Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion
Other Challenges Archive
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Nente's 2017 Old or New, but New-to-me
Marking the progress here.11/14
Old School (1899 and earlier)
✔ - 1. The Tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu (1021) ★★★★★ read 27.03
2. Orlando Furioso by Ludovico Ariosto (1532)
✔ - 3. Madame Bovary by Gustave Flaubert (1856) ★★ read 27.03
New School (1900–1999)
✔ - 4. Black Lamb and Grey Falcon by Rebecca West (1941) ★★★★★ read 20.11, review
✔ - 5. Los árboles mueren de pie by Alejandro Casona (1959) ★★★★ read 29.04
6. The Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner (1929)
My Wild Card Six
✔ - 7. The Remains of the Day by Kazuo Ishiguro (1989) ★★★★★ read 05.01, review
✔ - 8. Hateship, Friendship, Courtship, Loveship, Marriage: Stories by Alice Munro (2001) ★★ read 24.10, review
✔ - 9. Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell by Susanna Clarke (2004) ★★★★★ read 28.01
✔ - 10. Иностранка by Sergei Dovlatov (1986) ★★★ read 12.08
✔ - 11. The King of Elfland's Daughter by Lord Dunsany (1924) ★★★★★ read 20.01, review
✔ - 12. Contact by Carl Sagan (1985) ★ read 07.06, review
Alternates
✔ - A1. Père Goriot by Honoré de Balzac (1834) ★★ read 18.06
A2. Москва — Петушки by Venedikt Erofeev (1969)
I know I've got some mammoth books here! Otherwise, though, I'm happy to know little about a book when going in, because so often recommendations only puff it up needlessly, and blurbs mislead or spoiler. More surprises, that's the order of the year.
I really liked Jonathan Strange. It's a little slow, but very good regardless.
I also have A Tale of Genji in my lineup. Loved Jonathan Strange...
I'm another one wanting to read The Tale of Genji, but maybe not in 2017...Good luck with all of your choices!
The Black Lamb and Grey Falcon sounds wonderful. Have never heard of it before. Added it to my TBR pile.
Finished The Remains of the Day. What a great start to the challenge!
just realised we have quite a bit of overlap this yearI'm down for Madame Bovary and Pere Goriot and also Faulkner and Ishiguro (albeit different titles)
also, I read Moscow Stations last year (superb)
and Thankyou for bringing Dovlatov to my attention - just done a bit of research and ended up buying Pushkin Hills off Amazon!
:oD
Sorry Darren, missed your comment =( are the GR notifications playing up again?Finished The King of Elfland's Daughter. Quite unbelievably good.
One of the popular reviewers here on GR includes this book in his must-read fantasy list, and he is perfectly justified. I'll get back here with a review, when there's time enough.
Nente wrote: "Finished The King of Elfland's Daughter. Quite unbelievably good.
One of the popular reviewers here on ..."
Oh yes, isn't it just! That was one of my favourite reads last year. I should add some Dunsany to my reading list this year as well. Have you read any of his short stories? I recommend A Dreamer's Tales. You can find it on Project Gutenberg.
Leni, I'm actually wary of reading any more Dunsany - what if it's not that good? I need the impression to soften a bit.Added review links to the second post.
Nente wrote: "Leni, I'm actually wary of reading any more Dunsany - what if it's not that good? I need the impression to soften a bit.Added review links to the second post."
Well, yes. The man had an insane output. He wrote a lot. A LOT. Not all of it can be as good. I started reading The Gods of Pegana but found it was all world building and no story. It was a huge influence on Tolkien and Lovecraft, but now that we have Tolkien and Lovecraft it becomes something that we've already seen integrated in actual storytelling. I am, however, pretty sure you won't be disappointed with A Dreamer's Tales. Letting the impression soften a bit is probably still a good idea. You could overdose on Dunsany. Every sentence he writes is a rich vintage. But when the need comes over you, and you feel a longing for something that you cannot quite put your finger on until you suddenly realise that the longing has a name, and that the name is Dunsany, then you know which book to pick up. ;)
Done with Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell. Loved it definitely, but I need to think more for a review or in any way connected opinion. In any case, it's impressively well written. Can it really be a debut novel? Perhaps Susanna Clarke did academic/journalistic/some other sort of writing for years before starting on fiction? (I'm trying not to read up on her right now, because I want to formulate my own opinion and am unfortunately susceptible to criticism.)
The language is stylistically impeccable, not a single word rings false in connection with the time period. In fact I caught several direct quotations from Jane Austen! Nothing important, just some phrases out of her novels incorporated into this one to apply to similar situations or persons. And had I known some other 1800's novels as well as I do Austen's I'd probably notice more of that sort of thing.
