Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Discussion Thread for Book 7. Just got back from the mainland but I'm still heavily dilated so it's hard to post, so will just open the thread and post more tomorrow when the eyes are back to what passes for normal. But for those ready to move along now, here you are.

I am baffled by what Dostoevsky wants us to take from the "Breath of Corruption" arising from Zosima's body. Have we been fooled all along, and is Zosima not really a good man, or a good monk? Are those who see a negative sign in the odor using a natural process to validate their opposition to him? Is it a test of faith for those who believed in him? Obviously, I assume, it must be meaningful since he commits an entire chapter to it and to the conflicts over it. But what meaning?

Everyman wrote: "I am baffled by what Dostoevsky wants us to take from the "Breath of Corruption" arising from Zosima's body. Have we been fooled all along, and is Zosima not really a good man, or a good monk? Are ..."

In the minds of those (like Ferapont) who are seemingly jealous of Zosima's status as a saint capable of miracles, it is a demonstration of Zosima's mere humanity. The unbelievers rejoice in the corruption of his body, as if it elevates them to see the elder taken down a notch.

But Zosima never thought of himself as a saint. He had knowledge of worldliness, the soldier's world even, and in sending Alyosha out of the monastery to live in the world I think he emphasizes that the world is where real holy work is done. Not miracles, but "active love." So it is fitting that at the end of Book 7, Alyosha leaves the monastery to "sojourn in the world."

Everyman wrote: "I am baffled by what Dostoevsky wants us to take from the "Breath of Corruption" arising from Zosima's body... I assume, it must be meaningful since he commits an entire chapter to it and to the conflicts over it. But what meaning? "

I think it was meaningful first of all for Alyosha, and through him, for us, readers, too, if we care about this character at all. By the end of Book 7 Alyosha has changed significantly in his maturation, all due to that episode with the odor and events that followed it.

The reaction of the crowd (both in the monastery and the world) to the episode can be regarded as repulsive, stupid, vicious... but probably not more than that for us readers. However, we should keep in mind that Alyosha is still a very young person. And Zosima was probably the only person Alyosha loved.

In my opinion, at the beginning of chapter ‘An Opportune Minute’, the narrator gives us one of his best ‘monologues’ so far, trying to explain what was happening in Alyosha’s soul at that moment.
It’s worth rereading that passage closely. But I still want to drop a quick quote from there, “… And now he who, according to his hope, was to have been exalted higher than anyone in the whole world, this very man, instead of receiving the glory that was due him, was suddenly thrown down and disgraced! Why? Who had decreed it? Who could have judged so? These were the questions that immediately tormented his inexperienced and virgin heart…”

It’s interesting what the narrator adds later, “…I am glad that at such a moment my young man turned out to be not so reasonable; the time will come for an intelligent man to be reasonable, but if at such an exceptional moment there is no love to be found in a young man’s heart, then when will it come?”

Bigollo wrote: "It’s interesting what the narrator adds later, “…I am glad that at such a moment my young man turned out to be not so reasonable; the time will come for an intelligent man to be reasonable, but if at such an exceptional moment there is no love to be found in a young man’s heart, then when will it come?” ."

Thanks for quoting that passage. I had marked it also as important.

Bigollo wrote: "It’s interesting what the narrator adds later, “…I am glad that at such a moment my young man turned out to be not so reasonable; the time will come for an intelligent man to be reasonable, but if at such an exceptional moment there is no love to be found in a young man’s heart, then when will it come?”

The narrator's voice is very strong in this chapter... "I shall frankly admit..." "I would only ask the reader..." Lots of first person narration here, until Rakitin enters the scene. The overall effect is to increase the reader's concern for Alyosha.

Zossima's bodily corruption presents an issue for both his followers and his detractors. The general public or townspeople have expected a miracle because it is in keeping of what they understand Zossima to have been, a devout and Godly man. The monks at the monastery have been expecting it also, for much the same reason. The townspeople are the first to react. Dostoevsky explains it as follows:

The unbelievers rejoiced. As for the believers, some of them rejoiced more than the unbelievers for “men love the downfall and disgrace of the righteous,” as the deceased elder had said in one of his exhortations.

