Rothfussians discussion

I have come to the conclusion that I believe the Yllish language is the language of written magic. There are several moments that contribute to this theory. Firstly, when Denna asks the boys how sympathy works, she asks if there is a type of language where one can write something and have it happen. The boys say no, and she seems disappointed. I believe she is capable of manipulating magic through the Yllish language (as we know that she can read/knot the language).

Secondly, we have the description of the Yllish language from Kvothe's learning under the Chancellor. It reads: "You couldn't merely say "the Chancellor's socks." Oh no. Too simple. All ownership was oddly dual: as if the Chancellor owned his socks, but at the same time the socks somehow also gained ownership of the Chancellor. This altered the use of both words in complex grammatical ways. As if the simple act of owning socks somehow fundamentally changed the nature of a person."

Since I read it, I have thought that this passage was incredibly specific and had to have more meaning than it did. If, as I believe, Yllish is a reflection of written names (as in true names), then this complexity may become understandable and even helpful to a later understanding of Naming and the relationships between things that the sleeping mind somehow understands. I believe that the knotted intricacy of Yllish knots resemble the 'complete understanding' necessary for someone to call on the name of something.

Then you have the passage wherein Kvothe discovers that Denna has woven story knots into her hair.

" "Your braid," I clarified.
"It almost says lovely."
Her mouth made a perfect "o" of surprise, and one hand went self-consciously to her hair. "You can read it?" she said, her voice incredulous, her expression slightly horrified. "Merciful Tehlu, isn't there anything you don't know?"
"I've been learning Yllish," I said. "Or trying to. It's got six strands instead of four, but it's almost like a story knot, isn't it?"
"Almost?" she said. "It's a damn sight more than almost." Her fingers plucked at the piece of blue string at the end of her braid. "Even Yllish folk barely know Yllish these days," she said under her breath, plainly irritated.
"I'm not any good," I said. "I just know some words."
"Even the ones that do speak it don't bother with the knots." She glared sideways at me. "And you're supposed to read them with your fingers, not by looking at them."
"I've mostly had to learn by looking at pictures in books," I said.
Denna finally untied the blue string and began to unfurl the braid, her quick fingers smoothing it back into her hair.
"You didn't have to do that," I said. "I liked it better before."
"That's rather the point, isn't it?" She looked up at me, tilting her chin proudly as she shook out her hair. "There. What do you think now?"
"I think I'm afraid to give you any more compliments," I said, not exactly sure what I'd done wrong."

Clearly there is something significant about the choice of the word lovely, and Denna seems deeply upset by the fact that Kvothe can read it. She immediately changes her braid and Kvothe says he likes it less. This leads to my next point.

If we accept the theory that Yllish story knots are in fact written magic and Denna can use this form of magic, then it becomes entirely possible, perhaps even probable, that Denna has been manipulating Kvothe's emotions for her throughout the entirety of their interactions by knotting her hair in specific ways. This is evidenced in the scene where Kvothe meets Denna in Severen and she confesses that Master Ash has become her patron.

"I expect I know his real name," she shrugged, running a hand through her hair. When her fingers touched the braid she seemed surprised to find it there and quickly began to unravel it, her deft fingers smoothing it away.

Immediately after this paragraph, the conversation turns argumentative, leading to this.

"Well I guess we can't all be as clever as you," she said.
"Clever doesn't have anything to do with it!" I came close to shouting. "He could have taken you away with him! He could have come forward and vouched for you!"
"He couldn't let anyone know he was there," Denna said. "He said—"
"He beat you." And as I spoke the words I felt a terrible anger come together inside me. It wasn't hot and furious, as some of my flashes of temper tend to be. This was different, slow and cold. And as soon as I felt it, I realized it had been there inside me for a long while, crystallizing, like a pond slowly freezing solid over a long winter night.


