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Melchisedec
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Who is Melchisedec (Melchizedek)?
Mattia wrote: "Good question! The author of Hebrews said that is figure (is it the right terme in English?) of the Priest that have to come. I've forever found the exegesis of Hebrews very convincing. Nothing is ..."Hi Mattia,
Thanks for the response.
This question intrigued me so much that I did a deep Bible study about Melchisedec, which led to the writing of this book...
Melchisedec - A Character Study
What is amazing is that this is the ONLY person in the Bible that Jesus is patterned after.
Imagine that, Jesus is patterned after the order of Melchizedek!
What I did in my book was try to find every characteristic that the Bible ascribes to Melchisedec and compare each attribute with Jesus. It was an extremely interesting Bible study.
Psalm 110:4 - The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.Hebrews 5:6 - As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 5:10 - Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 6:20 - Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:11 - If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:17 - For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:21 - (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Mattia wrote: "You translate "kata" like "after", but this is a forcing. This translation presuppose, doesn't demonstrate the posteriority. Furthermore the posteriority would be of the order of Melchisedek, not o..."No... no forcing. Just believing the Word of God.
Psa 110:4 - "AFTER THE ORDER" = Strong's H1700 - dibrah - "דִּבְרָה dibrâh, dib-raw'; feminine of H1697; a reason, suit or style" - "I.cause, manner, reason"
Heb 5:6 - "AFTER" = Strong's G2596 - kata - "κατά katá, kat-ah'; a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined)" - "down from, through out - according to, toward, along"
Heb 5:6 - "ORDER" = Strong's G5010 - taxis - "τάξις táxis, tax'-is; from G5021; regular arrangement, i.e. (in time) fixed succession (of rank or character), official dignity" - "the post, rank, or position which one holds in civic or other affairs - since this position generally depends on one's talents, experience, resources - character, fashion, quality, style"
I agree with the VERY WORDS and the definitions that God Himself CHOSE!
"
Mattia wrote: "The VERY WORD is "kata" and "after" is only ONE of the possible meanings, that doesn't fit with context..."My response: I did NOT translate that... MANY Bible scholars HAVE!
It is also interesting how you are ignoring the definition of the word God CHOSE and is translated as "ORDER" (character, fashion, quality, style)
Are you a Bible scholar? Are you superior to many of the Bible translators?
Mattia wrote: "No, many translator translate "kata" like "according to". It's the first time I read this curious translation (yours!).Furthermore: if you translate "kata" with "after" you have to translate "taxi..."
Apparently, you do not read many English translations? Are you a scholar?
Here is a link to more than 50 English translations
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en...
"AFTER" = 14 times
"ACCORDING" = 19 times
"COMPARED" = 1 time
"LIKE" = 7 times
"KIND" - 1 time
"SAME RANK" = 2 times
"IN THE" = 6 times
Mattia wrote: "I've said "many translator translate "kata" like "according to"" and you've confirmed that. The most part of translators that you've presented translate "kata" with "according to". And in Italian A..."I have also confirmed that MANY translators say "AFTER".
So, you eisegetically pick and choose the translation you FAVOR... while I have done extensive Bible study and made my conclusions are based on the Word of God... NOT the opinions of men.
Jesus IS patterned after the Melchisedec. I need not FIND anything. God says it... that settles it!
Mattia wrote: "I think that the most accepted (19-14!) sense of "according to" is the right sense and that the "after" translation is a forcing...."Eisegesis!
AFTER = 14
LIKE (or JUST LIKE) = 7
SAME RANK = 2
KIND (or SAME KIND) = 1
IN THE = 6
I guess if you are into numbers (rather than the Word of God)...
30 is more than 19!
Melchisedec - A Character StudyI have done extensive study based on the Bible... and the Word of God is clear.
Jesus is patterned after the order of Melchisedec!
NOT ONE attribute of Melchisedec is contrary to Jesus. Jesus has truly been patterned after the order of Melchisedec!
