Children's Books discussion

Come join us to discuss any or all of these noteworthy children's books:

Americans Before Columbus by Elizabeth Chesley Baity
Minn of the Mississippi by Holling Clancy Holling
The Defender by Nicholas Kalashnikoff
The Light at Tern Rock by Julia L. Sauer
The Apple and the Arrow by Mary Buff

Opening this thread temporarily, because I cannot get The Light at Tern Rock in my home library system, and so am reading it now, while I visit my mother, from her system.

Good book. Very short, especially given the strong and moving illustrations. Young Ronnie learns the true meaning of Christmas, but in a manner I've never seen before. And he and his aunt learn other lessons, too. The book is a bit sexist in parts, but in the long run this woman does wind up proving herself, and if the characters don't realize it, the reader does.

"Go to your room now.... I'm not punishing you. I know you're not the spoiled urchin you'd like me to believe. But I know you'll feel better when you've cooled off and had time to think. What you need at the moment is some real lonesomeness. Run along now, child, and get it."

Getting out the reminder early as some of you may want to read these books and need to get them from ILL... they mostly look interesting, but not necessarily widely avl.

Please report if you find any in OpenLibrary or elsewhere online to read or borrow, thanks !

The Defender is not avl. in either print or e-book in any library I have even indirect access to, but it is on Open Library. We might have to wind up taking turns reading it.

I have ordered the others from my local system and feel it likely they'll come in.

I am interested in reading The Apple and the Arrow because it looks like it deals with the story of Wilhelm Tell.

Me too - I know *nothing* about that legend except what is revealed on the cover! I hope the book is reasonably accurate history.

Cheryl wrote: "Me too - I know *nothing* about that legend except what is revealed on the cover! I hope the book is reasonably accurate history."

The whole legend of Wilhelm Tell has been debated for centuries as to how historical it really is. There is ample proof that there probably was a Wilhelm Tell but much of the stories around him are now seen as legendary and by some even as mythologic.

The Apple and the Arrow is our family's current read-aloud. The kids are loving it.

I've received two of the books: The Apple and the Arrow, and Minn of the Mississippi. Interestingly, both are of a similar format, as big as a picture-book, with plenty of text and plenty of pictures, too.

Cheryl wrote: "I've received two of the books: The Apple and the Arrow, and Minn of the Mississippi. Interestingly, both are of a similar format, as big as a picture-book, with plenty of text and plenty of pictur..."

I am still waiting for the Wilhelm Tell inspired book. It will be interesting for me, whose favourite German drama is Schiller's Wilhelm Tell, to see and perhaps compare how Wilhelm Tell is portrayed in The Apple and the Arrow, if he is shown to be clearly a rebel against the Habsburgs right from the start or if like in Schiller's play, Tell only realises that he needs to act against the Habsburgs, that he needs to both kill Gessler and join the Swiss confederates against Austria after the apple/arrow scenario, (after Gessler forces him to shoot an apple from Walther's head).

I had no problem getting Tern Rock, Defender, and Apple & Arrow from the library. The actual problem is fitting them into my reading schedule...

Shockingly, there is a wait for Minn of the Mississippi. Does Holling C. Holling have such a big fanbase in Cincinnati?

I've heard that people who homeschool are fans of Holling....

That's very true - virtually every homeschool book list includes some or all of those Holling books (Minn, Paddle, Seabird, Tree, Pagoo). They do such a great job of teaching - and unlike many high quality vintage educational items, they are still in print.

We do have a large home schooling community in Cincinnati. The internet has really changed things.

The Apple and the Arrow is a quick read, covering mainly a very short time period. Told from the elder son's perspective. No real author's note, but a brief epilogue of Swiss history. Tell is definitely made out to be a hero, but not perfect, & rather hot-headed. Much is made of the wife's perspective, and a Christian hermit also has a key role.

I don't think that I would have liked this when I was a child. No girl characters and very few homely details, just adventure & history.

I don't think the Hapsburgs are ever mentioned by name.

