The Shadow Rising discussion

Anyone else hate her as much as I do? Last night after I read the bit where Perrin tells her she can't go with him back to the Two Rivers, I took a good 15 minutes imagining how good the story would have been if that had been the last of her.

(Doing a reread, so I do know the entire story and the only time I could tolerate her presence is when she's there but doesn't say or do anything... and that's only TOLERATE.)

>_< GRRRR!!!!

I don't hate her THAT much, but she is pretty aggravating. But that's par for the course for a lot of the characters. There are all of these people from different cultures with very rigid expectations of how people should behave, and they all meet up and misunderstand each other's actions.

With a society as despicable as the Seanchan and a group like the White Cloaks in the story, it's hard for me to hate other characters all that much. But I will agree that Faile can be absolutely infuriating at times. She does get a lot better after FINALLY (view spoiler)[escaping the Shaido (hide spoiler)], though.

Brolie wrote: "Anyone else hate her as much as I do? Last night after I read the bit where Perrin tells her she can't go with him back to the Two Rivers, I took a good 15 minutes imagining how good the story woul..."

THANK YOUUUUUU!!!!! I just finished this book last night. Literally. This is what I said about Faile in my review:

Faile – Abusive, controlling, obsessive, and stubborn as anything, and NOT for the good. Apparently all Saldean women are like this, but I don’t care. Perrin is not allowed to do ANYTHING without her permission. He cannot be in another room without her. She is always – ALWAYS – there; clinging onto him, or close enough to reach out and touch. She. Does. Not. Leave. Him. Alone. Ever. Its like she completely wants to take charge of Perrin’s life. She treats him like a child, but its not funny. Not only that, she tricked Loial, and made him feel so bad all the way to the Two Rivers! HOW DARE SHE! She obviously loves Perrin, but I feel like he can do WAY better than her – Queen’s cousin or not.

I absolutely HATE Faile. I don't understand what is good about her at all. If Perrin does something that she doesn't like - she completely explodes, and he ends up apologising to her, and feeling bad about it. Talk about obsessive girlfriend! I could rant about her all day.

She is infuriating. One of the most annoying parts, I think, is when she doesnt allow Perrin to travel the Ways with her and Loial unless he 'asks' her, and he has to keep a certain distance back the entire way. I mean what is that? Talk about being a bully!

Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Simply despise the wretched creature! What did Fail (the 'e' is optional) ever do that Perrin would love her? Let's see...

-she latched onto him the instant they met, even though he never wanted her around.
-she throws a fit whenever she doesn't get her way.
-she talks down to Perrin like he's a complete idiot even when he's doing something she approves.
-she's (supposedly) pretty, although not as pretty as a lot of other characters surrounding Perrin.
-she flirts with Perrin and makes him uncomfortable.
-she tricked and took advantage of Loial.
-she plays the "girls are smart; boys are stupid" game with the maidens of the spear... as if they're all about 5 years old.

Oh... and before I forget...

-he's supposed to fall in love with her for plot reasons.

So that adds up to..... one reason. He's supposed to fall in love with her for plot reasons. Nothing about her should appeal to him. She's a really petty, horrible person. Their wedding was painful to read, and especially the aftermath of the battle later on. Would it be so bad if a Draghkar got her?

Chris wrote: "Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Simply despise the wretched creature! What did Fail (the 'e' is optional) ever do that Perrin would love her? Let's see...

-she latched onto him the instant th..."

THE 'E' IS OPTIONAL OMG YOU KILLED ME :'D I am crying!

Everything you said is 100% accurate! But where does it say he married her for plot reasons? Can you provide evidence?

Oh, I meant the plot of the series, not a hidden plot within the story. The author intended for them to get married, so Perrin fell in love and married her, even though he never had an in-world, in-character reason to, and she gave him every reason not to.

Yeah the only reason I could come up with is that Jordon had plot reasons... I loved Perrin up until Faile and it became my least favorite story line.

Without giving spoilers, Book 10 (I think that's the right one) was arduous to get through

Brolie wrote: "Yeah the only reason I could come up with is that Jordon had plot reasons... I loved Perrin up until Faile and it became my least favorite story line.

Without giving spoilers, Book 10 (I think th..."

Are you talking about Crossroads of Twilight, where nothing much happens? Yes, that is book 10. It's probably most people's least favorite volume. The Wikipedia summary is one paragraph, and it's mostly, "So-and-so keeps doing this. So-and-so does this some more. So-and-so talks to some people." Book 11 is good, though. Things start moving again.

OMG HAHAHAHA I just read the bit where Perrin and Faile meet up with Rand and Min and he thinks, 'Faile had very few faults, but she did have a slight tendency towards jealousy.'

