Women's Classic Literature Enthusiasts discussion

This thread is for discussion of chapters X-XVII.

The scenes with Mary seem the most real to me--Mary sort of grounds the interactions. "She seemed a compound of the autumn leaves and the winter sunshine; less poetically speaking, she showed both gentleness and strength.." Mary, and I as a reader, really wonder why Katharine agreed to marry William Rodney! He is arrogant, insufferable, and boring all at the same time. He says "What do you women want with learning...? Leave us something, eh, Katharine?"

Yes, William certainly seems rather pompous doesn't he? I find Mary to be the most relatable character in the book. She is much more down to earth than the others, perhaps as a result of her "working" (albeit in a voluntary unpaid role)

I am truly enjoying this book, although sometimes it may hit a little close to home in a variety of aspects. Her writing of thoughts and emotions really causes me to think about things. It seems to me that Katharine's mother is not happy in her marriage, and that is the cause of her mental wanderings. It seems Katharine wants to get married, but is conflicted about what the end result of such a prospect should be expected to be. It seems she would like it to be a happy thing, but when she looks at the women around her, I think she wonders if that is not necessarily what to expect. While observing her mother and her aunt, the narrator writes, "Both these elderly women seemed to her to have been so content with so little happiness, and at the moment she had not sufficient force to feel certain that their version of marriage was the wrong one." Yes, I think Katharine wants to be married, but happily, with the knowledge that she will be able to stay true to herself at the same time. After all, she really likes mathematics. I can relate - I was always better at math than at literature in high school.

As the back of my copy of the book says, the book poses "crucial questions about women, intellectual freedom, and marriage." I find that Mary has some ponderings of her own concerning how love and marriage are to feel and be. In one scene, we find Mary sitting alone with her thoughts after Ralph has left. The narrator writes, "If love is a devastating fire which melts the whole being..., Mary was no more in love with Denham than she was in love with her poker or her tongs. But probably these extreme passions are very rare..."

Let us hope we find love that transcends our love of poker or tongs, because I cannot say I truly love my poker or my tongs. :)

In Chapter X, Katharine passes Ralph without seeing him, absorbed in pondering the lines from The Idiot: "It's life that matters, nothing but life--the process of discovering--the everlasting and perpetual process, not the discovery itself at all." In the introduction to my edition, Julia Briggs says that Virginia Woolf considered Fyodor Dostoyevsky "the greatest writer ever born". Katharine claims to hate books, yet she is completely intrigued by this concept, contrasting it with the ideas that the important things are accomplishments--marriage, for one.

Ah love, who loves what here? Katharine loves math and science, and all she wants is the freedom to pursue it. Yet to engage herself to a poet, who doesn't seem to even allow her the freedom to think for herself, who wants her to constantly talk about her feelings, is so clearly not what she needs. Yet she can't help but feel that her only chance at a full life lies through marriage. (Like Charlotte Lucas in Pride and Prejudice: http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-t... .)

And then Ralph, who imagines he's in love with some fictional image of Katharine he's created, yet who truly seems to value his friendship with Mary much more. If only his eyes could be opened to just how much she means to him!

And Mary, isn't she just wonderful?!

Ginny wrote: "In Chapter X, Katharine passes Ralph without seeing him, absorbed in pondering the lines from The Idiot: "It's life that matters, nothing but life--the process of discovering--the ever..."

This is so interesting, Ginny. I was just listening to an audiobook about the English Novel, and there was discussion of how at the end of the 1800's there was no English novel that comes close to uncovering the human soul the way Dostoyevsky does, and what Proust was doing in France and also American authors and how novels were changing.

Makes me think Woolf realized this, and had her character Katharine be bored by the writing that came before (that considered marriage an accomplishment as you say), but excited by these "new" ideas.

And about Mary, I love how that one chapter ended with her wondering about noticing something Ralph and Katharine had in common, "this thing they cared for and didn't want to talk about--oh, what was it?"

Sorry everyone I've got to the end of Chapter XVI & I'm going to bail out here!

This probably wasn't the right Woolf to start with. The writing is very similar to my beloved Katherine Mansfield & I think it is more suited to the short story or novella format.

Next I will try one of Woolf's more famous works - but not for a couple of months!

Carol - I think I agree with you that this would be better in a shorter format. Perhaps it's with good reason that this didn't become one of Woolf's better known novels?

Sorry you aren't enjoying it Carol! One of the things that most appealed to me was how dense it was - so I'm sort of lost at the concept of this as a short story - an afternoon in Katharine's life? In many ways this is quite a conventional novel - my understanding of Woolf is that her later writing just gets more and more experimental. (And therefore odd, and weird, and hard to read?)

Alexa wrote: "Sorry you aren't enjoying it Carol! One of the things that most appealed to me was how dense it was - so I'm sort of lost at the concept of this as a short story - an afternoon in Katharine's life?..."

Not so much the subject matter as Woolf's style I think.

Mansfield was always a short story writer but did intend to write a novel. This book makes me thankful that she didn't.

Doesn't mean I won't like her more well known works. :)

This is exactly how I feel about it, Alexa. I enjoy everything by Woolf, but this is just so much easier to read and get into. I find lots of subtlety in here that appears the more we get to know the characters, so I don't think I'd like it as a short story.

I am all for stopping a book you aren't enjoying though Carol, so onto something you like better!

And perhaps as her novels get more experimental you'll find the style changing? Sorry it was so jarring for you!

Kathleen wrote: "This is exactly how I feel about it, Alexa. I enjoy everything by Woolf, but this is just so much easier to read and get into. I find lots of subtlety in here that appears the more we get to know t..."

Yes, I just thoroughly enjoyed how I could simultaneously enjoy this on the most superficial level, just for the plot itself, and yet see all this underlying depth that I could enjoy as I chose.

I have read two or three of Woolf's novels many years ago, and don't remember much, but I am thoroughly enjoying the story line, the unusual (sometimes almost shockingly so) imagery, and the angst-filled courtships of these young people. For all of them, men and women, the future is expected to be marriage and children, but they are all questioning this.

In Ch. XV, we meet Mary's family. So interesting that the daughters are Mary and Elizabeth. Or maybe that was just so common in England at the time. I have finished watching "The Crown", (new netflix series) with Marys and Elizabeths all over the place. This family appears all innocence and sincerity compared with Ralph's gloomy, angst-filled sophistication.

Then in Ch. XVI, we meet Katharine among her cousins, and they make her realize something is missing in her relationship with Rodney. Rodney realizes that Katharine will never fit into the role of obedient wife, mother, and housekeeper that he has chosen her for.

And in Ch. XVII, we learn what the matrons think about marriage.

"Well, I really don't advise a woman who wants to have things her own way to get married..."
"But in the ordinary marriage, is it necessary to give way to one's husband?"
"I should say yes, certainly." "Most women know by instinct whether they can give it or not. And if not---well then, my advice would be--don't marry."

Within the format of the classic marriage plot, there are many positively subversive ideas. I am fascinated.

Yes, all sorts of revolutionary undertones!