The narrator goes on to discuss the possibility of incorruptibility of the flesh and the fact that they have even had recent examples of such at the monastery. Such monks have been thought to have been devout and holy. It is a difficult conclusion, for them, to suggest that when the flesh corrupts so quickly, that there is not something amiss. But is this a necessity? One wonders.

But as readers, we are to make something different of all of this. We certainly see the expectation and, we may feel along with Alyosha that it does not seem fitting, perhaps, that Zossima has been such a dedicated man of God and yet becomes subject to ridicule.

The narrator continues concerning the monks:

Yet, in spite of these memories, it would be difficult to explain the absurdity and malice that were displayed beside the coffin of Father Zossima. It is my private opinion that several different causes were at work, one of which was the deeply rooted hostility to the institution of elders as an evil innovation, a hostility hidden deep in the hearts of many of the monks. Even more powerful was jealousy of the dead man's saintliness, so firmly established during his lifetime that it was almost a forbidden thing to question it. blockquote>

When the antagonism grows, there is practically chaos in the monastery and one wonders how many people still believe in the goodness of Father Zossima's life. The reader cannot help but understand that he/she has a special vantage point to have a bigg picture of it all, but at the same time, we are caught up in the emotional difficulties of such things. Why has such a thing happened so as to humiliate the memory of a man who has done so much that is good and holy in the name of God? We sit and wish to console Alyosha.

As we have been reading Zossima closely, we are not nearly as surprised as those who were there because we reason that Zossima is, above all, not someone who belongs to the lofty heavens, but to the earth, to the people, to the very soil itself: all the things that he was doing, his vision for peace, compassion and love, this sobornost belongs to the unity of people of the earth, More than anything, I think, his decomposition is exactly where he belongs... and where he has been saying that he belongs. This isn't to say that he isn't Godly, but that he has been a “hands-on saint.”

There is an additional point to be made and that is of course a comparison with the death of Christ Himself. When Christ dies, even Satan believed that he has won a great victory. It also scattered those who were his followers and it brought the real rats scurrying to the forefront to immediately disparage His memory and what He had done.

Alyosha's faith is only stunned, however, and, given the chance, he immediately falls to his natural ministering self and forgets his woes when Grushenka is weeping. Rakitin, on the other hand, has shown his true colors as a scheming toad. Perhaps there was an underlying plan in place with Zossima's bodily corruption after all.

Thomas wrote: "Lots of first person narration here, until Rakitin enters the scene.."

Yes, there is indeed. It's clear that D is very much in Alyosha's corner.

But since you raised Rakitin, I'm confused over his role in the book and why Alyosha seems to have befriended him. He seems to be a morose, generally negative person, not someone I would have thought Alyosha would have cared much for.

We are told early on that he's a divinity student why Alyosha knew "almost intimately." [Gutenberg edition pg. 40] He has been watching Alyosha for "a long time" [86] -- why? He's a negative force -- he speaks to Alyosha "malignately" [83] and "with undisguised malice" [85]. He's nosy, "He had a footing everywhere, and got information about everything," and "He was of an uneasy and envious temper." [88] Alyosha considers him "dishonorable." [89].

There's more along this vein, but all of this raises the question, what is his role, and why is Alyosha so often in his company and even sharing private information with him?

Everyman wrote: ". . .what is his [Rakitin's] role, and why is Alyosha so often in his company and even sharing private information with him?"

Rakitin's interaction with Alyosha in this book reminds me of Satan tempting of Christ, especially by his seedy motives in taking Alyosha to visit Grushenka. His pecuniary moitve of 25 rubles reminds me of 30 pieces of silver which put me in mind of betrayal. Maybe Rakitin is a combined Satan/Judas antagonist to Alyosha? The question now becomes how much is Rakitin trying to lure Alyosha to sin versus how much is he simply testing him?

