Reader's Paradise discussion

Heya!
I just thought this would be better for deciding stuff rather than the DMs !

Sure, no problem.

Do you want to start reading today/tomorrow?

Tomorrow is perfect!

Awesome, starting tomorrow then :) I've just remembered that I've read about this graphic novel on one of my lit courses back at the university, and since the topic is concerning the gruesome things that happened in my country, I'm really interested in that title

Whoa! Your from Poland? I mean there's the Poland map behind the book!
during school i.e while I was in 8th I made a project on tourism in Warsaw :p

I was born and live in Warsaw ;)

Hahaha I'd love to read that project :D

That's pretty naïve ... and I'll show that if I find it ...

And apparently I was interested about Warsaw and Poland because of Kane and Abel by Jeffrey Archer .. Abel Rosnowski .. the character .. he's polish ...

Yes I've heard that too, and that's the reason why I plan to read Cain and Abel by Archer - I'm curious

Sure thing! ....

I just started it!
20 pages done!

I finished the first chapter as well. So far, I really like it. The premonition of something happening in Vladek's story (Polish name is 'Władek' by the way, a short version of Władysław) and the way he speaks about meeting Anna (Polish diminutive is "Ania" btw, not "Anja" - "Anja is Russian), that it's not proper and it does not fit the story.

I believe the name for the whole collection "My father bleeds history" is very apt. If you live in a place that was destroyed by WWII (such as Warsaw) you can really feel that there are certain places that "bleed" history - it's there in the old building walls, memorials, and it can be very overwhelming.

Thanks for choosing this one! I will definitely reach our agreed 50 pages today.

Hey again. So I'm done for today with Maus - I've read a few more pages though (I wanted to finish chapter 3... hate to leave reading in the middle), hope it's okay with you!

I must say, that although the storytelling feels genuine, I really don't like the fact that Poles are presented as pigs, who supposedly had it so much better during WWII. I know that I'm speaking from my very subjective point of view but my great grandmother received a medal for rescuing Jewish children during war, my great grandfather was murdered in Aushwitz (he was Polish), there was a curfew for Poles as there was for Jews... I don't know why, but many people tend to believe that Poles did not suffer much because of Germans during WWII, and it's a blatant lie. I'm not saying that the suffering and pogrom that Jewish people faced because of Nazis is exaggerated (far from it!), nonetheless Poles suffered too, and a lot, and world seems to forget that...

Other than the representation of Poles, I enjoy Maus very much

I've finished until 41 ...

And yes it seriously is pretty interesting! And yes .. Wladek is the real name of Abel Rosnowski :p ...

And yes, what u said is true ... I mean as far as I did the project I did read about them .. ofc have never seen the buildings ... Warsaw is called the 'Phoenix city' right?

Karolina wrote: "Hey again. So I'm done for today with Maus - I've read a few more pages though (I wanted to finish chapter 3... hate to leave reading in the middle), hope it's okay with you!

I must say, that alth..."

Hahaha .. even I was about to finish the third chapter here :p ... no issues .. :v
I was thinking that the Poles who were represented as pigs were the ones who defected to the Germans .... So I was thinking that all the pigs were a symbol of the German /Nazi supporters and sort ...

That's really awesome ! I wish you could show that medal .. If it's okay with you .. and is supported by GR !

But I didn't understand one thing ... I don't mean anything wrong here ... But When Germany took control of Poland / invaded Poland ... Why was she given a medal? The Germans were against Jews right? Or is my history wrong?

All my history regarding the WWII is from novels only .. so I may be wrong ....

That's sad ... I really don't know what to say about your great grand-father .... I'm sorry about it ....

The only other fact I know about Poles ... was that they were shipped to concentration camps or war prisoners to work in mines and factories ...
Those pretty much would've been dark times ... I mean I can't really fathom what could've happened ... but just let imagination flow .. but still Unless we experience it we can never know the feelings ... The only thing I can feel about those times is unimaginable pain and suffering and loss during those times ....

And what does the name Vladek and Ania mean?

BTW .. isn't this book written by a Pole?
Why were his spellings wrong? I mean U said Ania / Anja in Russian ...

Plus did you observe that there were many Grammatical mistakes?
Do u think it's because he wanted to show the colloquial use of English or they are actual errors?

And when you spoke about pigs and these people .. are they rats or mice? Reminds me of Animal Farm by George Orwell! That's a pretty good book!

Hey, so ... to put things in order:

My Great Grandma was awarded the medal after the war (I think it was post-mortem if remember correctly).

Yeah that's the common misconception - that Poles supported the Nazi.

It's okay, it all happened a long time ago, though my Grandma never knew her father (she was born in 1940, and only 3 months old when Germans took him). But that's my point - there are many families in Poland up to this day, who can number terrible things that happened to their ancestors during WWII. Yes, the amount of terror that WWII brought to Central Europe is just unimaginable to us all these days.