Cheryl wrote: "The Apple and the Arrow is a quick read, covering mainly a very short time period. Told from the elder son's perspective. No real author's note, but a brief epilogue of Swiss history..."

Hmm, still have not gotten my copy of the book, but in Schiller's play, I do not think that Wilhelm Tell is presented as all that hot-headed. In fact, he is more to the point at first someone who wants to keep neutral but then Gessler forces his hand.

An interesting thing about the Buff book is that it places the action in the time leading up to the year 1291 - which is the date of the federal charter. Although many would say Tell is pure fiction, the date that has traditionally (going back to the 1500s) been associated with his deed (and the Rütlischwur, the pact by the 33 men on the Rootli - originally just 3 men, according to tradition) is 1307.

Apparently this 1291 date is a relatively recent (1889) development in how Swiss independence is considered, but I think the book would have made more historical sense if 1307 were the year specifically named.

I'm no scholar of European medieval history, and it's all a bit confusing. When you throw in the fictional probability, it's enough to make one grateful for the johnny-come-latelies of 1776.

Speaking of which, I do think one could read an American post-WWII sensibility into how this book presents things. The Buffs were not writing for a Swiss or even European audience.

Interesting, thank you.

I've flipped through Minn of the Mississippi but can't bring myself to read it. I used to own a copy, and for decades it sat on the shelf, mocking me for never picking it up... just not my thing.

Otoh, if you do homeschool, or like non-fiction or animal stories, it does look well-done with lots of rich information. The treatment of Native Americans *might* be problematic (there was one drawing I noticed that didn't look quite respectful), but I do think most of the book is still valuable.

I was able to get Americans Before Columbus through ILL. It just arrived today and I have not yet had a chance to start it (it does look like it has a glossary at the back but according to many of the reviews I have read, the book is dated, patronizing and often just plain wrong science and fact wise, so cannot say I am all that much looking forward to reading it).

I got a copy of Baity's book, too. It looks like no child has ever read it. Glancing through, it seems to have been an honest attempt at New World paleo-anthropology for young teens. It seems even to have that certain old-fashioned 'respect' for the primitive noble savages that was so common back then. The drawings are interesting. The text is long and seems as thorough as could be expected. There's absolutely no way, however, that I'm going to actually read the darn thing!

Cheryl wrote: "I got a copy of Baity's book, too. It looks like no child has ever read it. Glancing through, it seems to have been an honest attempt at New World paleo-anthropology for young teens. It seems even ..."

It does not really have the feel of a children's book, in my opinion. I am looking forward to reading it, but am a bit afraid of encountering too much of your above mentioned noble savage paternalism. But unlike you, I am hoping to actually convince myself to read the book from cover to cover, as I do find the subject fascinating and hope that I will not be too disappointed.

Just started on the Wilhelm Tell novel and the book just does not really feel truly Swiss to me, more like an American story of an individual's struggle against tyranny painted in a thin veneer of Swiss history. And the fact that the story is so wholly about Wilhelm Tell as an individual, as though he alone fought against the Habsburgs, that does bother me personally, as the Swiss rebellion was always a collective rebellion and Tell (as much as he might have been historical or not), was always just one spoke in the wheel.

Huh. I get what you say about Tell's story being too much like an American tale, but I must say that I always had a sense of all the others involved. There was the preface, and the conspiracy, and even some named individuals, iirc (too bad I had to return my copy to the library already).

Cheryl wrote: "Huh. I get what you say about Tell's story being too much like an American tale, but I must say that I always had a sense of all the others involved. There was the preface, and the conspiracy, and ..."

I am not that far into it yet, so my feelings might change (just got the book yesterday).