So, Who is Melchizedek?
Melchisedec - A Character Study
Mattia wrote: "You aren't honest. "Like" is similar to "according to", not to "after".And:
According to: 19
Like: 7
Kind: 1 (opposite to "after")
Same rank: 2 (opposite sense of "after")
In the: 6 (in the same o..."
My response: Thank you for you OPINIONS.
1 Corinthians 4:3 - "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self."
Mattia wrote: "You are assuming a thesis of you, not of the Word."Thank you for your OPINION!
Psa 110:4 - "AFTER THE ORDER" = Strong's H1700 - dibrah - "דִּבְרָה dibrâh, dib-raw'; feminine of H1697; a reason, suit or style" - "cause, manner, reason"
Heb 5:6 - "AFTER" = Strong's G2596 - kata - "κατά katá, kat-ah'; a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined)" - "down from, through out - according to, toward, along"
Heb 5:6 - "ORDER" = Strong's G5010 - taxis - "τάξις táxis, tax'-is; from G5021; regular arrangement, i.e. (in time) fixed succession (of rank or character), official dignity" - "the post, rank, or position which one holds in civic or other affairs - since this position generally depends on one's talents, experience, resources - character, fashion, quality, style"
I agree with the VERY WORDS and the definitions that God Himself CHOSE!
Mattia wrote: "You are identifying God with yourself. Look for in the Bible which is the name of this identification..."
My response: THIS IS A LIE!
Quote me claiming to be God... or REPENT for bearing false witness against me.
Wow! And you desire to be taken seriously???
Mattia wrote: "You claim to identify your interpretation with the Word. "Kata" has at least two possible translations and "according to" is possible and it makes sense. You don't accept the Word of God ("Kata") a..."My response: Reading and believing the definition of the Word of God... IS NOT A CLAIM TO BE GOD!
You have LIED and labeled a serious and baseless charge against me.
REPENT or produce proof that I have made such a claim.
Mattia wrote: ""Reading and believing the definition of the Word of God" you said: but definition of "kata" is also "according to"! You have claimed that I'm against the Word of God because I've another opinion i..."Since it is obvious that you have NO intention of REPENTING for LYING about me...
I forgive you even though you are not repentant.
it is very sad that you have NO PROBLEMS LYING about others.
Mattia wrote: "You have made a citation of 1 Cor 4,3 in which you have identified you with those having the Spirit of God, intending me for one of those that are against the Word. But you are obstinated in preten..."I forgive you for LYING about me and making a FALSE ACCUSATION that I think I am God.
This is serious and you need to REPENT!
Mattia wrote: "You act like and write like you're thinking you'r God. This is true."I forgive you for LYING about me and making a FALSE ACCUSATION that I think I am God.
This is serious and you need to REPENT!
Your arrogance is unbelievable! REPENT!
Mattia wrote: "Good night, think about your ostination in exegesis. :)"Proverbs 12:22 - "Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight."
You should REPENT.
Mattia wrote: "Yes, Robert, I should repent. All we should. Have a good night!"WILL YOU?
You have slandered me... I have not heard it!
Mattia wrote: "Robert, you don't interpret the Bible, you force her, you accuse everything that doesn't concord with you that he is against the Word. You don't see."I see that you are ABOVE REPENTANCE... you are SO RIGHT that even when you are caught in a LIE... you REFUSE TO REPENT.
Proverbs 12:22 - "Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight."
Mattia wrote: "Robert, you are not able to have a dialogue: Im really really sad for that. Good night, I let you say the last word: you'll be happy."REPENT!
Then YOU will be happy.
I cannot believe that you claim to be some type of scholar and you are SO COMFORTABLE LYING!
You said that I claimed to be God... WHAT A LIE!
Robert, Mattia, I have an interesting theory about Melchizidek, but I'm sure it will get me into trouble with both of you.