I missed the Jane Austen references! But Clarke has listed Austen as an influence. And, without giving you my opinion on the book at all, I'll just say that the book apparently took a decade to write and I think she was in her late 30s when she started. So I suppose she gained writing experience in the process.
"Miss Gray. A smart, stylish girl, but not handsome" is the one that just struck me between the eyes, me having reread Sense & Sensibility not long ago (is it ever long ago with me, I wonder?) - but the Miss Gray in question is a walk-through character brought in to illustrate a point, not an heiress stealing the romantic interest away.
There is a TV-adaptation (6 or so episodes) that you might want to check out. It came out last year, I think. They've made some alterations of course, and they've done some things very well and other things I disliked, but it's well worth watching.
Thanks Leni, I'll probably try. I do hope they didn't overuse the special effects though... There should be a lot of mystery to magic in this one, as the magicians don't seem to understand it themselves sometimes =)
It's done in best BBC tradition. Although obviously some special effects are needed. :) And Eddy Marsan is spot on as Mr. Norrell.
What, I've only been doing wildcards? Started The Tale of Genji a couple of days ago, so there.It lies at the roots of Japanese classical literature, but it's very obvious from the start that it draws on a rich (mostly poetic) literary tradition itself. In fact the characters, who are exclusively of the nobility, talk in poetry composed on the spur of the moment, references to the well-known poets, and only in the third place in their own words.
Sound challenging? Incredibly it's not, it reads very easily, and the only obstacle to easy understanding I find is the non-usage of personal names. Apparently that was seen as rude. So the characters are referred to by their position at court, their place of abode, or even the favourite colour they wore. And considering that the novel spans Genji's entire lifetime and beyond, these attributes do change. The Emperor becomes the retired Emperor, his son becomes the Emperor; the lady concubine becomes the lady wife, mother of an heir, then the priestess of something or other. Thankfully my edition has a sort of dramatis personae at the start of each chapter.
More about my edition. I'm reading the Russian translation, naturally, and I find it has taken the lady translator almost as much time to translate as the lady writer spent in writing. You see: the no-name-calling is getting to me! The translator is Tatiana Sokolova-Delyusina, as in our culture it's polite rather to give credit where credit's due. And in this case the credit is enormous: besides the translation, there are mountains of footnotes and an appendix on everything from the ritual dress required at court to Japanese folk songs which are sometimes alluded to. The notes are invaluable, but I confess I'm often too lazy to use the appendix.
Nente wrote: "What, I've only been doing wildcards? Started The Tale of Genji a couple of days ago, so there.It lies at the roots of Japanese classical literature, but it's very obvious from the start that it ..."
Good to hear it reads easily! I have been wanting to check that one out and wondered how challenging of a read it might be.
Great information, Nente. When I get around to tackling this, I will make sure I have a good translation with good notes (and then I too will probably be too lazy to read them all!). It does sound interesting--hope you keep enjoying it.
Good to hear of all the interest =)I expect this one doesn't really need spoiler tags, does it? People surely don't read it for the plot.
I'm almost finishing book 1 in my version which has 4 books, about at the time where Genji's youth ends and maturity, with all the government duties and power, begins.
At first glance it seems that this first part was a Japanese Memoirs of Giacomo Casanova, but once you look past all the bedhopping (which is, obviously, never described in any detail greater than "Genji walked past the screen to where the lady sat") there are crucial differences.
For one thing, Genji continues to care, both financially and emotionally, for almost all the women he ever got interested in, unless they found another male patron or went into religious retirement.
For another, polygamy is an absolutely accepted thing among the Heian period nobility. Certainly for males, especially in the royal line which needs heirs; but females aren't criticised either, unless they flout their affairs - so it's the matter of taste and manners, not morality.
And finally, the aristocratic women have really no provision for themselves unless they are under male protection (this is 10th century we're talking about, folks), and it's refreshingly straightforward the way they are trying to recommend themselves to someone by sending them poetry, fluttering the sleeve edges from behind the curtain, etc. I know, scandalous! Actually seeing the lady is frequently impossible even after the man spent the night with her, and Genji is frequently reduced to illicit peeking.
That made me laugh. The idea that a man can be physically intimate with, and financially responsible for a woman but never actually get to see more than her fluttering sleeves. It's like one of those fairytales where lightning a candle in the night, so you can see your mysterious lover, brings a curse down upon you both.
Oh it's also mentioned several times that the commoners are unlikely to see the faces of noble men as well as women - they are travelling in coaches, and at home screens and curtains abound.
gaaah! this is too tempting! I've got a PDF of the Tale of Genji staring at me from my flash-stick...I really haven't got room in my schedule for this right now... but think I might start "serial reading" it - just sneaking in a few pages per day... ;o)
The Tale of Genji does sound very tempting...