The Apple and the Arrow

Mary and Conrad Buff's Newbery Honour winning The Apple and the Arrow (which features Swiss national hero Wilhelm Tell's famous apple/arrow incident and is told from the point of view of his older son, Walter, the person who had the apple shot from the top of his head) is definitely readable and teeming with excitement and adventure (and of course also presents positive messages regarding fortitude, courage, fighting against tyranny, standing tall and brave against oppression). And yes, if I simply were to approach The Apple and the Arrow as a story in and of itself and uncritically, I could and would indeed consider it most enjoyable, evocative and for its publication date of 1951 both still relevant and not even all that horribly thematically dated (enjoying and appreciating in particular that while Wilhelm Tell is indeed considered heroically brave and patriotic, and with unrelenting courage fighting on behalf of Swiss independence, he is also not simply drawn as bravery personified, as heroic perfection, but is portrayed with flaws and peccadilloes, such as being in possession of a rather mercurial hot headedness and a tendency to basically and for him and his son Walter dangerously beak off rather quickly and without forethought so to speak).

However, and this is a very very big however for me personally, I just have not found either the storytelling or even the general themes of The Apple and the Arrow all that particularly European, all that particularly Swiss in nature (except perhaps Conrad Buff's accompanying illustrations), with the general plot line reading more like a North American (a United States of America) story of a single and courageous patriot fighting against oppressive tyranny (albeit of course painted with and in a thin and pale cracking veneer of Switzerland).

For according to my understanding of the Wilhelm Tell legend (and how Wilhelm Tell is also portrayed in Friedrich Schiller's famous play on the latter, how he is featured in Schiller's brilliant 1804 drama Wilhelm Tell), Wilhelm Tell is actually and generally NOT as he is for the most part portrayed by the Buffs as right from the BEGINNING of The Apple and the Arrow being an active conspirator against Gessler and Habsburg authority (no, Tell has generally or at least more often than not been portrayed both historically, folklorically and in European literature as someone who is at first rather an aloof and coolheaded loner, who although sympathetic to the rebellion against Austria, against Habsburg, is more concerned with his freedom as a lone mountain huntsman and only decides to actively and wholly join in the rebellion against Austrian rule when Gessler basically and without pardon and mercy forces his hand with the apple/arrow incident).

And even the apple/arrow incident (the main turning point of the legend and folklore regarding Wilhelm Tell as a hero, as a Swiss patriot) has not really (at least according to my personal knowledge of the Tell legend) been portrayed all that much in legend and literature as the Buffs have depicted it in The Apple and the Arrow (for unlike in the latter novel, in both Schiller's Wilhelm Tell and in most of the folktales, the legends surrounding Wilhelm Tell as a hero of the Swiss confederacy, Tell does not in fact actively and verbosely refuse to kneel before Gessler's plumed hat, that his failure to bow before it in respect might in fact have even been, as Tell attempts to explain to Gessler in Schiller's play, an actual oversight on his part, an unintentional omission). Of course, in both Schiller's Wilhelm Tell and in Mary and Conrad Buff's The Apple and the Arrow the entire premise of forcing the Swiss to acknowledge Gessler's tyrannical authority by having them salute and bow before his hat is considered and presented as being totally and utterly anathema, and the end result is also and indeed similar, is in fact the same, with Tell not bowing in front of the hat and then being forced to shoot an apple from his son Walter's head, and then later assassinating Gessler in Küssnacht (and why Tell does not immediately shoot Gessler and actually engages in the now famous "apple-shot" I have also never really and fully understood).

But yes, how Wilhelm Tell is portrayed as a general literary character in The Apple and the Arrow, does indeed bother me more than a bit on a personal level, as his presentation as a rather raging and right from the start active conspirator against Gessler and Habsburg tyranny is so majorly different from the Wilhelm Tell of history and legend that I know and yes love (from both Swiss folklore to Friedrich Schiller's classic play), that I cannot really, that I have not really been able just to read and simply enjoy The Apple and the Arrow, and that the to me a bit erroneous depictions of especially Wilhelm Tell's character do leave more than a bit to be personally desired. And thus for me, only a two star rating for The Apple and the Arrow (and no, not a terrible novel, and yes, an adventuresome story with important messages against tyranny and happily, fortunately in favour of striving against political oppression , but too historically inaccurate and yes too inaccurate on a literature basis as well for me to recommend The Apple and the Arrow without some major reservations and caveats, especially to and for readers like myself who adore Schiller's Wilhelm Tell and consider his Wilhelm Tell as the bona fide, the true Wilhelm Tell of legend and perhaps of history).