This is a clear change in tone that happens immediately after she removes her braid. This is, however, not the only time that Kvothe's temper flares up, but it is described in a pointedly different manner. Kvothe's flashes of anger are generally described as hot and quick, burning away. This is decidedly different. Described as 'slow', 'cold', and 'icy'.

Another example would be this excerpt from the fight over Denna's song.

Her dark hair was lustrous in the sunlight, unadorned except for three narrow braids tied with blue string. She was barefoot, and her feet were grass-stained. She smiled.

This prefaces the beginning of the scene that fundamentally changes the relationship between Denna and Kvothe. Next, she plays her song while Kvothe braids some grass together, forgetting how he intended to finish the braid. Seeing as we are beginning to view braids and knots as important, I feel this might be connected to Kvothe's unconscious ability to find names with his sleeping mind (Keth-Selhan, Auri). Next is the point at which she finishes the song and Kvothe becomes uncomfortable. He doesn't become agitated, but describes himself as being numb up until this point. He tries to remain calm and contain himself, even considering making an explanation of what happened with the Chandrian and his family. He stays fairly composed until Denna calls him a child for believing in the Chandrian. Following is what happens after that.

"What kind of a child are you?"
I knew exactly how childish it made me sound. I felt myself flush hot
with embarrassment, my whole body suddenly prickling with sweat. I opened my mouth to speak, and it felt like cracking open the door of a furnace. "I'm like a child?" I spat. "What do you know about anything, you stupid ..." I almost bit off the end of my tongue to keep from shouting the word whore.
"You think you know everything, don't you?" she demanded. "You've been to the University so you think the rest of us are—"
"Quit looking for excuses to be upset and listen to me!" I snapped. The words poured out of me like molten iron. "You're having a snit like a spoiled little girl!"
"Don't you dare." She jabbed a finger at me. "Don't talk to me like I'm some sort of witless farm girl. I know things they don't teach at your precious University! Secret things! I'm not an idiot!"
"You're acting like an idiot!" I shouted so loudly the words hurt my throat. "You won't shut up long enough to listen to me! I'm trying to help you!"
Denna sat in the center of a chilly silence. Her eyes were hard and flat. "That's what it's all about, isn't it?" she said coldly. Her fingers moved in her hair, every flick of her fingers stiff with irritation. She untied her braids, smoothed them out, then absentmindedly retied them in a different pattern. "You hate that I won't take your help. You can't stand that I won't let you fix every little thing in my life, is that it?"
"Well maybe someone needs to fix your life," I snapped. "You've made a fair mess of it so far, haven't you?"
She continued to sit very still, her eyes furious. "What makes you think you know anything about my life?"
"I know you're so afraid of anyone getting close that you can't stay in the same bed four days in a row," I said, hardly knowing what I was saying anymore. Angry words poured out of me like blood from a wound. "I know you live your whole life burning bridges behind you. I know you solve your problems by running—"
"What makes you think your advice is worth one thin sliver of a damn,
anyway?" Denna burst out. "Half a year ago you had one foot in the gutter. Hair all shaggy and only three raggedy shirts. There isn't a noble in a hundred miles of Imre that would piss on you if you were on fire. You had to run a thousand miles to have a chance of a patron."
My face burned with shame at her mention of my three shirts, and I felt my temper flare hot again. "You're right of course," I said scathingly. "You're much better off. I'm sure your patron would be perfectly happy to piss on you—"
"Now we get to the heart of it," she said, throwing her hands up in the air. "You don't like my patron because you could get me a better one. You don't like my song because it's different from the one you know." She reached for her harp case, her movements stiff and angry. "You're just like all the rest."
"I'm trying to help you!"
"You're trying to fix me," Denna said crisply as she put away her harp. "You're trying to buy me. To arrange my life. You want to keep me like I'm
your pet. Like I'm your faithful dog."
"I'd never think of you as a dog," I said, giving her a bright and brittle smile. "A dog knows how to listen. A dog has sense enough not to bite a hand that's trying to help."
Our conversation spiraled downward from there.