Hehehehe! I'm taking a break from it at the moment, because I'm sure I've arrived at a logical place to do it - but I'll be back to tease you some more.Meanwhile, expanding my TBR, I found another Japanese female writer to read: Fumiko Enchi, I'll probably try The Waiting Years when I'm a little more clear.
right! what the heck!I've caved and moved Genji to currently-reading! :oD
I will be strict wrt just reading a few pages per day though, so as not to interfere tooo much with my scheduled reading (grits teeth)
Thanks Nente! ;o)
Well I've requested The Tale of Genji on serial reader, so I'm hoping they add it there, in which case I might join in for a very slow readalong! Nente, I have The Waiting Years on my tbr but haven't read anything by her yet.
I found her out by the fact that she's one of the modern translators of The Tale of Genji into... Japanese! Apparently it was written in "court language" which was quite different from what the commoners spoke, and became mutually incomprehensible with common Japanese just in a century or two.
Oh that's interesting, I have no idea where I heard of her, but I'm intrigued to try something.
Genji is back! Well, he is: back in the capital, returned from the exile, and more powerful in the world than ever. This is exactly the moment when the Emperors have just lost all but priestly and ceremonial functions, and have almost nothing to do with the state government (they order the rituals when things are going wrong, sure). The government is in the hands of regent and ministers. And so, Genji is one of the important ministers now.
However, as the author is reluctant to mention things she didn't know about firsthand, we don't get any politics or that sort of thing.
Instead, the increasingly complex politics of his own household are related. By this time, he's built himself a many-pavilioned house and installed various women in various parts of it. I'll stress again that this was seen as praiseworthy, not vicious, conduct. In any case he has no sexual relations with more than half of the women living in his house on his bounty: there's a former lover who is now on the Way of Buddha (spends her days in reading sutras and praying); another former lover who's never been especially attractive to him and towards whom he's always felt only pity; a daughter of a woman he loved by another man, who has no other means of support; etc.
However, there are several lovers still, and although there is very clearly the most important one, his wife Murasaki (whose flower (nick-)name the author has all but adopted, as The Tale became famous) - she has enough causes for jealousy, now and then, to prevent her life being an absolute earthly paradise. She has also no children... and though her feelings about that are only faintly touched upon, enough is said to indicate their depth.
And by the way, The Tale of Genji seems not to have been called that by its author. The original and the first copies are all lost; however, the researchers suspect that the original title was The Tale of Murasaki. That would be very apt, even if she isn't present in every chapter.
LOL! I don't have time for this book now, but you tempt me so! At least I can experience the highlights vicariously.
Wow! I just got to a place where the young ladies are reading monogatari (exactly like Genji-monogatari was read), and Genji walks in and says, "why should you waste your time on these tales that have little to do with reality".Well, if that isn't exactly in parallel with Austen's "I thought gentlemen despised novels amazingly"!
Didn't update the page Leni, so missed your comment.I couldn't possibly read this in silence, and this is by far the best place to post: the progress updates have a pitifully meagre character limit.
Leni wrote: "LOL! I don't have time for this book now, but you tempt me so! At least I can experience the highlights vicariously."Same here!
I've just finished Chapter 2 "The Broom Tree" which culminates in Genji (view spoiler) - it's certainly got more going on in it than I imagined!4.6% way through now ;o)
I don't get a way of calculating percentage - four volumes with different page counts =(
Now this middle-aged Japanese court lady is absolutely making me blush.But perhaps, we should not compare women's beauty with flowers' beauty; after all, flowers have some unpleasant features too, only think of those hairy stamens...
I have 63 chapters as separate PDF's(!) but easy to calculate % completed by dividing total file sizes ;o)
Pink wrote: "Leni wrote: "LOL! I don't have time for this book now, but you tempt me so! At least I can experience the highlights vicariously."Same here!"
Me too. You are making this too fun not to follow your progress, Nente!
Why thank you! =^_^=It so happens that I'm here to add another one.
I've just gone on to the "descendant" chapters: both Genji and Murasaki gone, the story jumps one generation to follow his grandchildren. So it's time to pause and think.
What I'm thinking about is how much of it all is artificial. A great deal of feelings the characters express are not actually their real feelings, but a pose: conventional, required by polite manners and respect to the others, but still purely pose, not fooling anyone - including even the reader in this advanced age, because the author is really gifted at showing the underlying emotions without ever putting them into direct contradiction with the polite words.
The exaggerated sensitivity and the copious weeping was expected, of men as well as women. A good third part of all the verses the characters exchange in the course of the novel will include a mention of sleeves wet through (with tears, it is implied, though the poetic imagery will involve sea waves, dew falling, etc.).
