Dragons & Jetpacks discussion

In the BOM nomination thread, there was a little discussion about whether certain works were SF or fantasy.

Here's a thread to discuss those books that fall on the borderline -- or clearly have a foot in both camps.

Some of the ones I've read:

Dread Companion by Andre Norton

A far-future setting, with interstellar colonization, but the companion is clearly a fairy -- as long as you remember that means the Fair Folk.

Agatha Heterodyne, Girl Genius, starting with Agatha Heterodyne and the Beetleburg Clank by Phil Foglio and Kaja Foglio Mad Science! But it can clearly do interesting things to the laws of nature.

Pillars of Reality, starting with The Dragons of Dorcastle by Jack Campbell Mechanics working realistic steampunk technology. Mages who can create holes in walls and walk through. And just a hint that this is a distant planet, even in the first book.

Kameron Hurley's God's War trilogy has guns, wizards and bug tech.

Ann McCaffrey's Pern novels used to stump me. For the first few it's books about a world that has dragons, so surely fantasy, but then as the explanations of the dragons and where the humans came from emerge in later books, it's definitely science fiction.

I believe the revelation of fantasy as 'sufficiently advanced' scifi is a fairly common trope.

Obvious one here --> star wars. Another one that I really want to continue on the series is Heroes Die by Matthew Stover. It's not really one world that is sci-fi/fantasy but two parallel world's one of each. In the sci fi world they have found a way to access a parallel world which is a fantasy setting. So what do they do you ask? Send "actors" to the fantasy world and have people watch through their eyes the adventures they have and charge a premium to watch it. The residents of the fantasy world of course don't know this is the case and the story follows one of the most popular actors. It is awesomely gritty and violent and really a fantastic read.

Sold, Lancer. A co-worker was reading this a couple months ago and said it was pretty good. Now with your endorsement and a couple of Goodreads amigos (with similar taste to me) giving it the thumbs up it's going on the to-read shelf.

The 13th Reality series is a blend of both.

OK, so where does the likes of The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet, or indeed StarTrek, fall? Mixture of hard sci-fi and imaginary species and planets.

(Side note - I had a very -similar conversation with Paul recently re star wars :-)

I consider those sci fi.

I think you're right Audrey. But there is very little "pure" sci-fi outside of time travel stories and earth based literature.

Is science fantasy the opposite to hard sci-fi? Is there a middle ground?

Ryan it honestly really surprised me, it sounded good and reviews were good but it surpassed them in my eyes. Some really good characters in there along with a good story.

Sold Lancer. Just bought Heroes Die on audio book. Sounds great.

I've added it to my audible wish list ;-)

Vinca wrote: "Ann McCaffrey's Pern novels used to stump me. For the first few it's books about a world that has dragons, so surely fantasy, but then as the explanations of the dragons and where the humans came f..."

Even in the first books there were clues enough that the dragons were alien creatures -- I particularly remember the scene where they were reading the old man's "babble" and didn't know what doodling was.

It was, after all, first published in Analog.

Margo wrote: "OK, so where does the likes of The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet, or indeed StarTrek, fall? Mixture of hard sci-fi and imaginary species and planets. .."

Imaginary species and planets are about as old as SF tropes as it gets. They were Hal Clement's stock in trade, and if anyone wrote hard science fiction, it was Clement.

Margo wrote: "I think you're right Audrey. But there is very little "pure" sci-fi outside of time travel stories and earth based literature.

Is science fantasy the opposite to hard sci-fi? Is there a middle gro..."

It would be an interesting definition of SF that would indeed restrict itself to those two types. Like, one that excludes about 90% of the genre.

Science fantasy generally needs to have some pure fantasy tropes. Hard SF, on the other hand -- well, the most useful definition I have run across is that if the author had to solve an equation to write the work, it's hard SF. So -- a LARGE middle ground. Most SF is neither.

If there is any science in a book I usually class it as Sci-fi since anything else from dragons to talking trees could conceivably exist given how weird the scientific fields really are getting. A sci-fi writer could easily have dreamed up dark matter!

Ryan, a common trope, but as she'd been writing her books for over 40 years, I don't mind :)

It actually extends to some of Anne's other book series' too. I finished the Ship Who Won the other day, and it starts so clearly SF before descending into what is seemingly inexplicable magic (so you wonder what on earth is happening), before explanations emerge which render it entirely SF again. It was quite a nice idea as it kind of explained that if you have some abilities or tech that you can use but don't understand, then it seems magic. Likewise if you visit a new place but it is totally alien in some ways, that can also appear as magic.

This can make it hard to define. Usually I go with 'what does it mostly seem to be?'. However there are exceptions as Pern generally reads as feudal fantasy, but I know that it sits in a SF universe and it's origins and later stories are more SF.

