James Joyce Reading Group discussion
Finnegans Wake
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Finnegans Wake: Reading for the first time
You probably need a guide book. I would recommend Joseph Campbell for the guide book, just to keep you oriented. Part of Wake's subject matter is layers of consciousness--by its nature it is more disorienting than anything you've read (and I've read Pynchon and William S, Burrough's cutups).I am part of a "close reading" book club that is going through Finnegans Wake. Our blog (with other Wake links) may be found here:
http://finniganswakesantacruz.blogspo...
Here's a couple of reviews you might find helpful:
Ed Smiley's Reviews > Finnegans Wake
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Ed Smiley's Reviews > Joyce's Book of the Dark: Finnegans Wake
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Wow thanks so much Ed! I read both your reviews, and definitely appreciate your insight into the Wake. I had known most of the themes of the book (albeit on a superficial level, somewhat derived from Richard Ellmann's critical views in the Joyce biography), and had started in on a few select passages beforehand. I'll definitely consider all the books that you've mentioned since you seem to know Joyce pretty well. And I'll try and follow that blog as well!
Andrew wrote: "Wow thanks so much Ed! I read both your reviews, and definitely appreciate your insight into the Wake. I had known most of the themes of the book (albeit on a superficial level, somewhat derived f..."More than welcome, Andrew, I love it when I can be of help to new explorers of that infinite and inexhaustible creation.
I have to say I am also grateful for these links. I think I have Campbell's book at home. I have yet to actually tackle FW but hope to one day!
Mod
Phillip wrote: "for the most succinct and valuable words on FW, i always say start with anthony burgess' RE:JOYCE .... a study of all things JJ. there is a chapter on the wake, and it's a great introduction to get..." I would add that RE:JOYCE gives you Anthony Burgess' "take" on both FW and Ulysses. If that seems to be an overload in its own right, then I suggest "A Shorter Finnegans Wake" which is edited by Burgess. How can anyone dare to reduce FW down to a text roughly one-third of its original length? As Burgess himself states, FW "...is one of the few books of the world that totally resist cutting. Despite its bulk, it contains not one word too many, and there is the danger that to pull at a single thread will unravel the entire fabric." Only a master story teller like Burgess should attempt such a reduction, and I think it succeeds.
Is that the same Burgess of "A Clockwork Orange" fame?
Michelle wrote: "Is that the same Burgess of "A Clockwork Orange" fame?"Correct.
Mod
yes, indeed. the language in A CLOCKWORK ORANGE is deeply influenced by the joyce of FW, as you will read in burgess' study.
Hi there. I am an M.A graduate of English Literature from Iran.since my bachelor I was always fascinated with FW. I wrote my thesis on FW. It's been more than 2 years now.
I believe after such a long time, I need to read it again for the 1st time. I am also planning to translate this work of art into Persian, since there has not been any translations for it.
I welcome every help and comments.
thanks guys.
A very ambitious project. I wish someone would translate Finnegans Wake into English! Just kidding. I like it the way it is: incomprehensible. - )
Finnigans Wake is in the truest form of English before the Grammar Nazis and even the Spelling Police got a hold of it!!!
I read it once without aids and didn't understand any of it. I'm rereading with the McHugh and the Tindall at a rate of a page, then a 500 page regular book, another page, then another 500 page regular book...
I've read Finnegans Wake at least half a dozen times and still have nothing but vague and foggy ideas about it.I have McHugh, Tindall, Bishop, and Campbell; and they were no help for me at all.
Humorously, I have thought that if I took all 627 pages out of their binding and scattered them in the wind and then recollected and rebound the whole mess that it wouldn't make any difference in my ability to comprehend it!
On the other hand, I did spend 3 or 4 years reading and re-reading and studying this silly book, and at times, extremely frustrated, asked myself why I bothered. The answer, simply, is because I love Joyce! I love the way he writes; and though I could not explain a single page to myself or anyone else I have a 1000 pages of notes and journal entries - mostly citation - that show how much there is that I find so wonderful in this dreadful book.
"It is their segnal for old Champelysied to seek the shades of his retirement and for young Chappielassies to tear around and tease their partners lovesoftfun at Finnegan's Wake." (607)
As far as I have been able to ascertain this is the only time in the book where he uses an apostrophe 's'. But of course I don't know why.
Finnegan's Wake." (607)As far as I have been able to ascertain this is the only time in the book where he uses an apostrophe 's'. But of course I don't know why.
I guess it's because here he has to differentiate between his title and the song Finnegan's Wake. Interesting, though, and I've not noticed that line... but then I wouldn't have. I'm not as dedicated as you to this 'silly book'. My approach is still, over 40 years on from first buying it, to open it anywhere and get bored with it till I find a few pages that are magic. You have great dedication. Have you thought of putting some of your notes out there online, somewhere? I think there are no 'expert' opinions on Finnegans Wake, just the opinions of those who read it and, for moments or for years, know it, in their own way.
