Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

The title is an ironic reference to the central character of the novel, Prince Lyov Nikolaevich Myshkin, a young man whose goodness and open-hearted simplicity lead many of the more worldly characters he encounters to mistakenly assume that he lacks intelligence and insight.

Would anyone like to be a Discussion Leader for this Classic?

I've never even heard if this classic. Just looked it up. It sounds good.

I read it a few years ago and it is one of my favourite Dostoevsky novels. The hero, Prince Myshkin is very special.

Downloaded. :) Do we have a discussing leader yet?

What does a discussion leader have to do? I would do it but I do not know anything about the book (yet).

Update: Ok, I found the post "What is a "Discussion Leader"?" I think I could do it.

I read it some months ago. I really liked it, but I thought Crime and Punishment was way better. But still, it was an interesting read. A lot of great characters :)

Nicole, leading a discussion is fun and very easy. Thanks for volunteering.

Nicole will be our Discussion Leader for The Idiot.

Please welcome her!

I read the book when I was 21 and reread it forty years later. I enjoyed it both times. On the second reading I enjoyed Dostoevsky's sense of humour. This book is not as grim as Crime and Punishment.
Dostoevsky has always been my favourite Russian writer, and this is one of my two favourites by D. The other is The Brothers Karamazov.

Thank you Lesle!
From what I learned so far in reviews and on wikipedia, the book is going to be fun, although it (my copy) has 943 pages.

Oh, I actually have seen The Idiot in theatre. Only two or three years ago. That memory just came back to me. About the main character I remember thinking, "What a pathetic sissy". :-) The atmosphere during the play was very dark and blue... But I do not remember how the story went.

According to Wikipedia, "In the character of Prince Myshkin, Dostoyevsky set himself the task of depicting "the positively good and beautiful man". The novel examines the consequences of placing such a unique individual at the centre of the conflicts, desires, passions and egoism of worldly society, both for the man himself and for those with whom he becomes involved. The result (...) is "one of the most excoriating, compelling and remarkable books ever written; and without question one of the greatest."

I think that sounds promising.
So, who would like to join me?

Your more than Welcome Nicole!

If the consensus is that most editions are that large, I have no problem extending the time out past September 14th. Just let me know.

Nicole and interested Members,

Amazon has this as a free Kindle eBook right now.
Click on the cover of the book above and after the description section it says "Get a Copy" Kindle eBook $0.00.

You can even convert the free Amazon ebooks to epub if you have an epub-reader. And you can download it from Project Gutenberg (gutenberg.org) for free and convert it to epub or pdf or the amazon file format.

I have it in German and german books always have more pages, compared to English books, our words are longer, I think. In English it has around 700 pages.

For those of you who live near Munich, there is a vegetarian restaurant called Prinz Myshkin. My husband and I ate there in 2002 and it is still there. It is near the centre of Munich.
So Dostoevsky has influenced more than literature.

Rosemarie wrote: "For those of you who live near Munich, there is a vegetarian restaurant called Prinz Myshkin. My husband and I ate there in 2002 and it is still there. It is near the centre of Munich.
So Dostoevsk..."
Somehow I don't think of Dostoevsky when I think of culinary influences. If I do, I think spare, utilitarian, prison-like food.
I've only read C&P and Notes, bought BK to read sometime, but will instead try The Idiot with group. I approach it with some trepidation. After reading W&P in January and February, I'm unsure I have it in me to tackle another Russian so soon. I hope my Pevear translation of the Idiot, which should arrive from Amazon today, has a name guide. However, if not, it may not be needed. It won't be quite like W&P or Anna K where I referred to the guide often for the first 6-7 hundred pages. C&P didn't have nearly the number of characters Tolstoy uses.

I have been googleing the reason they named the restaurant after that character. But there is nothing about it history on their web page or elsewhere in the internet.

The problem I have with the names in The Idiot is not the mass of names, but they are such tongue twisters (like "Nikolai Andrejewitsch Pawlischtschew"). First I ignore them or they would interrupt the flow of reading, then I am lost, and then I have to consult the name guide.

When I read it I had a character map, so it would be easier to tell who's who. I used this one: https://odinlake.files.wordpress.com/...

Julianne wrote: "When I read it I had a character map, so it would be easier to tell who's who. I used this one: https://odinlake.files.wordpress.com/..."

That map is great! I did not know such maps exist...

I'm confused... Did Totski have a romantic relationship with Natashia? He admits he is at fault due to his "sensual nature" but earlier it had not seemed as thou this was the case. Can someone explain the nature of their relationship to me beyond her being his ward and wanting to prevent his marriage out of spite?

