informed advice. If Finn has witnessed a murder by organised criminals, what would actually happen? A long period of witness protection? Or budgets being what they are, would it be more likely that someone would occasionally drive past her flat in a police car? I could have Finn feel that the protection she's being offered is inadequate and therefore decide to take matters into her own hands.
Mr Court is often very well up on such things. Any thoughts, Jim?
Anyway, Corbs old buddy, thanks for this. Useful food for thought.

The Reed section is fine, I just wondered whether it's in the right position.

Chapter 2 – Another lovely chapter, Rob. Just a query about balance. Hitch takes half the chapter to get into the flat. Personally I’d aim at getting him in there within the first third of the chapter. And, because I’m a bit of a thicky I’d like the line “The Watch got wind of your last little adventure; this was the next safe house on the list” at the start of the chapter because it helps me to understand more about the setup.

Laters.

Hi all,

Up to chapter 8, and it's all pretty much excellent. I'm just starting to get into some new content. I'll email rob with all my thoughts,but just to add to the discussion points as raised.

I think i tend to agree with corbs re: the reed vignette. I like the actual scene, and it has some of my favorite lines such as the jerk one, but I think the opening may be better served by staying with Finn. It's hard for me to gauge the benefits re: explanation of extraction, as I've already read the book. But I think the actual extraction may be more shocking and thus effective to the reader without any forewarning.

As for the detective, I had no dramas with that. I didn't take it as actual advice so to speak, but more a recognition by the officer that with no leads it may be a prudent course of action. Kind of like a nodded suggestion from a veteran who has seen this before.

I didn't have any issues with ch 2. I pretty much enjoy all the time spent with Hitch, and the early part of the chapter served to display the everyday tedium required to live a pursued life. I also think it gave me a chance to connect with his sarcasm and personality, and anything that helps connect with a character is beneficial.

As for the rest, all good so far. I couldn't recall the space part, which seems odd given the pivotal nature of the incident. Is it new?

The reveal got me again ha. At the exact same point. Love that light bulb moment this book brings.

I'll carry on now, and send some thoughts as I go. Well done mate. Brilliant concept. Interested to see what new directions you've taken it since last time.

Corben wrote: "The Reed section is fine, I just wondered whether it's in the right position.

Chapter 2 – Another lovely chapter, Rob. Just a query about balance. Hitch takes half the chapter to get into the flat..."

Hi Corbs.
Thanks again. There is no other real opportunity to include this scene with Reed. Logically, it has to happen before Finn's extraction, and I don't want it to be the book's opening scene because it will add even more weight to the idea that Reed is going to be the protagonist.
I wanted that last line about 'reading the familiar passage again' to introduce the murder sequence, which is deliberately written in a different style. I was hoping it would present the idea that the following sequence is an extract from a different book. I'm assuming that readers will have seen the blurb, which will hint at the idea that this is a story about moving between stories, so this idea of Finn being a character from another narrative might already be in some people's minds.
However, none of this resolves the problem about the disruption. It is intended to fill the 24 hour gap between scenes but perhaps I should just delete it altogether and have a section break instead. (I might be over-thinking this bit.)

Andy wrote: "Hi all,

Up to chapter 8, and it's all pretty much excellent. I'm just starting to get into some new content. I'll email rob with all my thoughts,but just to add to the discussion points as raised...."

Hi Andy.

Thanks for this. It adds to the argument for dropping that first bit with Reed, and I know what you mean about there being more potential for surprise when the actual extraction takes place.

I quite liked the 'unexpected jerk' gag. If I drop this sequence, I might use that elsewhere.

The sci-fi scene was in there before - Reed's ambush happens the same way - but I expanded on it a bit because I think one or two CLOGgers said that they found the scene a bit confusing. I'd previously told something about his abduction through Finn's recollections in the waiting room, but I think this revised draft is simpler and clearer.

I'm glad you're enjoying it. I think you once mentioned that you'd like to see a Western scene. You might like to look out for that...

How about making Reed's involvement in the story really clear at the start of the inserted section? I think I slowed up because I was trying, and failing, to connect him to Finn and my tiny brain couldn't cope. My trouble is that if I try and park a bit of story in my memory for future reference I tend to forget the details. Whereas if I can make the connections I remember it much better. Could just be me though.

Chapter 3 - No probs with this at all. Moves along at pace and great dialogue. I did think they packed a lot into 30 seconds but I presume you timed it with your trusty Timex.

Corben wrote: "How about making Reed's involvement in the story really clear at the start of the inserted section?"

Sorry old fruit - I'm not following. (That's my tiny brain at work.) When you say 'at the start of the inserted section' do you mean somewhere other than where it is now? Or if not, are you suggesting that I just make his role more explicit - i.e. that he's readying himself to rescue her?