So Vladek (Władysław) is a typically Polish (slavic) name, and it means "celebrated ruler", Anna comes from hebrew actually - it means - grace. I'm not so smart - I checked it, we don't stick to the meaning of names in Europe :) not much anyway.

No, the book is written by a descendant of Polish Jews, who was born in America (I think).

The spelling is wrong to simplify the reading for English speakers :) Imagine reading "Władek" instead of "Vladek" - it would be too hard to make out the letters - especially since "ł" appears only in Polish I guess (along with "ś", "ć" and other crazy and weird letters).

Yes, I think that the way Vladek speaks is a reflection of the fact that he wasn't born in America, so English, naturally, is a foreign language to him, at certain points grammar is very similar to Polish :) Considering how strong in metaphor is this story I don't believe it's an error on author's side.

Umm .. I actually didn't mean the poles supporting the Nazi .. I meant the Poles who were forced into supporting Nazi ...
I don't know how much u know about the Indian freedom struggle .. but here Indians were sometimes forced to join the royal Indian army that is the british extension of their army here ...
Indians were forced to fight in the war too ...

And the medal you meant posthumous?

I just checked about the author .. he was born in Sweden ... And his father is Vladek spiegelman ...

Oh, I see, what you mean. Same thing happened here - sometimes people where blackmailed/forced to work with Nazis that's true.

Yes, exactly.

Art Spiegelman was born in Stockholm but he grew up in USA, he is considered American cartoonist. Maus is actually his father's biography.

Btw ... are the Nazi's cats or dogs?

Coz if Jews are shown as mice ... it makes more sense that Nazis are cats right? coz well, cats run after/kill/hunt mice ...

And what exactly does Maus mean?

And yeah , to answer your question about Poles being shown as Pigs ... I found this interview of the Author....

He said he depicted Americans as dogs (haven't seen an American yet though in the book) who hunted the cats who hunted the mice!

He wasnted to show Poles as something outside the foodchain ... like pigs had nothing to do with dogs/cats/mice .. But why pigs only?
He said that it was because the Germans called Poles schwein .. which I googled and it meant pigs ...

He said it was metaphorical ...

And yeah that's what I found out ...

What do you think?
Oh and a good morning!

Hi there,

Yes, Germans are cats (although some don't look like cats at all to me).

I see the reasoning behind choosing pigs for Poles. It makes sense, plus there is more to this animal than the stereotypical image of it (maybe the author had that in mind as well).

And "Maus" means "mouse" in German.

I'm starting my portion of today's Maus soon!

Hi

I'm having a pretty bad internet connectivity right now ... I'm licky to bd typing this right now ...
Well I just finished todays part too! And I apparently read a bit extra and finished the first part of the book!

I really hated haskel .... And especially the part where anja's parents were taken away to the gas chamber ... Damn ... Thats chilling to the bone!
I liked miloch though until now ...

U know milochs brother Pesach ... In Hindi (the official language of India) it means evil spirit or ghosts ... Well apparently the character of Pesach was the same!...

Mala and vladeks fights seem natural ... And in a way funny too dont u think?

I didn't understand the part he said he always got into to compartment with the German officials coz they could find out if a jew got in the other compartment... I mean how can they not know ajew in their own coach but find out if there's a jew in the other coach?

It really was sad ... Disheartening when he destroyed anja's diaries!
What do u have to say about the book until now?

Hey,

I've finished the first part as well, I will have to probably speed up with the second part, as I'm leaving on Saturday morning for the whole weekend. Hope you don't mind if I finish Maus tomorrow.

From what I know there were a lot of people like Pesach and Haskel in times of war. By the way "kombinator" is a real Polish word to describe such people.

I wonder if there is any linguistic connection in regard to Pesach name. I presume it's Hebrew, but maybe somehow at certain point in time the word was carried on way or the other to one of the languages.

I don't like the fights between Mala and Vladek. I think that's one of the main problems of oldfashioned marriages - when people didn't marry for love and respect, it was hard to get along afterwards. I perceive Vladek's actions as very disrespectful towards Mala.

What Vladek meant, was that Poles in their tram compartment would always see that someone is not really a Pole, but a Jew and tell the Nazis. Nazis however felt safe and comfortable enough in their compartment so they wouldn't look for Jews, they would bother.

Yes, I was also very upset about the way Vladek treated Anna's journals. It was very disrespectful toward her and Artie as well. Sadly, Vladek seems to be this very stereotypical Jew (just as Artie says to Mala), and also a very egotistic person.

I really enjoy this reading. Despite lighter form, the story feels very genuine and stirs a lot of emotion.