Lauren wrote: "I'm confused... Did Totski have a romantic relationship with Natashia? He admits he is at fault due to his "sensual nature" but earlier it had not seemed as thou this was the case. Can someone expl..."

Yes, she was his mistress. (i think he used her dependency on him to his advantage when she was a young girl)

Thank you. I was actually a little miffed at the way she was framed as pointlessly spiteful but now her hatred and revenge makes sense.

Nicole wrote: "Julianne wrote: "When I read it I had a character map, so it would be easier to tell who's who. I used this one: https://odinlake.files.wordpress.com/..."

That m..."

Every time I read books with a lot of characters or with confusing names (like Wuthering Heights - where everybody has the same name!) I google the title and "characters" to see if anyone has made such a map, because it can make the experience of the book so much better :)

I'm not sure she is as bitchy as Totsky portays her. Maybe he was exaggerating, trying to make excuses for the abuse of his ward.

No doubt. He completely took advantage of her then intended to leave her in the country as his mistress while he married someone else. I don't feel sorry for him at all.

Everyone is rather awful. Conceited and with secret motivations. I'm not sure what to think of the story so far.

The story of Marie was recounted almost like a biblical parable.

I like the prince but am finding the story bemusing.

Yep, a parable with Prince Myshkin as the personification of Jesus Christ with all his grace and mercy.
Or it is just another soap opera ;-) a classic russian soap opera.
But Dostojewski is definitely showing us a vain and egoistic society and the impact of their behaviour on those who are in a position of weakness.

I'm going to be honest.... Not sure I can finish this. The melodrama and moralising isn't to my tastes. If one of the female characters gets killed off to prove some sexist moral point I'm going to swear very loudly in Russian while tossing this out the window of my car. I didn't like that emphasis on execution followed by Marie the sinner business at all. It reeks of foreshadowing.

Lauren wrote: "I'm going to be honest.... Not sure I can finish this. The melodrama and moralising isn't to my tastes. If one of the female characters gets killed off to prove some sexist moral point I'm going to..."

You know how to swear in Russian? I'm impressed. ;-)
Anyway, I hope the book is not following that path. We will see...

Oh my. Myshkin is in a condition of metal derangement aaaand he was talking to himself in his mind for I don't know how many pages. A lot of pages. Reading about that was exhausting. I have earned a day off today :-)

By the way, there is a painting, Rogoshin is very fascinated with. It is in his flat. Myshkin commented on it when he visited Rogoshin. Here it is: The Body of the Dead Christ in the Tomb

Nicole wrote: "Oh my. Myshkin is in a condition of metal derangement aaaand he was talking to himself in his mind for I don't know how many pages. A lot of pages. Reading about that was exhausting. I have earned ..."

Thanks for posting the link to the painting. I didn't even think to look it up. Seeing it has reinforced my already extreme image of Rogoshin.

Part II of the book was very exhausting. Dostojewski knew how to present his characters to give his readers a headache:-)

Myshkin with his mental condition. People screaming and crying,
"and I hate you all!" If they are not screaming, they are babbling and never get to the point.

Lisaweta, the General's wife, is the only one who can think clearly, "Enough,(...)we have had enough of this balderdash!"

Worst of all, they know that they completely act the fools, "Here is shame enough for a year!". But still, they do not stop.

Do things pick up in Part III? I was really into Part I, now I'm halfway through Part II and quickly losing interest.

Ellen wrote: "Do things pick up in Part III? I was really into Part I, now I'm halfway through Part II and quickly losing interest."

I have no idea what happens in part III (I really tried to read faster than everyone else, to be able to answer questions - but the going is tough.).

Part II is mostly about the evening on Myshkin's terrace in Pavlovsk where they all gather to scream at each other. Nastasia showed up in the end. I think, theoretically, the action is still rising, there has to come some turning point soon and then the big catastrophe.

I just finished Part II, the last chapter was enough of a cliffhanger for me to keep reading.

I just finished Part I and it is interesting that, while most of the reading is tough going, Dosty does end many chapters with situations which make me want to read on a little more.
The Prince reminds me of Pierre in War & Peace.

Due to the fact that my (german) version does have a lot more pages than the english version of the book, I was curious and compared the books. It seems the english version is indeed shorter. For example:

English:
"Well, let me tell you that if I hate anyone here—I hate you all," he cried, in a hoarse, strained voice—(...)