Americans Before Columbus

Although I have definitely and indeed found the featured topic of Elizabeth Chesley Baity's Americans Before Columbus interesting, and while I certainly did not expect the book to be current and thus up-to-date with regard to historical, scientific facts and details (seeing that it was published in 1951 and is also seemingly long out of print), the often rather at best questionable science and historical details and assumptions presented by the author really do tend to make me often cringe, and to the point that I was actually at first only considering but one star for Americans Before Columbus.

However, that having all been said, I have now in fact decided to rather majorly grudgingly award two stars instead of just one star for Americans Before Columbus, simply because the book did win a Newbery Honour designation and yes, does most definitely present interesting and readable information and knowledge on the peopling and the peoples of the Americas, on the Native populations of North and South America prior to Columbus (and yes, I do also in fact much believe that the author, that Elizabeth Chesley Baity has tried to make a good and honourable and yes, also for its time period an at least marginally respectful to Native Americans effort, although I personally still would ONLY recommend Americans Before Columbus with major and problematic caveats, major and painful reservations, and would absolutely NOT in any way suggest that the intended audience, that older children above the age of eleven or twelve simply peruse this book on their own, that Americans Before Columbus really should only be read with adult supervision, guidance and much discussion, preferably in a classroom situation).

One of my main issues with Americans Before Columbus (and one that I have also seen echoed in other negative and critical reviews of said book) is the simple and rather problematic truth of the matter that Elizabeth Chesley obviously has no real clue about and concept of geology and that geologic time extends for millions upon millions of years. Her comments about the Andes probably having risen very rapidly and in a very short time frame and that this forced native populations to move, to relocate, make absolutely no scientific sense whatsoever, as while mountains do rise and fall, this takes millions of years and does therefore and logically not happen overnight (or even within a few decades or centuries). Yes, indeed, the Andes area is and always has been both seismically and volcanically active, but the mountains have certainly not been rapidly rising higher and higher (at least not within the past 10000 years of so). And for the author to also then claim that the great desserts of the American Southwest were equally and quickly created by the (and once again) rapid rising of the Rocky Mountains and that this was occurring after the peopling of North America and affected Native American tribes approximately 1500 years ago, all this basically and fundamentally wrong and illogical geology, it just makes me totally shake my head in and with massive consternation, as by the 1950s, it was beginning to be generally accepted by most reasonable and thinking scientists that geologic features such as mountains and the like do NOT change within years, and even within hundreds and thousands of years, that geologic changes like folding and faulting mountains usually take millions of years to become noticeable (and I would most certainly in NO WAY want children or teenagers to be reading this type of what I personally would label as pseudo-science on their own and without guidance by teachers or at least educated caregivers, educated and engaged parents).

And furthermore, aside from some rather major generalisations and an attitude towards Native Americans (both from North and South America) that definitely veers rather too often towards paternalism and superiority of White Anglo Saxon Protestants (even if just implied), I actually have found some of the ethno-genetical stereotyping in which Elizabeth Chesley Baity engages during the course of Americans Before Columbus even more troubling and worrisome (and rather woefully unscientific as well). For example, Baity seems intent on claiming that the reason why the Spanish were seemingly so often cruel and genocidal with and in their approach to the Native populations of South America and the Caribbean was due to the fact that they are not just European in ethnicity but also have a moorish (read a Northern African) genealogical connection, almost as though the author wants to somehow demonstrate that it was primarily and mostly the Spanish Conquistadors who were by nature and genetics (and due to Moorish influence, therefore due to African genetics) cruel and definitely therefore much much worse than White Anglo Saxon Protestant settlers (and in my humble opinion, although the author does not in fact ever categorically claim the latter, she most definitely seems to imply this in Americans Before Columbus). And let's be totally honest here, not only is that kind of assessment basically and utterly wrong (not the claim that the Spanish were cruel and often actually murderously so with regard to their approach to Native American populations, but Baity's standpoint that they were somehow worse and more cruel and inhumane than other European settlers just does not mesh, is just not in any way the truth), it at least for me personally also and very sadly tends to denigrate and triviliase the cultural ethnic cleansing of the American Indian Removal Acts, Canadian Residential School atrocities etc. (and that is something I for one cannot and will not in any manner of speaking accept).