Hey Nick - nice to hear from you, and thank you for the complement. I understand your approach, I've used it quite often myself. I do entertain fantasies of making some sort of contribution to Joyce scholarship, but I may be to lazy to ever get there.I like to "translate" wake a bit differently. Rather than, to come out of sleep, or, the vigil over the corpse, I like the Anglican Ch.'s, an annual parish festival (or fair). I also like from ON., the idea of a track or trail in water, or the track or course of anything that has gone before. As in: "Both smiled over the crossblind at the file of capering newsboys in Mr Bloom's wake,..." (U.129)
Mark wrote: "Hey Nick - nice to hear from you, and thank you for the complement. I understand your approach, I've used it quite often myself. I do entertain fantasies of making some sort of contribution to Joyc..."I think you're already making a contribution.
Thanks, Nick. I enjoyed your conversation with Sean about the movies. I have a copy of the 1967 Joseph Strick film. Dreadful sound track, but otherwise a good attempt to compress 750 pages into 132 minutes. I've also speculated about what actors might be right for certain roles. For me, a young Salma Hayek would be a perfect Molly.
I guess actors make the roles their own or not. The one who played Mulligan in the later film stuck out a bit for me, as he just seemed physically wrong for the part, though the rest were perfect. Salma Hayek as Molly? I can't see that, I must say. Maybe because I nearly always associate her with Frida Kahlo - it's my lack of imagination, I'm sure. Off the top of my head, I think Shelley Winters would have been good as Molly, maybe when she was young (and on the cusp of blowsy). (She may be before your time.)I have a friend who, once he reached his forties, never failed to remind me of Bloom. (He's not 'a reader', and is content, he says, to take my word that he'd be a good Bloom. I think he has indeed sneaked a look at Ulysses, though.) I have more than one relative who'd be a good 'Citizen' (though with the full complement of eyes).
As to the various meanings of the word 'wake' I guess Joyce features them all, and a few that we may not have thought of. Your post inspired me to pick up FW for the first time in a few months... but I didn't. I will, though - got a bit of free time coming up, and downloaded it onto my Kindle so I don't have to schlep the book around with me.
Interestingly, I too have a good friend (use to be, good friend) who reminded me an awful lot of Bloom. I think it speaks well of the author skills. Bloom is such a rich and textured character: so real and believable.Shelly Winters, even young, isn't quite sexy enough for me. My only experience of Selma comes from her role in the American sitcom 30 Rock from a few years back.
To have relatives that would make a "good" Citizen is a hoot!
I completely agree that when attempting any exegesis of a word or phrase or anything from Finnegans Wake that all answers have a degree of validity. But I also believe that some answers are more right than others.
I just had my own Wake down off the shelf yesterday. I've got more high-lites, underlining and margin notes in this one book than my working copies of Joyce's other three put together. But still am not sure if I know anything at all about it. - )
My 'citizen' relatives would fit the bill because they're a bit shouty and strident, and, must essentially, Dubliners. The older they get, the more 'Dub' they become.
I find the idea of having relatives living in Dublin very cool! - )
Yes, my parents were from Dublin, and I still have a lot of relatives there - that generation was still having big families. I lived there for a short while as a kid.
That's really cool! So how do modern day Dubliners feel about Joyce? Is he a hero or still a scallywag?
As far as I can see, they're overwhelmingly indifferent. (Sweeping statement warning!) The Irish don't really admire anybody for having done something they have no real part in. Joyce made it plain he could do without Ireland, or, at least, the physical, and political fact, of it, so I think the Irish felt they had no stake in his work in the same way they like Brendan Behan, for example, or Flann O'Brien. On a less hifalutin level, he wrote what are seen as very difficult books that they're really just not going to read. It doesn't stop Joyce being 'celebrated' in the way he is, but it's not much - as far as I can make out - to do with the writing. Remember, at the time Ulysses came out, the number of people who'd have wanted to read it, even in the rest of the British Isles, would have been very small, anyway. It just wasn't going to make an impact in literary terms, so just became 'infamous', and, really, by the time most Irish people could buy it, disappointing.
My mum (not a big reader) had a copy and, I think, like Molly Bloom dismissing Paul de Koch, probably thought there was 'nothing smutty in it'.
I could probably write pages on this subject, so had better stop here. I'm sure many will disagree with me.
My feeling is that Ulysses is primarily a book - on a simple level, a thing to be read and enjoyed - and therefore, on that level, will not appeal to a mass audience, not really. It's one of those books that always appears on 'top 100 books to read', etc, but I think it just gets included because the people who make such lists don't want the flak they'd get for leaving it out. It's treated as more than a book, also as a cultural phenomenon - all those Bloomsday shenagigans, etc - and for me, anyway, book groups aimed specifically at reading and 'explaining' it and having it explained, go against the grain, a bit. But of course people get what they want out of it, and out of Joyce, in their own way, and I'm sure this is as true of Ireland as anywhere else.