Very few faults? FAILE IS A FAULT! Omg, Perrin, you are truly lost.... :'D

No, I HATE Nynaeve more then Faile. How could Lan even like her... Did Jordan just hate women to make them all so intolerable? If I was a maiden I would be killing all of them!!!

Kathryn wrote: "Did Jordan just hate women to make them all so intolerable?"

Actually, the intent was quite the opposite. While the various cultures in WoT do have very distinct gender roles, they are closer to egalitarian in their treatment of the sexes than most real-world cultures with strongly delineated gender roles. However, there is a slight power imbalance (that is much greater in places like Far Madding), and it definitely favors women.

One can certainly dispute how successful Jordan was in the creation of his slightly female-dominated society, but I would argue that most criticisms would more justly be aimed at things like impractical fashions for women being directly based on those from traditionally male dominated societies.

In terms of the women being insufferable in their attitudes towards men, it's really no different from the mountains of literature in which male characters assume female characters to be incapable because they're "just women," or something along those lines. Misogyny is often accepted as being a reasonable part of a fantasy society because we expect that such would be natural part of a society at the cultural and technological level described. Often we excuse such male characters for their behavior because that is what we expect of them, but readers are often less willing to do so for women because we aren't accustomed to seeing them in such roles.

Now, you may think, Why would Jordan make his women act like such pieces of crap, just because they're in positions of social power? The answer to that question is that he didn't--not any more than men act terribly when they're portrayed as being normal members of a male-dominated society. While the women of WoT do use their relative positions of power to be unfair to men in different ways than men in power are unfair to women, their behavior is not necessarily any better. Indeed, there is little reason to expect that it would be.

I agree, Perin could have done much, much better than Faile. She's a liar and he deserves much better. There should not be secrets and lies -like she keeps- between them. Not to mention, her appearance description is quite ugly.

deleted user wrote: "I agree, Perin could have done much, much better than Faile. She's a liar and he deserves much better. There should not be secrets and lies -like she keeps- between them. Not to mention, her appear..."

Ugh I hate Faile as much as the next girl but her appearance has nothing to do with it. It's her personality that's a pain, not how she looks.

I'm not going to lie, I didn't really enjoy any of the female characters in the Wheel of Time series. I don't think they were inherently bad characters, just that Robert Jordan didn't write them, or their dialogues, all that well.

Keep on reading most characters grow on you.

Faile is surprising in some ways, and I can't dislike her really...

I agree Faile is annoying when we first meet her and for most of the series, but she does grow on me a little as the series goes on. Don't know why, but I do not hate her, just not my favorite person. She has her moments of good like when coming back to save the two rivers in this book (Shadow Rising) and a few other moments later on. Still, not one of my favorite characters though.

I think she is a far more complex character than people grasp at first, there is a lot of expectation from her parents about behaving 'properly' and maybe they secretly want her to rebel?

She does have her moment of doing that of course, but then is swept up in events that are wildly beyond her control, and she can't understand enough about what's happening to have any stability.

Just to say 'she is a liar' is a huge simplification of her world view, which is to protect Perrin no matter what the cost to herself.

I like the fact that Jordan's characters are flawed just like real people - and they change over time and adapt to life's circumstances - sometimes well, sometimes poorly...

So, yeah, don't confuse 'interesting' with 'obnoxious' lol

If I have to be honest I never really liked Elayne.

She becomes one of the most politically powerful people in the world - I kind of feel that she deals with that fact quite well, but being the daughter of a queen in her own right is not a humble position.

She does get some lessons in humility as events unfold, but I don't think it would be realistic to portray as anything other than a future ruler of Andor, with the correct amount toughness that she needs to be the queen...

MeReedGood wrote: "If I have to be honest I never really liked Elayne."

Yeah, me neither. Never cared much for the political side of the books much in general.

All the more reasons for me not to like here. And out of the the rulers in the books I feel that she was the most incompetent. She was to stuck up, and I don't like how she dealt with Mat, and Perrin.

Lol..., I don't really hate her though. In a way she's an interesting character and all I see is a woman who loves her husband and is proud of him as well. Personally, i don't see much difference between Faile and any other woman in the series. Think about it for a second, Egwene, Elayne or Morgase, or even Faile's mother, they all had attributes enough to infuriate any reader at some points but that really never made them less human as Jordan wanted, I think. A character sometimes is a reflection of a writers believe and speculations and not just his imagination. So I believe Jordan was potraying a difficulty in women and how they see men which I see as true or not far from the truth. Women can be hard to understand and yet when a woman loves, let the world turn inside out and she never will be bothered.
Faile is a character that shows the possessive part of a woman an that can be as frustrating for any man as much as it is infuriating.

she is annoying but you can't really hate her until book 10... where I always like to say "Perrin is a big FAILE"