And finally, to return to issues with problematic and lacking science and scientific knowledge in Americans Before Columbus, Elizabeth Chesley Baity also provides some very strange and not all that scientifically acceptable information regarding the possible reasons for the extinction of so much of the North American mega fauna (during and immediately after the last glaciation period). For while today, while during the past twenty years approximately, it is indeed generally assumed that North American most Ice Age animals like mammoths became extinct in North America due to overhunting by the recently (form Eurasia), by Clovis and other such tribes, the author would rather let us believe that the mammoths all and sundry starved due to not being able to adapt to the agricultural practices of the recently arrived groups of people. And thus, while I will continue keeping my two star rating for Americans Before Columbus for the time being, I also have to admit that the scientific naiveté and basic lack of even a remotely averagely reasonable and intelligent attitude towards sciences like geology and and other disciplines, does make me rather livid, so angry in fact that I might (one day in the future) be forced to change the two stars to one measly and sad star.

Wow. Given what you say about the mountains and the 'Moorish' influence on the conquistadors, I'd definitely rate Chesley's books one star! I'm very glad I have decided not to read it. There are better books available on the subject now, I'm sure.

Cheryl wrote: "Wow. Given what you say about the mountains and the 'Moorish' influence on the conquistadors, I'd definitely rate Chesley's books one star! I'm very glad I have decided not to read it. There are be..."

Yeah, my two stars is being very generous, and I might still change it. It is actually the strange and unscientific geology that bugs me even more, especially since by the fifties, the concept that geologic time is long and that mountains rise and fall, that desserts are created in millions of years and not in short time frames,that all this was in fact becoming more the status quo, was becoming much more universally accepted.

As far as the others go:

Well, I can recommend The Light at Tern Rock... it's not amazing, but it's good, and short, with pretty pictures. The only actual fiction book this month.

Minn of the Mississippi is what it is. Holling Clancy Holling fans will read it, of course.

Has anyone read The Defender yet? I plan to read this second of the two historical fictions (coincidentally this month I have a pile of books for other group BotMs, too).

Cheryl wrote: "As far as the others go:

Well, I can recommend The Light at Tern Rock... it's not amazing, but it's good, and short, with pretty pictures. The only actual fiction book this month.

[..."

I am waiting for The Light at Tern Rock, and I am enjoying Minn of the Mississippi (dated but compared to the Americans Before Columbus, much less aggravating).

Have not found The Defender and not interested enough to try ILL.

So I did end up changing Americans Before Columbus to one star, as the issues are indeed too problematic for me to justify a two star rating.

The only one I'm getting to this month is The Light at Tern Rock. I quite liked it. My review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I noticed the great illustrations by Georges Schrieber, who also illustrated the group-read, Pancakes-Paris.

There seemed to be more of these large-format, short chapter, big illustration books back in the day. If it came out today, it would probably be packaged like an early reader, like Junie B. Jones.

I do like that some of these shorter books for younger readers get Newbery notice. Such a contrast to the history texts like the ABC that Gundula and I scorn.

Btw, yes, there's the 'true meaning of Christmas' in Light at Tern Rock, but I don't have the sense it proselytizes. I'm an atheist, and I quite like the book and would gladly recommend it to all audiences who want to learn what some Christians value. Consider it a 'diversity' or 'multicultural' book to go along with the ones that teach what some Muslims or some Buddhists or others value....

Cheryl wrote: "Consider it a 'diversity' or 'multicultural' book to go along with the ones that teach what some Muslims or some Buddhists or others value...."

That's a great way of looking at it, Cheryl.