What if the Bible was edited? Not all of it, of course, but some of it. What if the political stuff of the OT was edited to support the bloodline of Solomon even after the kingdom all fell apart and God obviously moved on to support other leaders? What if one of the parts that was edited--or even added in post--was the stuff about Melchizedek?
If you think about it, God did not originally dictate a holy order of priests within the city of Jerusalem. God told Moses to put the tabernacle atop certain mountains within the nation. David was the one who brought the tabernacle to Jerusalem...when he used that centralized city to consolidate his power. Think of it this way: Jerusalem was not a holy city until after it became a political city--just like Rome--just like most historical empires the world over. First the king uses it to consolidate his power...then he brings God in (locked in a little box) and uses his "possession" of God to further convince the people of his divine right.
Now what do you suppose the priests who were trying to follow Moses' guidelines might have thought of that? Do you think there might have been a split? Do you think maybe the priesthood that came to support David in "centralizing" his power within Jerusalem might have formed their own order? Do you think maybe the later generations might have seen fit to keep this embarrassing little rift out of the scriptures?
If you consider this "order of Melchizedek" to be a political order--one that argues in favor of centralizing the power of God into a single city within the nation of Israel, then things start to make sense...but from a very different viewpoint. Suddenly Jesus is not a member of a sacred priesthood, but a supporter of the Jerusalem-focused system of religion that dominated Israel and the region in the centuries before and since. Suddenly it makes sense why this is only discussed in the book of Hebrews, where the author is obviously trying to appeal to a group who still think that their petty little religious order is still seated at the center of the universe.
What do you think?
Robert wrote: "What if the Bible was edited? Not all of it, of course, but some of it...."My response: Your theory would make God a liar, since He promised to PRESERVE His Word FOREVER.
Psalm 12:6-7
6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Melchisedec - A Character StudyPEACE
About Jesus:
Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
About Melchisedec:
Hebrews 7:2 - "To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;"
Mattia wrote: "1) the strongest one: we've not evidence for a priest' order apart of that of Levi. So yours theory become an identification between a pure sup..."God says there is ANOTHER and SUPERIOR priesthood...
Hebrews 7:11-12
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed , there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Mattia wrote: "The reasonement was about an historical order in the period of the monarchy of Israel, not The theological question."God says there is ANOTHER and SUPERIOR priesthood...
Hebrews 7:11-12
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed , there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Melchisedec - A Character StudyRIGHTEOUSNESS
About Jesus:
1 John 2:1 - "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
About Melchisedec:
Hebrews 7:2 - "To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of Righteousness..."
Get this Bible study book to learn more:
Melchisedec - A Character Study
I really wish I was as cocksure about what God wants as you all are.
John wrote: "I really wish I was as cocksure about what God wants as you all are."John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth..."
We don't "have" all truth... but Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide us into truth.
Melchisedec - A Character StudySALVATION
About Jesus:
Matthew 1:21 - "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins."
About Melchisedec:
Hebrews 7:25 - "Wherefore he is able also TO SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."
____
Learn more in this Bible study book:
Melchisedec - A Character Study
Melchisedec - A Character StudyNO BEGINNING AND NO END
About Jesus:
Micah 5:2 - "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
About Melchisedec:
Hebrews 7:3 - "...having neither beginning of days, nor end of life..."
____
Learn more in this Bible study book:
Melchisedec - A Character Study
Mattia wrote: "Are you having a debatment with yourself?"Nope! Comparing what the Bible says about Jesus with that of the Priestly order that He is patterned after... Melchisedec.
Amazing the similarities!
Mattia wrote: "Lots of similarities, but there is not "after"."Thank you for your opinion.
Hebrews 7:11 - "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?"
Mattia wrote: "We've already discussed this: you translate "kata" with "after" and it is not necessay. I don't agree: I would translate with "according to", with many translators (the most of them!)."Thank you for your opinion.
Are you a Bible scholar?
Hebrews 7:11 - "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?"