Kvothe clearly becomes far more honest with Denna than he ever has been previously when she reties her braids, and his demeanor changes startlingly. It's like every word that he didn't even think previously is let out all at once. He even says that he didn't know what he was saying anymore.

The next paragraph begins with a regretful Kvothe describing how he was at fault and all of the hurtful things he said were his own words. How poetically, perfectly ironic would it be of our esteemed Mr. Rothfuss if in the very moment where Kvothe confesses his error, we find out that he was actually affected by magic and was less in control of his words than he was made to seem?

I will point out that the only reference to knots that is at all relevant in the Name of the Wind is the following.

“Knots are interesting things,” Ben said as he worked. “The knot will either be the strongest or the weakest part of the rope. It depends entirely on how well one makes the binding.” He held up his hands, showing me an impossibly complex pattern spread between his fingers.

Again, if knots are an analogy for naming, then this may have some greater significance later. I have also found Denna's question about written magic.

She looked down nervously, her fingers tracing patterns on the tabletop. "Then, if someone saw the writing, even if they couldn't read it, it would be true for them. They'd think a certain thing, or act a certain way depending on what the writing said." She looked up at us again, her expression a strange mix of curiosity, hope, and uncertainty.

The patterns on the table remind me of the Lackless box that Kvothe views in the Wise Man's Fear, which implies it could be locked through some sort of Yllish magic.

This is the end of my argument for Yllish knots being magical, but I will add another argument I want to bring up.

Many have speculated over the line from the song about the Lackless family.

"In a box no lid or locks
Lackless keeps her husband's rocks."

Saying that they are unsure of what it means. I believe I may have figured it out. First off, it implies a connection between the Lackless and Iax/Jax (which I have no evidence for). My belief is that Iax when he sealed the moon's name in a box- the Lackless box- he used a pseudo-sympathetic link to somehow bind the name of the moon within the box. Kvothe says on examination that he believes it holds either glass or stone. He also suggests that it may be something 'locked away' and quotes the above line of song.

My belief is that Iax took a lodenstone (also known as sky-iron or star-iron, i.e. it is known to fall from the sky, so may in fact have originated on the moon.) and studied it until he was capable of finding its name.

Now if the laws of sympathy are similar to the laws of naming, it follows that knowing the name of a piece of something- the moon- would give you at least a partial knowledge of the name of the whole of the thing.

I believe that Iax used his understanding of naming to gain the name of the lodenstone (which we'll assume is a moonstone) and from there tried to gain the name of the moon, but was unable to fully 'know' the moon, and therefore was only able to pull a piece of it into the fey. I believe that he placed his moonstone into the Lackless box, which held this connection between the lodenstone and the moon, and therefore the box holding 'rocks' is explained.

wow, haven't been on the board in awhile and this is the first thing i read...holy cow @joel, this is an amazing theory...i need to re-read now.

Wow!!!!!!! Loved your theory!
:-)

Yes, this is a known theory (one I completely agree with), but this was really really well put together =)

I was looking for a Reddit post I usually link people about this, but I couldn't find it at all. Either way, your post is the one I'm going to link people from now on xD. There are more mentions of her braids throughout WMF, and they ALL give credence to this theory.

Her braids start being mentioned soon after she came back from her travel to Yll, back in Imre, and she avoids wearing them when Kvothe is around. I believe she doesn't want to use them on him, as she wants the real Kvothe. The first time it appears, she had just joined Kvothe and immediately undid her braids once she noticed she still had them. They're not meant for him.

There's one point where Kvothe is leading her to Maer's garden and the conversation goes like this:

“Rest assured,” I said. “If I were going to try to seduce you, this isn’t the way I would go about it.”

“Is that so?” she said, running her hand through her hair. Her fingers began to idly twine her hair into a braid, then she stopped and brushed it out. “In that case, what are we doing here?”