In those verses, as well as in actual conversations, lamenting the fickleness and cruelty of the loved/courted one was absolutely required, even in the very first stages of courtship when no promises of love and fidelity had yet been given.
The belittling of one's intellect and possessions, the expressed unwillingness to do anything with pomp was also required. Whether there was any unwillingness in fact, Murasaki leaves us to judge - after wisely commenting that, as Genji was so highly-born and highly-connected, how could he possibly disappoint everyone in luxury and elegance of his ceremonies and parties?
Almost every character, sooner or later, talks of their being so tired of this world and its vicissitudes (yeah, after living in pampered luxury, waited upon by scores of people during their whole lives), that they would gladly renounce the world at once, if it weren't for... [insert the reference to the loved ones and children it would be too difficult to leave to fend for themselves] Renouncing the world, by the way, means for them to dedicate the rest of their days to Buddha, taking the Buddhist monk vows either in an abridged form or in full.
And so, if it is all, or mostly, artificial, what do we find here? An unbelievable wealth of repressed emotion and passions under the smooth surface, which really does make The Tale a psychological novel of no mean order. If all emotion is exaggerated when the characters tell us about it themselves, why, then we won't get told when it is really great and grievous, and this reserve in expression is more impressive against the flowery background. (view spoiler)
Nice analysis! Is it possible to discern any genuine emotion or act by reading between the lines? Or is the pressure of convention such that it doesn't occur to anyone that it might be possible to feel differently? Are the characters such consummate actors that they manage to convince themselves that they are in fact feeling what they are outwardly portraying?
Oh no, they do feel differently. The greater part of their interaction with each other is via letters, and when they are actually talking together it's almost always through a screen, so you generally have time to think over your answer and don't need to control facial expression.Murasaki sometimes states their feelings in author narration, but very briefly, and you need to give far more weight to the author's words than to the characters' words, to be closer to the truth.
Uh, unfortunately the descendant chapters don't hold my attention as well as the main body of the novel. I've actually caught myself skimming. Some researchers consider those chapters to be a later addition by someone else, such as Murasaki's own daughter, who was known as a poetess. I cannot pinpoint it, but there is indeed a certain feel to them different from the Genji&Murasaki part.
Probably need a break.
Done! I've decided not to count the "descendant" chapters as part of the Tale at all - so full five stars. This last part has a more modern feel to the narrative, less rambling and perhaps more tightly plotted - but nevertheless for me it read much worse than the main, Genji/Murasaki part. It also ends almost in the middle of the sentence, so bound to exasperate. I'm not inclined to think that this was the intended ending (which apparently some critics do), but rather suppose that the final part was lost.
Meanwhile started Madame Bovary, though I don't expect to like it at all: I'm over-read in the way of English literature and so naturally unlikely to appreciate the French.
Nente wrote: "Meanwhile started Madame Bovary, though I don't expect to like it at all: I'm over-read in the way of English literature and so naturally unlikely to appreciate the French."Haha! That's just how I felt when I read Indiana by George Sand. It's the 19th Century, but different... and the style is all wrong!
I loved Jules Verne and Alexander Dumas as a child. That was before I had read a great amount of English literature. I wonder if my reading over the years will have spoiled them for me if I read them again now. :-/
In the last three or four years I've proved myself unable to really like Stendhal, Voltaire, Maupassant and Dumas fils. Only Zola might be an exception: I liked one of two by him.
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
Books mentioned in this topic
Black Lamb and Grey Falcon (other topics)Territorio comanche (other topics)
Hateship, Friendship, Courtship, Loveship, Marriage: Stories (other topics)
A Foreign Woman (other topics)
Père Goriot (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
William Trevor (other topics)Fumiko Enchi (other topics)
Rebecca West (other topics)
Ludovico Ariosto (other topics)
Alejandro Casona (other topics)
More...
Old School (1899 and earlier)
1. The Tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu (1021)
2. Orlando Furioso by Ludovico Ariosto (1532)
3. Madame Bovary by Gustave Flaubert (1856)
New School (1900–1999)
4. Black Lamb and Grey Falcon by Rebecca West (1941)
5. Los árboles mueren de pie by Alejandro Casona (1959)
6. The Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner (1929)
My Wild Card Six
7. The Remains of the Day by Kazuo Ishiguro (1989)
8. Hateship, Friendship, Courtship, Loveship, Marriage: Stories by Alice Munro (2001)
9. Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell by Susanna Clarke (2004)
10. Иностранка by Sergei Dovlatov (1986)
11. The King of Elfland's Daughter by Lord Dunsany (1924)
12. Contact by Carl Sagan (1985)
Alternates
A1. Père Goriot by Honoré de Balzac (1834)
A2. Москва — Петушки by Venedikt Erofeev (1969)