Thanks, Nick. Very interesting answer. I guess I should not be surprised. It's sort of like asking a Russian, don't you love Dostoyevsky & Shostakovich? It just isn't necessarily so!Personally I think Ulysses is one of the greatest works of art ever accomplish. And I've gotten use to the fact that mine will always be a minority view. But as long as there are a few of us willing to champion Joyce's art, I'll be happy.
Interesting convo. Salma Hayek as Molly? She was a barely passable Frida Kahlo, if you ever read up on her. She doesn't have the same aura.I'm trying to get back into FW again.
My only experience with Ms Hayek as an actress was watching her appearances on the American sitcom 30 Rock. I thought that she looked like my mental image of Molly.
Great conversation so far! I adore Salma! I'm also a Bloomsday Shenandiganian. Great idea to toss all the pages of FW into the wind & re-read them out of order.This clip even has an uhm, altered prayer that could be a parody of Joyce altering a well known Roman Catholic prayer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9khFb...
Hey B! Still threatening to go nuclear I see. Well, we'll hang on to the safety net just in case. - )
No nuclear! The only things that should be nuked are pizza pops!
Alec Baldwin popped up simultaneously in the YouTube video and as Trump in the last SNL episode I launched. And work is having a pizza truck for us tomorrow. Trump and nuclear weapons, scary, Pop goes the world!Had to put aside FW for a reread of Ulysses. Better second time around.
Cool news about your second Ulysses read Aloha. - )
Thanks! Trying to find time to add reading the annotations to Ulysses. But I get distracted in the book candy store.
And the third time you read Ulysses it will be even better still! - )
Maybe the third time with annotations? I’m trying to read FW with annotations because the first reading is incomprehensible, like listening to a beautiful composition that you don’t understand the meaning of. 2nd reading of FW is better and richer. Maybe I should go back to it. I have Joycean ADHD.
I'm hoping to read FW, I'm expecting to not understand a word of it! I just want to enjoy the experience of not having to understand everything I read. Maybe that's one of the joys of FW? Maybe Ulysses is a puzzle we can try to work out? But FW is just always going to be a mystery?
Maybe. But FW is meant to have its meanings understood. That’s why there are as many buried references in it as there are in Ulysses. The difference is that you have to decode FW’s linguistic word play before you get at the references to further decode.
Aloha wrote: "Maybe the third time with annotations? I’m trying to read FW with annotations because the first reading is incomprehensible, like listening to a beautiful composition that you don’t understand the ..."I completely agree with your analogy to music. Repeated readings of any of Joyce's books, because of their richness, enhances our understanding and our enjoyment. And I didn't mean to make light of the annotations. Gifford's Ulysses: Annotated can certainly be read by itself.
I also agree that FW is meant to be understood, but I think most of the experts are way off the track. Having read the Wake many times I've become very familiar with it, but I couldn't say that I understand it at all. But Joyce wrote it and that's why I keep going back to his books again and again. I love the way he writes! - )
The annotations are such a chore! If reading a dictionary is your thing, then more power to you. There are varying interpretations of FW, and I agree some are off track. I have the Gifford. I prefer James Joyce's Ulysses: Critical Essays. It’s organized by critical essays covering each of the chapter of Ulysses by varying writers. I can read a chapter then go to the essay for an in-depth analysis.
I use my Gifford mostly for foreign words and phrases.I have a copy of Critical Essays too.
I have read FW a 5th time with a reading group.Here's a review I did after reading it 4 times.
I think it may be really helpful:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Ed, this is the best review on FW I’ve read. I like that you gave helpful tips on how to read it before commencing on a general overview.
Ed: Again thank you for sharing your review.I am, like yourself, fascinated with all things Joycean, and have spent half my life reading and re-reading his books.
I have also made an effort to familiarize myself with some of the main currents in Joyce criticism; and I have copies of, and have tried to read, the three FW commentaries you discuss: Campbell; Tindall; and Bishop.
Of the three I find Bishop's book the hardest to follow. I disagree with his emphasis on sleeping and consciousness. I find it more productive to read the title differently: emphasizing other meanings of the word wake, like: an annual parish festival or, from the Old Norse word vok (hole in the ice) the track or trail left in the water; or, the track or trail of anything that has gone before.
Just a thought.
Aloha wrote: "I have the Gifford. I prefer James Joyce's Ulysses: Critical Essays. It’s organized by critical essays covering each of the chapter of Ulysses by varying writers. I can read a chapter then go to the essay for an in-depth analysis."Critical Essays is a mixed bag as you'd expect from such a project, but some of these essays are essential and brilliant.
1. Would anyone recommend reading, or avoiding guidebooks? (Part of why I loved Ulysses was avoiding guides the first time round - helped me enjoy the fun and brilliance and puzzle-solving without another person's interference.)
2. Is anyone else reading it this summer? In particular, do you live around the Greater Toronto Area? If so, how would anyone feel about meeting up in a group to discuss the Wake? (Online discussion would also be awesome.)