I like this one because it's the most subtle. She says something like "Oh rly?" and starts doing her braids, but then thinks better of it. She wouldn't want to risk their relationship.

There's also the most obvious one, at the end of WMF:
“You should.” Denna straightened her clothes, moving with an uncharacteristic stiffness, and ran her hands through her hair, twisting it into a thick plait. Her fingers knitted the strands together and for a second I could read it, clear as day: “Don’t speak to me.” I might be thick, but even I can read a sign that obvious. I closed my mouth, biting off the next thing I’d been about to say. Then Denna saw me eyeing her hair and pulled her hands away self-consciously without tying off the braid. Her hair quickly spun free to fall loose around her shoulders. She brought her hands in front of her and twisted one of her rings nervously.
(He started talking again then, since she didn't hold the knots)

She also seems to date people that are related to Yll somehow, like Deoch or that guy looking at the sun for time.

I believe that there's something more behind Yllish's grammar as well, but I actually think it's related to shaping instead of naming (if there's any big difference between the two at least). I think Kvothe will learn that "secret magic" Old Cob mentions he stole from the University through those Yllish scrolls he finds in a hidden room at the Archives.

I don't think his different anger to Master Ash is caused by the braids though. I'm sure 'slow', 'cold', and 'icy' has been used to describe his anger towards him before, and when there was no braids around. I think it's because Master Ash is Cinder.

I must disagree with your point about the grass "braid" too, I think you missed Pat's point. He was doing a grass ring, remember Bradon told him grass rings were meant for young lovers (or something like this). It was all going so well between the two at the time, and he started doing it (I'm not sure if consciously or not). As things go wrong, he stops doing it and finally did't remember how to finish it at all. I think it's some neat little symbolism.

Anyway, that's a great theory. I believe it's on par with Kvothe's mother being Netalia Lackless and Cinder being Master Ash in terms of probability.
Here's something cool:
http://badalijewelry.com/images/produ...
This is Denna's ring, notice the knots. Pat gave instructions to its design. Probably not arbitrary, I would say.

Gabriel wrote: "Yes, this is a known theory (one I completely agree with), but this was really really well put together =)

I was looking for a Reddit post I usually link people about this, but I couldn't find it ..."


Haha yeah I had initially planned on including those things within the argument, but I ran out of words :/.

Yet another theory that may have already been suggested by someone, but when the skindancer/crazy man comes to the Waystone Inn, he says he's looking and then asks "Te Rhintae?"

We learn later in the Wise Man's Fear that the Rhinta are the Chandrian. If this language is similar to our Latin-based languages, I think it's possible that the man is asking "Are you one of the Chandrian?" I say this because the tu/ta/te form is the 'you' form in these languages, and Rhinta as a group being changed to Rhintae as a singular seems likely to me.

@Joel You me away with this theory. I feel like an ant, barely able to comprehend. A very happy ant tho. XD If I could rate forum topics like books you'd get five stars!

Really awesome theory. Not one is heard before but it makes so much sense

Okay, so I havea theory on the creation war and the lackless rhyme..

What if Selitos is the Cthaeh? A knower, mad that the shapers(Lanre, Lyra, Iax) are changing his beloved world/city. Let me elaborate.

Selitos, leader of the greatest empire and marvelous city is struggling to keep his throne along w keeping the world in its natural state (Blak of Drossen Tor fight between shapers and knowers). However, the strongest people in the world fight(Lanre/Lyra/Iax) on his side to strike down opposers.(rest of the world i guess)

Selitos/Cthaeh then convinces Lanre and Lyra to fight these epic battles knowing(Sees the future or can at least see possible outcomes from past actions of people) they would defeat the people opposing Selitos. Then once the war is over the only people left, strong enough to oppose him are L&L.. Knowing this Selitos/Cthaeh convinces Lanre to slay the beast(Great Draccus) knowing he would die and thus cancel out at least one of the threats..