Regarding the fights between mala and vladek .. well, it genuine .. she's married to vladek for money and vladek is a miser ... they shouldn't have married!
that's the mistake ...
I think now that you've read ahead ... you know what mala did ...
Coz, reading it is too damn fun ... and engrossing ... I was rregretting myself to hold back after fifty pages a day! and yes I have no issues ... I think even i'll try finishing it tomorrow!

Yes, I've read the first chapter of the second part. I totally agree that they shouldn't have married - but that was the case back then, that people who didn't love each other married for convenience.

Oh, by the way! How did you find the comic-inside-comic about Anja's suicide? It was very psychedelic, the drawings were very disturbing.

I have a never-ending buddy read with one of my GR friends and we never set a page limit :) It's a real struggle if the book grips you

that was real sad ... I closed the book .. took a deep breath ... walked a bit and then started it again ...
So intensely deep and sad !

Yeah same here too right? The book is awesome .. and pages are a hindrance ...
Chapter wise is better I guess for books :p . atleast wouldn't have to stop midway a chapter

I never stop in the middle of the chapter (unless they're very, very, VERY long - which happenes at times).

But that's true - it's a great graphic novel, I'm glad you picked it and shared with me :)

Hahaha ... I'm pretty happy reading this too!

I'm don't 200 btw! How about u?

I have one chapter left :) I got carried away while reading yesterday evening.

Read your comments.. Awesome guys..

@Kushal - I'm officially done with Maus. I really enjoyed how the second part focused more on Artie, his struggle as an artist and his relations with Vladek more than the first one. What touched me the most, I think, were real photos of Richieu and (view spoiler)[Vladek (hide spoiler)].

I really admire Art's attitude as the creator of Maus, that he did not write this story with any particular reason in mind. He's very humble in his success.

The words of Art's therapist are shockingly true in regard to Holocaust. That these days (at least in Europe) the sentiments are again very nationalistic as if, not so many years after WWII, people "wanted a new, larger Holocaust".

It was a great graphic novel, I really enjoyed reading it with you!

Okay ...
now I officially did complete the book and it was really awesome!
And thanks to you, that I read the book!

Yes the therapist seems wise ... I loved this part .. ending of page 205 ... Samuel beckett once said " every word is like an unnecessary stain on silence and nothingness" and on the other hand - He said it!
and the beginning of 206 ... I don't know why ... but this stuck to me like hell!

I really liked the way vladek was street smart ! it was really foolish to keep the stored cigarettes in the barrack .. when he knows people will always come up to make the bed!

I really liked Mancie .. I hoped that there'd have been some future with mancie to be honest ...

And I'd have to say he was lucky to be in the infirmary during when the order for pow exchange come up!

The train journey was just terrible! I wonder how they survived the stink too!
I really wonder how people were sane enough to not push vladek from his place for ice ... I mean hunger / desperation makes people insane right?

And each time they were caught by the patrol I had a mini heart attack .. I wonder if that's how I felt while reading a book written by a man who heard another older man tell the story in which he was slightly ill and may not have remembered everything properly would've felt during that time!

And yes, their family was lucky! they atleast have photos! I believe it costed a fortune to get a photograph those days!

Also .. why were the French shown as frog/toad? and swedes as stags? any idea?

And yes, Vladek really is racist and hasn't learnt much from the holocaust ... I'm talking about his discrimination between jews and blacks .. And what exactly does Schvartser mean? (This is apart from the topic were talking .. I'm not sure which language it is .. but what does papaoutai mean? I mean I heard this song by stromae ... and that's wwhy I was asking .. The song was awesome even though I understood nothing :p)

And the ending was bittersweet! He meets Anja/ ania .. but didn't it seem a bit too hushed? or ended it terribly fast? didn't let the emotions sink in? I felt it to be hurried like the letter in Yiddish .. seemed like the publishers wanted it out and he just ended it abruptly ...
but the last panel when his dad says Richieu .. I was dumbfounded!

He still misses him like hell ! I mean the stuff that mustve been going through his head !
Also imagine what Art would've felt!

Delirium definitely bring out the most true feelings out don't u think?
I really feel bad about Anja's death even more after that!

Over all its a pretty good read! and amazing read actually!

Oh and I run a blog and would like to review this one I was wondering if I pick up a few lines from what you said too? .. if it's okay with you .. :D

This is a Monthly BR thread not a long time BR so I am shifting it to the appropriate folder :)

@Kushal - no problem :) send me the link when it's up!

@Gehna - sure thing! :)

ah no issues @gehna ...

and @Karolina .. umm I had a few queries in the messages above the blog message ...

Kushal, sorry I didn't see them, I'm currently out of town with poor internet. I will address your queries tonight/early tomorrow. Is that Ok with you?

yup sure .. no worries :D