I just don't get why Star Wars is science fantasy and StarTrek isn't. The "magic" element in Star Wars is due to the presence of Midi-chlorians in the blood which gives the person physic powers. What's "magic" about that? What am I missing?

The whole midi chlorian stuff only came with the god awful prequel trilogy. The initial three films it was all about the magic.
Anything that happened along with Jar Jar Binks doest count ;-)

That was just the scientific explanation for the Force. The Force was always there. I love Jar Jar Binks. Cute ears!! He was the best thing in the film ;-)

Noooooooo...........

If there’s a zeppelin, it’s alternate history. If there’s a rocketship, it’s science fiction. If there are swords and/or horses, it’s fantasy. A book with swords and horses in it can be turned into science fiction by adding a rocketship to the mix. If a book has a rocketship in it, the only thing that can turn it back into fantasy is the Holy Grail. ― Debra Doyle

Ryan wrote: "I believe the revelation of fantasy as 'sufficiently advanced' scifi is a fairly common trope."

Yeah. An actual mix, where it hits both genres, has to work to prevent the readers assuming there's a SF explanation for the fantasy elements, even while there is one for the SF elements.

What about Retribution Falls. It has rocket ships but is fantasy

Paul wrote: "The whole midi chlorian stuff only came with the god awful prequel trilogy. The initial three films it was all about the magic. "

The Force was all about magic. The ships and hyperdrive were all about science. This allowed a thematic conflict between science and magic.

To me, if it has swords and rockets, it is space opera. Star Wars, Flash Gordon, John Carter, etc. And space opera is definitely a subset of science fantasy.
Doctor Who is definitely science fantasy.
Midichlorians are semi-canon. Yes, they are technically in the mythos, but are officially ignored.
I would call most Trek soft sf (although not very sot for tv/film, really), but the Abrams films verge on science fantasy. Beyond was much more in line with classic Trek.

Paul wrote: "What about Retribution Falls. It has rocket ships but is fantasy"

I would say the Ketty Jay series, like the Dishonored games, is steampunk fantasy, i.e. using various sp trappings in a different, magical world as opposed to an alternate earth.
Raises an interesting question, though: What about aternate Earth stories with magical elements, such as Johannes Cabal the Necromancer?

Mary wrote: "If there’s a zeppelin, it’s alternate history. If there’s a rocketship, it’s science fiction. If there are swords and/or horses, it’s fantasy. A book with swords and horses in it can be turned into..."

Thanks Mary, you've just added considerably to my wish list;-)

0:)

The Mageworlds, starting with The Price of the Stars by Debra Doyle and James D. Macdonald are also science fantasy. (Gee, wonder what made me think of them.)

I like the term space opera. Mass Effect falls I to it and it always make me think science fantasy leaning more towards the schedule encephalitis part. The biotic abilities are almost like magic with a sciencey explanation bit still come off like magic. Personally I thinkany books just don't fall into a single category. Peter F Hamilton's sci fi (sometimes called space opeta) had a lot of really hard sci fi stuff in it but also had spirits coming back to inhabit people bodies (including Al Capone). So think almost all sci fi, at least what I have read has never really fallen into one direct category.

Also for my two cents anything that happened in the prequels should not have existed or be considered cannon. I think it should have been about Obi-wan and Anakin and there relationship and left out most of the other crap. Could have had Obi-wan played by Liam Neeson and Anikan played by Evan McGregor and followed there adventures and misadventures and focused the whole thing on his slow descent to the dark side. Hayden Christianson should not have been let within 500m of the set. The only thing that could have saved the prequels was If they had actually had the balls to make Jar Jar a sith lord (there is a fantastic fan theory out there that I've read was actually Lucas's original vision but it was changed, I highly recommend reading it because it makes the prequels so much better).

tl/Dr --> star wars prequels sucked and shouldn't exist and Jar Jar should have been a sith

I went to Disneyland recently, and on Star Tours our "space ship" ran over Jar Jar. Everyone loved it.

Audrey wrote: "I went to Disneyland recently, and on Star Tours our "space ship" ran over Jar Jar. Everyone loved it."

LOL

I have a hard time seeing Jar Jar as a sith lord, though it would be a disguise if the bumbling idiot persona was all an act.

On the original topic, I've not given much thought about it before this discussion. In my head for books/movies/etc that fall between the genres I tend classify it based on what percentage has more weight for the work. For example I consider Star Wars sci-fi even with it's magic elements because the science part outweighs the magic to me. Similarly I consider the Might & Magic games as fantasy even though they do have space ships and techno creatures towards the end simply because 95% of the game is swords and sorcery based.

I recently nominated Replay by Ken Grimwood for botm and it was placed into the Sci-fi section despite my thoughts it should have been fantasy, (it is part of the fantasy masterworks series). The book is about time travel, but it's not done with any science elements, making it a fantasy in my eyes.