Lanre dies killing beast. Lyra brings back Lanre. He comes to realization that Selitos has tricked them so he plots revenge.
I'm guessing Lyra still was on Selitos's side so Lanre gets mad that she would side with the enemy.

Lanre coverts Iax so he would build the fae and steal part of Lyras name(the moon - thus fuguratively killing lyra) because Lanre isn't as skilled as Iax in naming yet. Then out of revenge he knows death is too kind of a punishment for Selitos. So he destroys only thing Selitos loved, his city and seals him beyond the doors of stone(the fae) binding him to the wheel(tree that contails medals - ruah or something - i will elaborate in a bit).

One thing to note before I state the next thing is that Kvothe says after being in the Eld and Fae is that where Felurian took him is similar to where they just were but w out the same stars making it a 4th dimension of the same world explaining a loooot about the world..

Thus comes the rhyme:
7 things has lady lackless(the chandrian - yllish say if one owns something that thing owns them also thus her name:the chandrian)

Keeps them underneath her black dress(the night sky)

One a ring unworn - The circle of greystones in the center of Tariniel(the difference between the names Fair Tariniel and Myr Tariniel would be that one is in the faebut they are the same location)Thus, when selitos/Cthaeh/Encanis was bound and burned by the iron wheel(circle of greystones w a ruah tree in the middle containing iron and other medals) Iax sent the moon to the fae and Lanre pulled Selitos there. This would explain why the Sithe/Amyr gaurd their leader. Also since Kvothe had recently shown a star on his brow the sithe would ignore his approach to the Cthaeh seeing as he is considered Cirdae.

One a word that is forsworn(The name of the tree cthaeh sits on - the tree symbolizes the iron wheel because if they are the same it would explain trapis saying the name of the wheel was not spoken because it was terrible or saying it might release selitos or something)

One a time that must be right(Moon must be in Fae pulling things there or in their world pulling selitos and all the other fae there)

One a candle w out light(It could be the moon or Kvothe w his "flame" hair or maybe if you look at the lackless box at the right moon phase the yllish writing glows and thus you have the time is right part and this would also lead to the next one..)

One a son who brings the blood(Kvothe opens the lackless box containing the obsidian knife selitos used to bind Lanre at the right moon phase in the ring of greystones and somehow pulls selitos/cthaeh back into this world)

One a door that holds the flood(Kvothe opened the door indefinately between the fae and their world up on the stormwall mountains in the center of Myr tariniel explaining the screal coming over mountains in the east)

One a thing tight held in keeping(Cthaeh and all the amyr and faen)

Then comes that which comes with sleeping(burning down the world and killing Haliax i guess and since Kvothe brought back Lanres only enemy the chandrian are after Kvothe so he goes to Neware and uses all his alar to bind silence around the inn so chandrian cant find him " barging into a trap(opening the door or telling his story and repeatedly using chandrian names) with a plan to turn it on itself(goes into hiding preparing an ambush on the chandrian by luring them to his inn)

Kvothe is considered an angel or has the spirit of one( the white star symbolizing rightousness and power of angels) so by changing his name he kills an angel and tricks the chandrian/demon in thinking he is truly dead so he can gain his hearts desire - lure the chandrian to his inn and kill them.

@Shaliza

During his time in the Fae he called Felurians name to bind her and then surrounded her in a shroud of wind-flame. He is described then as having a white star above his brow to signify he is MOST POWERFUL. Only after seeing this does Felurian become scared. I always saw this scene as the exact same thing Lanre did to Selitos. It would explain why the stone were ripped from the mountain.

LOL SAME! and now Rothfuss is going to write a battle between Felurian and Terry Pratchetts, Death on app.snapapp.com/CageMatchWomenWarrior... ! Also, you HAVE to get the Name of the Wind audio book simply for the part when Kvothe meets the pig herder, Schiem outside Trebon w Denna. Their voicing is great! and it brang the scene to life where before was just hard to read w the funny dialect..