As for the timing question, yes, I did. It's tight, but it's doable. And it's only a very small bookshop...

"Or if not, are you suggesting that I just make his role more explicit - i.e. that he's readying himself to rescue her?" - That's it. That's the one.

Corben wrote: ""Or if not, are you suggesting that I just make his role more explicit - i.e. that he's readying himself to rescue her?" - That's it. That's the one."

Ah. Got it. Thanks.

Chapter 4 - Very nice chapter. No changes required as far as I’m concerned. The ‘kilo’ reference makes me think of drugs. Don’t know if that’s what you intended what with the ‘Famous 5’ characters.

Chapter 5 – Finn’s time with Cariola might be a bit lengthy. It’s all very amusing banter but it slows the story a tad at the start of the chapter. I was slightly surprised that she was so keen to go back to the place where she’d just been shot. Unless, of course, she’s worried about who’s going to feed her dog. Does she have a dog?
Love the ending to the chapter. It moves the story on very well. At this stage I'm starting to think that people are acting out the lives of characters in books which is nicely working on my imagination.

Hi Mr D.
Thanks for all this.
Yes, the kilo reference was a deliberately misleading hint at drugs. I just thought it would be funny to imagine Enid Blyton type kids selling class A drugs. Which, obviously, they don't.
It's a bit worrying if her concern for her family isn't coming across because her desire to get home is meant to be a key motivation. I'll look at that again. She has a goldfish, not a dog, but if you like, we can decide that she calls it Rover.

Hi Rob

Hope you finally managed to wash out all those annoying 80s earworms from last week. It was still a good week though, eh?

Apologies for not getting on with your book. This last week has been one filled with a combo of beer and puss - as you'll have seen from my Facebook page. Reading, and more so writing, couldn't have been further from my capabilities in either circumstance.
Feeling a bit better today for the first time, so will get back on the case this week.
Cheers.

Hi Colin. No, I've still got Tina Turner ringing round my head. I reckon I'll be clear of her by about October. Still a good week, though, yes.

Hey, don't worry about the book. You've definitely had a fair bit on recently, and I'm glad you're on the mend. And for the record - that was certainly one surreal sequence of Facebook posts. Memorable...

Hi Rob. Sorry about my tardiness. I was distracted. It happens quite easily. I’m through chapter 10. A most interesting premise and a story very well told. I really am not seeing too many issues. Just a couple of things to mention. First, Finn’s character. She’s not as interesting as Hitch. In my head she's a plain nerdy lady. The only thing that marks her out as potentially different is her determination to get back to her mum. Hitch, on the other hand, is a much more exciting character. I like him a lot more. That’s probably your intention.
I have a slight issue with Cariola. When she pops up the scenery is usually quite static – a meeting room or a café. I think she’s in the story to explain stuff. Or does she go on to play a different role later on? Perhaps, because I’m more of a movie guy than a book dude, I’ve got used to the set-up being revealed on the hoof, during the action. Do you think Cariola’s appearances might slow up the story? I’m keen for Finn to hitch up with Hitch so that she can reveal a deeper character. Maybe Hitch could do all the explaining … that would be fun.

Anyway, a great story with so much going on – satire, sci-fi, fantasy, comedy, thriller. Wow!

Spook!
I've only just started - Chapter 3 - so haven't come across the character Cariola yet. But what kinda freaks me is that when I first enlisted for this CLOG crusade, somebody mentioned (probably you, Rob) that since most of the members are on the same sort of weird wavelength, there are quite often some similarities in our writing styles.
Well - how about characters? I have a character about to make an official appearance (he was originally billed in my head as THE main character) called COROLIOUS.
Sort of similar.
Corilious. Cariola: takes me back to Latin conjugation lessons.
:-D

Thanks Colin. That is very odd.
In case you wondered where the name came from, Cariola is a character who's murdered in The Duchess of Malfi. (All the named characters are people who have died in other books.)

Hi Mr Dook.
Hmm. It's a big problem if the main character isn't coming across as engaging / interesting enough. Part of what I am trying to look at here is the idea of what it means / takes to be the protagonist. My first two books were about the power and responsibilities of a narrator, and this one is about being the protagonist of one's own story. The idea is that Finn has been used to playing second fiddle her whole life and she doesn't naturally see herself as a protagonist, but that role is increasingly pushed in front of her for her to take. That's the main arc for her, but maybe I need to make her initially a bit more interesting or I'll risk losing readers early on.
As for Cariola, she is meant to be a bit dull and matronly / fussy. She largely drops out soon after the bit you've read, but I might still edit down her sequences to speed things along.
As ever, thanks very much for all this.