World, Writing, Wealth discussion

Parental advisory: It's not about Donald, guys..-:) You have a lot about him on the news.

Biz always entails risk. It's almost an axiom.. Having risk given, one of the natural eventualities is failure.. Don't know whether it's everywhere, but they say 9 out of 10 eateries, close doors during their first year in biz.
Not a nice situ, everybody loses money, anger, emotions, disappointment.

Sure, it can involve faults of the businessman, but errare humanum est..

So is it despicable or understandable and pardonable to a degree?

I think this is a cultural issue. In the US its a common as Kleenex. In Italy I think its still shameful. I dont know about other countries.

You have to look at it on a case by case basis but I don't think someone is automatically bad because they lost a business. It happens.

I think it depends on how they lost it, and whether they took a lot of others down with them by not paying bills.

So is it part of life or an irrevocable loss of face?

I don't know about commercial bankruptcy, but personal bankruptcy seems to me to be a result of not reading the fine print or of spending irresponsibly.

Scout wrote: "I don't know about commercial bankruptcy, but personal bankruptcy seems to me to be a result of not reading the fine print or of spending irresponsibly."

So, you do attach a culpability to it? But it can result from circumstances that don't depend on a person suffering from their occurrence. Can happen to anyone laid off where an industry goes bust, for example.

I think it depend on why. If it happens through being laid off, say, no shame. If it happens through total lack of control, then shame.

Scout, not reading the fine print? That sounds ominous. Who does read the fine print on some of these things? I just bought a hard disk, and with it came a sheet of fine print, in the usual list of multiple languages, which seemed to be summarised as several hundred situations where you can't sue us. I could not be bothered reading that, although I concede I m hardly likely to go bankrupt as a consequence

I wasn't thinking of people being laid off. Of course, there's no shame in that. I was thinking of people who bought a house with no down payment and a balloon mortgage and didn't read the fine print and know what was coming. Then when it hit the fan, they played the victim, declared bankruptcy, and others paid for their mistake.

Is failure an infamy?

Smart people learn from failure and it makes them stronger. If other people pay for their mistake due to no fault of their own, maybe a little shame is appropriate.

In the US, a lot of people mortgage their life in order to start a business they believe in. But, they don't have the business knowledge to be doing so. Sadly, both the business and personal bankruptcy result. To impose more rules before being able to do so would be against the American Dream and there are some now well known companies that would not ever have existed.

On a purely personal level, medical bills are a big cause of personal bankruptcies in the US. IMO that is the fault of our lack of reasonalble health services and not the fault of the individual. For 30 years, my out-of-pocket medical expenses on my taxes was 30% of my income. Another common cause is divorce. Especially, when one person doesn't pay the other as ordered to do. Both of the above caused bankruptcy for me.

Should I feel like I had a moral failing? No, I didn't deliberately live above my income. I worked since I was 18. There were times I worked 2 jobs. The law should protect people like me and provide a reset. Mostly, the US should provide better health care.

Per 2019 reports
66.5% of bankruptcies are caused by medical costs.
25.4% student loans
24.4% divorce

I think bankruptcies happen to anyone given the wrong circumstances. Are some moral failures, probably, but most not. I think there is a bill of good being sold to make people hate those they think are getting over. It puts pressure on the rest just trying to get by day to day. I do believe that all should pay their bills, but sometime one cannot. It happens.

Trump sort of proves that bankruptcies don't necessarily ruin someone's resume :)

Re the older post about bankruptcies and student loans - don't know if the poster lives in the US but in the US you cannot declare bankruptcy due to student loans.

I think it's possible to discharge student loans in bankruptcy, but there is a very high standard of "undue hardship" that most people who are capable of gainful employment would be able to meet if it came to a court proceeding. In late 2024, there was a proposed bill, The Student Borrower Bankruptcy Relief Act that would make it easier to get bankruptcy relief, but I don't think the bill passed in Congress.

I'd feel for the student loans, if more people weren't getting loans to get a masters in Gender Studies, or other anthropology departments. There really isn't a job to get with these degrees.

I don't see spending tax money to pay off student loans when most taxpayers haven't been to college or have already paid off their loans. They'd be pretty pissed off to pay off loans for college grads who will make more than they do.

Scout wrote: "I don't see spending tax money to pay off student loans when most taxpayers haven't been to college or have already paid off their loans. They'd be pretty pissed off to pay off loans for college gr..."

That's just it Scout. Those who went into college for a career, don't seem to care about the loans, or repaying them. Those who want to have their loans forgiven, don't have a high paying job coming out of college. There's a reason that we can end up with so many teachers. Let's face it, if you have an Anthropology degree, you need to find a way to make a living. Many turn to teaching.

Do high school graduates have a better chance of getting a well-paid job by attending trade schools and not having all that debt hanging over their heads? I've always thought that, in some cases, apprenticeships would be the way to go, but I'm not sure if that's even an option.

That is the Mike Rowe argument. It is a good argument, but as one that worked in the trades and then earned my education late in life, I understand a few things too. My body is shot. That is a reality for those in blue collar trades. It is great if you can get a high paying blue collar job and I fully agree not all are good for college. Yet, there are realities that Rowe does not address either. What do you do if you work the trades and there is not work? OR, competition from non-union workers depress the market? While I agree there are stupid degrees that will not pay, someone let a kid down by not explaining in great detail so they have eyes wide open making good choices.

So a kid comes out of college with a boatload of debt and cannot pay it off. Then what? They suffer? It is easy to say these things. However, without loans, I could not have gone to college. Yes, I paid mine off, but I had my wife to help me as I helped her. Not all have that. The one thing I think is important is that if these kids are that broke (whether being sold a bill of goods or being stupid, your pick) will not buy a car, or a house or anything else that contributes to the economy for up to 20 years.

So while I can agree with paying the loans off and am not a huge fan of giving free money out easily, I am also not so fast to throw the baby out with the bath water.