Psalm 110:4 - "The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."AFTER = 16 translations
ACCORDING = 10 translations
IN LINE = 1 translation
COMPARED = 1 translation
JUST LIKE / LIKE = 7 translations
KIND = 1 translation
IN THE WAY = 3 translations
As we can see, the MAJORITY of scholars translates the first mention of this account as AFTER.
Mattia wrote: "Robert, you've already posted a statistics with other datas...My response: I assume that you are unfamiliar with the hermeneutical Rule of First Mention
My last post employed that rule of interpretation, and since the NT authors were QUOTING this OT passage, the weight is in the original post.
Are you a Bible scholar? And you are not aware of the "Rule of First Mention"?
Mattia wrote: "You have retracted your false statistics?The original post was just different, it is not question of this rule. You've modified statistics because you want to "win". Dishonest."
My response: NOPE! I have applied solid hermeneutics and searched the FIRST MENTION to see what the NT authors were quoting.
Are you serious? You are UNAWARE of the "Rule of First Mention"?
Really? Are you a Bible scholar?
This is so tiring. No matter the topic, the same debate ensues.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaoR...
Mattia wrote: "Yes, very tiring."Are you a Bible scholar? And you are not aware of the "Rule of First Mention"????
Perhaps that is why the title of this thread is...
"The Forum - Debate Religion"
Melchisedec - A Character StudySON OF GOD
About Jesus:
John 1:49 - "Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel."
About Melchisedec:
Hebrews 7:3 - "...... but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."
____
Learn more in this Bible study book:
Melchisedec - A Character Study
Are you a Bible scholar? And you are not aware of the "Rule of First Mention"????Perhaps that is why the title of this thread is...
"The Forum - Debate Religion"
Well, of course. But it is also "Who is Melchisedec?"
Every thread gets hijacked by a few people who want to push their own pet Bible interpretations instead of the issue at hand. For every Bible verse and book suggested, I could come up with counter-verses and books. Do any really believe that one more clever theological bon mot is going to convince?
I agree with Mattia. Start another thread to debate your pet theories, and, in any other thread, stick to the subject at hand, PLEASE.
And, Robert, perhaps your response to Mattia was a little snarky?
John wrote: "I agree with Mattia. Start another thread to debate your pet theories, and, in any other thread, stick to the subject at hand, PLEASE. And, Robert, perhaps your response to Mattia was a little snarky?..."
My response: This is a DEBATE forum. I do not believe anyone is FORCED to contribute.
John wrote: "Sure, but debate the topic at hand."A quick review shows that most of my posts ARE about Melchisedec.
No, they are not. You are using the topic, once again (as on other threads), to debate your pet theories of election, predestination, and double predestination.
John wrote: "No, they are not. You are using the topic, once again (as on other threads), to debate your pet theories of election, predestination, and double predestination."Thank you for your OPINION .
Anyone who is interested can scroll through this discussion and see that most of my posts are about Melchisedec.
Perhaps you are confusing various discussions?
Melchisedec - A Character StudyMUCH MORE TO SAY THAN THEY CAN HANDLE
About Jesus:
John 16:12-13 - "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."
About Melchisedec:
Hebrews 5:10-11 - "being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. (11) Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing."
____
Learn more in this Bible study book:
Melchisedec - A Character Study
Oh, yes - in addition, you use these threads to promote your books.
John wrote: "Oh, yes - in addition, you use these threads to promote your books."Perhaps you are unaware that this web site is called...
GOODREADS
...it is ALL about book authors and book readers...
Melchisedec - A Character Study
Baptisms - One? Many? Or Both?
The Armor of God - Put It On, And Practice!
Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Melchisedec: A Character Study (other topics)Melchisedec: A Character Study (other topics)
Melchisedec: A Character Study (other topics)
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7 of these mentions tell us that the High Priestly ministry of Jesus is patterned after Melchisedec.
His name means "King of Righteousness" . He is described as the "King of Peace" .
Who is this man?