German:
"Well, let me tell you," he cried, in a hoarse, strained voice, while drops of salvia flew out of his mouth, "that if I hate anyone here—and I hate you all, all!"(...)

I could not find the russian version, it is not at www.gutenberg.org, or else I would have checked the original sentence with Google translate.

Nicole, your German version, with the drops of saliva and extra 'all.' is more vivid. Since there are several English translations, I'm curious if mine (Pevear) has the same language as yours, but I don't know where the quote is from.

The quote is from Hippolyte, Part II, chapter 10, near the end, 4th page to last in my book, when he talked to Lizabetha, or rather they screamed at each other.
My translation is from 1920, by Herman Röhl - does not sound like a native russian speaker.
I compared it to the english version on gutenberg.org, that was translated in 1913 by the english author Eva Martin.

And yes, it is more vivid and also makes sure some characters appear very annoying, which was, undoubtedly, Dostoevsky's intention :-)

Pevear and Volokhonsky are known (and lauded) for their word-for-word translations.

Nicole, the Pevear/Volokhonsky has the character called Ippolit saying:

"Know, then, that if I hate anyone, here," he screamed, wheezing, shrieking, spraying from his mouth, " and I hate all of you, all of you!" -- but you, you.....[and then the sentence proceeds on to a more personal hate attack]

Pevear/Volokhonsky doesn't use the phrases "well, let me tell you" or "in a hoarse, strained voice" which the other 2 used.

Ah, the translation game.

No, I see now that I obviously didn't translate the sentence from German to English properly. Pevear's translation is exactly how the sentence would be if I translated it back to german. And the character is in German also called Ippolit. In the english gutenberg-translation his name is Hippolyte.

It seems both of our copies are very good and literal translations.

I do not understand the role of Ippolit. I understand he represents the common folk and criticises feudalism and unequal ownership conditions - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer... But why did Dostojewski choose such an annoying and dislikeable character? Perhaps I am the only one who does not like him?

I'm in part IV chapter II and still have 200 pages to read.

Ellen, Lauren, Brian, how is it going?

Nicole, I'm only at the end of Part II at the first confrontation with Ippolit and friends we discussed on translations. You had said the conversation was on the terrace, yet the action had me visualizing more of a room. Then I checked the endnote which described a Russian terrace as:
"something between a room and open veranda; a large unheated space with many windows and a door leading to the inner rooms, but also an outside door and steps leading down to the garden. The action of much Russian literature and drama takes place on such terraces."
I will finish Part II sometime tomorrow. I hope to get going on a faster pace at the end of this week. As to Ippolit, I expected Lebedev's nephew's friends to be annoying.

Thank you for the explanation. So it is a sunroom or winter garden.

Nicole wrote: "I do not understand the role of Ippolit. I understand he represents the common folk and criticises feudalism and unequal ownership conditions - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer... "

I just finished Part III Chapter VII where Ippolit is reading his essay. I'm probably way off here, but the entire time I was reading it I was thinking that it sounded too personal, like it was Dostoevsky's voice. Perhaps he got too drunk one night and wrote this self-deprecating piece...then shaped a character around it.

The Idiot is indeed autobiographical. Like his character Myskin, Dostojewski suffered from Epilepsy.

And do you remember the part where Myshkin talks about executions and how you feel when they pardon you in the last minute? That was something Dostojewski experienced. Along with a radical russian intellectual group, the Petrashevsky Circle, he was sentenced to death by a firing squad for anti-government activities. When the rifles were already aimed at their heads a messenger came from Tsar Nicholas I. with an official pardon. It turned out, the government wanted to scare them with a mock execution. Dostojewski was then sent to a labour camp in Siberia.

My goodness, I'm just a couple chapters into Part IV and I am ready for this to be over. I've enjoyed the story, but the beginning of Part IV feels like Dostoevsky forgot he was writing a novel and it just turned into his journal.

I just read a little more about Dostoevsky on the side and it does make me understand The Idiot a little better, however it does not necessarily make me like it more.

Reading Part IV was very tough for me, too. Most of the time you have to overcome these extra-long confusing paragraphs and monologues and it felt like the interesting things are only mentioned in passing.

But, many things happen in Part IV and Myshkin now really starts acting like an idiot - and many other characters too.

Thx Lesle for the tip on Amazon's Kindle Book. My sister just last week was telling me I could download the app to read these books. I'm a Prime member so many of these books I can read at no cost. Sorry for delay in catching up... I'm actually still reading Catcher in the Rye from this summer - was kept busy with grandkiddos :)