Everyman wrote: "I'm confused over his role in the book and why Alyosha seems to have befriended him...He's nosy, "He had a footing everywhere, and got information about everything,"..."

That he had "information about everything" might have drawn Alyosha to him initially. Alyosha might not be the type of person who drops people they have befriended (or who have befriended them) when they are no longer useful to them, even if they begin to have a bad influence on them. I don't know if Ratikin is evil in the context of this group of characters, but he is malcontent and probably a bad influence. There are many orders of "evil" in this book. A small minded meddling busybody is hardly the worst. He will be a bad influence on Alyosha if Alyosha lets him be. If Alyosha matures, people like Rakitin will pose no threat.

Has Alyosha been judgmental of anyone in the book so far? It seems that he tolerates everyone, no matter how unsavory or immoral.

Rhonda: You're comment in the previous week's threat, with this quote, came to mind:
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

I don't suggest that D is being ironic about the decaying body, but he may have some opinion about why a mortal person would be considered more saintly if his mortal remains refuse to return to the earth. An expeditious disposal could just as easily be considered a good omen, if you think about it.

What are the more mundane reasons for a body decaying quickly or slowly? Temperature of course, but perhaps also their diet and weight? I don't know.

The unexpected fate of the elder's body also serves to illustrate the meanness of the people who took delight in it. There appears to have been more than a little jealousy of the role of an elder in this community. I'm guessing that elders are resented for being elitist - without really have the formal recognition that usually goes with elite status. He chooses his disciples - or they choose him - one way or the other it is all rather cliquish and therefore not particularly noble.

I am also reminded of T.S. Eliot's 20th century poem The Dry Savages (I bolded the lines about the body nourishing the earth).

For most of us, this is the aim
Never here to be realised;
Who are only undefeated
Because we have gone on trying;
We, content at the last
If our temporal reversion nourish
(Not too far from the yew-tree)
The life of significant soil.

If I recall correctly, Eliot was referring to the "unsaved" in these lines.

This is just something I remember from previous group discussions. I am not suggesting that the elder was nothing but flesh, nor that Alosha, the narrator, nor D himself thought so or wanted us to think so.

All I could find re the rate of decomposition, is that a person who dies with a septic wound will decompose faster...

Theresa wrote: "Rhonda: You're comment in the previous week's threat, with this quote, came to mind:
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alon..."

Your reference made me immediately reach for my Four Quartets and The Dry Salvages again. You make an extraordinarily beautiful parallel in this work, I think, not only in the lines you quote, but others too. This entire work is a remarkable work of art.

I was taken by the following

Men's curiosity searches past and future
And clings to that dimension. But to apprehend
The point of intersection of the timeless
With time, is an occupation for the saint—
No occupation either, but something given
And taken, in a lifetime's death in love,
Ardour and selflessness and self-surrender."

I cannot help but see both Zossima and Alyosha in these lines, struggling with the world, but possessing the selflessness worthy of a saint.

For me, this mirrors the quotation from John, suggesting that in being forward thinking, actively loving through God, we should be able to not complete ourselves, but pass on what we have perhaps only started.
"Who are only undefeated
Because we have gone on trying;"

I read this last section as a message of hope, a prayer to the Virgin Mary. I see it that as men are subject to daemonic influences, men will always strive in vain. Yet they will strive and in their half-realized moments of grace in daily life, there is hope. Because man does not give up on doing right actions, though man will never overcome and be entirely successful, he will prevail.

I have a recording of this and I couldn't resist listening to it. Thank you for mentioning it

This is interesting, Rhonda. The idea of overcoming forms the stuff of many theological arguments. How can we, as weak humans, overcome? We cannot. It is only through Christ acting on our behalf or through us, I believe, that any shall overcome. I think that the book (of) Revelation talks of the overcomer. Among other things the one who overcomes will receive the Crown of Life. Trying to overcome on our own, however, will necessarily lead to failure.