Cheryl wrote: "I do like that some of these shorter books for younger readers get Newbery notice. Such a contrast to the history texts like the ABC that Gundula and I scorn."

I actually love history, but I do NOT love wrong and misleading facts, and Americans Before Columbus just annoys me.

I was surprised by how much I enjoyed .

I'm sure nits could be picked, but I really liked Turgen, and I thought the drawings just wonderful. And it's concise; a quick introduction to "northeastern Siberia." In some ways it reminded me of a previous Newbery read, ... though this was about an old man and that was about a little boy.

I loved how the villagers and their Shaman learned a lesson in Christian compassion without any vengeance or even disrespect for their traditional superstitions. And of course the wild sheep (both sexes known as 'rams' because both have horns) are wonderful.

"Everywhere there is life and everywhere there are warm human hearts."

I"m returning it to openlibrary.org right now so one of you can borrow it.

The Light at Tern Rock

Julia L. Sauer's The Light at Tern Rock (which won her a 1952 Newbery Honour designation) reminds me exceedingly sweetly and very much pleasurably of some of L.M. Montgomery's sea and lighthouse themed short stories (featuring not only an engaging and evocative narrative, but also and for me most essentially, importantly, a delightfully esoteric but still wonderfully realistic evocation of the ocean, a tenderly caressing sense of geographic place, which shows itself as both an homage to the sea, to the wildness and possible dangers of the ocean and to the lighthouse keepers, whose ever so important job it is to maintain these bastions of especially nighttime safety and protection).

Now while the general plot line of The Light at Tern Rock is pretty well predictable right from the onset of the story so to speak, in so far that we as readers do realise (and even very well know) that Byron Flagg will indeed renege on his promise and will thus not arrive back at Tern Rock on December 15th in order to again take over the lighthouse duties from Aunt Martha and Ronnie, after having read that letter, I for one, do very much and in fact feel as young Ronnie does, namely that for one, Christmas is everywhere because it is something that is spiritual and in one's heart (and for me personally, that Christmas also does not really have to be specifically Christian either, being simply a celebration of peace on earth, of love, light and life itself) and also for two, that even though Byron Flagg had reneged on his promise to get Aunt Martha and Ronnie off of Tern Rock before Christmas, he both deserves pity and also happiness, a happy and family filled Christmas, which he has never had a chance to experience. And although I still find Byron Flagg rather annoying as a character, after having read the letter, I do indeed feel sorry for him, I do indeed feel for him and his loneliness, although truth be told, I still would have preferred him to have simply asked Aunt Martha whether she might stay at the lighthouse over Christmas (although I do kind of understand in a grudging manner why he choses not to do this).

Four shining stars for The Light at Tern Rock (and I also have to say that while Georges Schreiber's accompanying illustrations are a nicely constructed, evocative visually and aesthetically pleasing decorative trim, I certainly did not all that much pay attention to them whilst reading, as for me, the text of The Light at Tern Rock, Julia L. Sauer's narrative has been pretty much everything, delightful, heartfelt, descriptive and sweet). And I especially have had to smile in appreciation at Aunt Martha's reaction to Ronnie categorically and unilaterally claiming that he will never break a promise made (namely that if he does indeed manage to do this, he will be in eternal debt to Byron Flagg).

You know, I did not actually predict the plotline of TLaTR. I found myself so immersed in story and pictures that I just rode along at the pace the author set. Lucky for me!

Cheryl wrote: "You know, I did not actually predict the plotline of TLaTR. I found myself so immersed in story and pictures that I just rode along at the pace the author set. Lucky for me!"

Yes, lucky indeed, but also, and unfortunately, I kind of suspected right away.

Well, I just realised one of the main reasons that I was kind of aware right from when I first shelved The Light at Tern Rock that Byron Flagg would play Aunt Martha and Ronnie false and not pick them up on December 15th (it was sadly stated right smack in the book description as a major and annoying spoiler). So I have edited the book description a bit, leaving the Byron Flagg scenario as a question posed.

Thank you!

Cheryl wrote: "Thank you!"

This does seem to happen at times, a bit annoying.