I feel sorry for Zossima and the tittle tattle of others even after his death. At least he can no longer be harmed by what they do or say! If his body had not decomposed many more problems might have ensued. For example, the young Bernadette's remains (Saint) did not decompose very quickly. It is difficult to work out the natural reasons for such an event, but undoubtedly there are some. Unfortunately, this led to a scam carried out by overzealous followers. They adorned her face with some sort of mask and made it up to look like her real
face., so I have read at any rate. Human beings often want to cling to the supernatural even where it may not be in evidence. This can, on occasion, lead to bogus pilgrimages based on the miraculous events surrounding a particular person or persons. Better then that bodies decay. Theresa? helped me to consider this in a different way by suggesting that decomposition can be just as saintly an occurrence, following, as it does, the natural processes.

David wrote: "Rakitin's interaction with Alyosha in this book reminds me of Satan tempting of Christ, especially by his seedy motives in taking Alyosha to visit Grushenka. His pecuniary moitve of 25 rubles reminds me of 30 pieces of silver which put me in mind of betrayal. Maybe Rakitin is a combined Satan/Judas antagonist to Alyosha? ."

That makes a lot of sense, though I'm reluctant to see Alyosha as too much a Christ stand-in figure. But clearly he does represent the role of faith in the book, as Ivan does the role of intellect. But isn't it interesting that, in your interpretation, the role of Satan/Judas is played by a divinity student? But then, if we follow Milton, Satan was originally an angel.

Theresa wrote: "I don't know if Ratikin is evil in the context of this group of characters, but he is malcontent and probably a bad influence. ."

Is it evil to try to tempt Alyosha, in a moment of spiritual crisis, to abandon principles of his faith?

The passage [at Gutenberg 378]

“Can you really be so upset simply because your old man has begun to stink? You don't mean to say you seriously believed that he was going to work miracles?” exclaimed Rakitin, genuinely surprised again.

“I believed, I believe, I want to believe, and I will believe, what more do you want?” cried Alyosha irritably."

Reminded me powerfully of Mark 9:24, "And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."

Alyosha seems to be wrestling with the same internal questioning, the desperate wanting to believe but somehow finding it enormously challenging to do so fully and unreservedly.

Rhonda wrote: "I have a recording of this and I couldn't resist listening to it. Thank you for mentioning it ,..." I often go for walks along the river in the evening and listen to Eliot read his Four Quartets. Many of the works we discuss in this group don't fully resonate with me until months or years later. Oftentimes something in a different book discussion will resonate with something we discussed in an earlier book discussion. Of course this also happens when I read alone, but, I think, my memory is not so often stirred.

Everyman wrote: "Theresa wrote: "I don't know if Ratikin is evil in the context of this group of characters, but he is malcontent and probably a bad influence. ."

Is it evil to try to tempt Alyosha, in a moment of..."

Well there is evil and there is evil. In the context of this group of characters is he the worst? It would seem that sometimes, though not necessarily always, faith gets renewed through testing. I tend to think of evil (if I think about it at all) as more a process working in the world than as a quality acted out through specific individuals playing the role of Satan.
For example, there was some incredible evil at work that led some of the WWII allied soldiers, while marching across Europe toward the end of the war, to give candy bars to the starving children they encountered. Of course the candy bars killed them. But who was to blame? Hitler? yes of course, but there were other processes that are evil that work on their own somehow through the sincere desire to do good. The children die, the men lose their faith. Though there is no person standing in for the devil, nor even a group of people who can be suitably blamed or demonized, the process of evil is alive in the world and working at someone's undoing. Trying to localize evil into one person or "other" peoples or genders just leads you further down the garden path. I am not convinced that a person playing the role of the "one who tests" is the same as embodying evil. Anyway, I am more interested in invisible evils. For example, there are processes in global capitalism (and no doubt communism, which isn't a particular active threat at the moment) and especially the marriage of capitalism with patriarchy that has created an "anti-life" monster equal to anything in ancient mythology.

Anyway, I find monsters more interesting than satanic characters who test their victims faith. Whether the monster is visible or not, it seems to always be an unholy combination of two or more benign forces that then takes on an uncontrollable life of its own that consumes everything around it. I am almost finished the book, and without saying more in that regard, I have taken an interest in watching for the processes of evil to unfold on their own. I find it more interesting than trying to pin blame on individual characters.

I am probably going to have to unpack that statement about capitalism/patriarchy, as it will no doubt elicit eyerolls. It is off topic, but I was just referring to situations in the process of globalization, in which a corporation moves into the area of a small village or town and usurps the otherwise life-giving patriarchal culture that exists. Effectively, in the company town, the company becomes "the man" as it were. But as an unfeeling, non-human authority, it cares little about the lives of the people it supports (unlike the human male patriarch in a family or community). I hope that helps explain it. It was just an example of what I consider to be an evil non-human "monster" process. I am sure others can think of other processes that "undo" people and cultures.

As i just mentioned in response to a comment in the book 5 discussion, I believe the Karamazov family itself is an evil force/dynamic that is working to un-do the lives and souls of its members. Alyosha seems fully aware of himself as a member of this group and therefore, he is a party to the process.

I am not suggesting that family itself, is inherently evil, but sometimes the dynamic of evil uses our institutions (as well as our individual humans) to destroy us (or to allow us to destroy ourselves via our continuing participation in that group).

I actually prefer to think of this as pathological rather than evil. Pathological things generally depend on a viscous circle of reinforcing and destructive events.

I found the expectation that Zossima's body wouldn't decompose a bit foolish, especially by a monastic community. God does not perform miracles on demand. Yet they expected it. Why?Credulity? Envy of Zossima? Both seem to be at work, the baser human characteristics coming to the forefront.

It is as if Dostoevsky inserted a bit of spiritual warfare here. For those solidly grounded in their faith, whether or not the body decomposes is immaterial. It is those without a firm foundation who are swayed. In the middle of it, Alyosha. Then Rakitin appears as the tempter. He's been looking for Alyosha for two hours, underscoring how deliberate he is in searching out the disciple of Zossima at the point when he is mentally at his weakest. He suggests to go to Grushenka's - another temptress - and they go. Temptations always start with the most basic, the body, food and pleasure.

“Let's go to Grushenka,” Alyosha answered calmly, at once, and this prompt and calm agreement was such a surprise to Rakitin that he almost started back. “Well! I say!” he cried in amazement, but seizing Alyosha firmly by the arm he led him along the path, still dreading that he would change his mind.

Even Rakitin is surprised that is was this easy. He has ulterior motives, as all tempters do:

His object in this case was twofold, first a revengeful desire to see “the downfall of the righteous,” and Alyosha's fall “from the saints to the sinners,” over which he was already gloating in his imagination, and in the second place he had in view a certain material gain for himself, of which more will be said later.

When they enter Grushenka's she is delighted, but Rakitin does frighten her.

“Ah, it's you, Rakitin? You quite frightened me. Whom have you brought? Who is this with you? Good heavens, you have brought him!” she exclaimed, recognizing Alyosha.

Things though do turn unexpectedly, which catch Rakitin completely by surprise.

Alyosha, "I came here seeking my ruin, and said to myself, ‘What does it matter?’ in my cowardliness, but she, after five years in torment, as soon as any one says a word from the heart to her— it makes her forget everything, forgive everything, in her tears!...She is more loving than we...This soul is not yet at peace with itself, one must be tender with it ... there may be a treasure in that soul....”

This affirmation of Grushenka's inner goodness brings her to tears. Perhaps she herself hadn't seen it given the downward spiral she's been on. And Alyosha, by his inability to take advantage of another person and seeing in Grushenka a person, not just an object, doesn't fall from grace.

Rakitin is disgusted, he knows he lost.

“Damnation take you all and each of you!” he cried suddenly, “why the devil did I take you up? I don't want to know you from this time forward. Go alone, there's your road!”