The Old Curiosity Club discussion
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Great Expectations
Great Expectations
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GE, Chapters 14-15
Mod
Chapter 14 is incredibly reflective. I was struck by the use of the past tense of the verb. I realize that tense is throughout the novel, but somehow the past tense verbs seem heavier, more present, more powerful in Chapter 14.
Their effect on me was to feel a certain amount of sympathy for Pip. He has experienced a difficult childhood, and without the saving grace of Joe, would be scarred psychologically more than he already is. We hear very clearly in this chapter the voice of the adult narrator Pip. It is a voice of reflection and again, as Tristram noted, the image of perspective is incorporated as Pip's present life choices are seen as "flat and low."
Pip's desire to leave the forge, regardless of Joe's presence, seems logical for a young man of 14. The fact that he has heard the Siren's call from Satis House makes his restlessness more understandable. While Satis house does not offer an Eldorado, it does have another prize just as bright in the form of Estella.
Mod
I hope you are all ready for the next two chapters of Pip’s story, because I am going to post the recaps one day in advance, we having guests tomorrow! If not, you migh..."
Chapter 15
Oh Pip. For shame. In my post above I felt empathy for you and now I read:
"I wanted to make Joe less ignorant and common, that he might be worthier of my society and less open to Estella's reproach."
Dickens certainly keeps his readers alert. In Chapter 15 Pip comes across as a thoroughly pompous brat. Pip tells us that under his "tuition" Joe learned nothing from week to week; Indeed, Pip is remarkably condescending towards Joe. There is great irony in the fact that it is Joe who exhibits understanding and insight into Pip's wish to call on "Miss Est-Havisham" when he replys 'Which her name ... ain't Estavisham, Pip, unless she has been rechris'ened." Any sympathy I had for Pip one chapter ago has melted quickly.
Joe is the moral centre and anchor of the novel. It is through him that Pip needs to model his behaviour. In a curious manner, Dickens demonstrates Joe's unique character. Joe's journeyman is a man called Orlick, who on not being initially granted a half-holiday like Pip, goes into a pantomime of anger in front of Pip, and then verbally spars with Mrs Joe, and then finally fights Joe. The fight is a short one. Joe quickly overpowers Orlick. Soon after this fight, Joe and Orlick clean up the forge and share a pot of beer from the Three Jolly Bargemen.
In this chapter we experience numerous incidences of violence in the novel. This time violence involved Pip first being threatened, then Mrs Joe verbally insulted and finally Joe finds himself defending his wife by physically fighting Orlick. By the end of the chapter an act of violence has silenced Mrs Joe and we are told that she was "never to be on the Rampage again while she was the wife of Joe."
Violence continuously stalks this novel. Violence has been the agent by which one of the main characters in the novel has been altered forever. Dickens uses violence as an agent of change, whether it be in the flat marshes around the forge, the deserted garden of Satis House or even the Gargery home. It seems that Pip is always associated with violence.
What does Dickens have planned next for Pip?
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Now that is definitely an adult reflecting on his childhood and not a child's thought developed by him at the time.
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This is perhaps the saddest thing in the book so far. For him to be discontented with a life that previously completely contented him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBj7F...
Everyman, your link gave me my guffaw for this morning. I'm picturing a dark, depressing scene there at the forge when all of a sudden Judy Garland busts in and bursts into song. Wonderful!
Tristram wrote: "”He pretended that his Christian name was Dolge,—a clear Impossibility,—but he was a fellow of that obstinate disposition that I believe him to have been the prey of no delusion in this particular, but wilfully to have imposed that name upon the village as an affront to its understanding.'"I'm interested to hear what everyone thinks about this passage. Why "Dolge"? Why a pretend name at all? We all know Dickens' names are meant to evoke something in his readers; what do we make of this one?
As far and the word itself goes, it reminds me of "indulge" or maybe "dolt". Or "dulche" which means "sweet" in Spanish - that certainly doesn't seem to work!
PS Feel free to pick apart "Orlick" too - it always reminds me of Oreck vacuum cleaners, but I'm pretty sure that's not what Dickens had in mind, lol!
Tristram wrote: " she might be “destined never to be on the Rampage again.”What, by the way, do you think of Pip’s choice of words here?"
It seems to me that with Pip's history of abuse from Mrs. Joe, it would only be natural for his first thoughts would be ones of self-preservation, and there would be a sense of relief (with guilt coming shortly thereafter) that she would no longer be able to beat him.
Tristram wrote: "Joe is very sceptical about that project, thinking that the old lady might take it as an effort of Pip’s to wheedle some money out of her"Another indication that Joe's not as simple as Pip seems to think he is. This shows a keen understanding of human nature, it seems to me.
Joe presents this possibility, knowing it's not something Pip might have considered, but understands that Pip is going to have to learn these sorts of lessons on his own, and lets him make the final decision. Very good parenting, it seems to me.
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One critic has suggested that Orlick is coded by Dickens to mean "liquor" by switching the last four letters to the beginning of the word. Hence lick + or. Hmmmm. Perhaps that was the mysterious man that I was singing with at The Three Jolly Bargemen. :-)
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_L...
If anyone has an interest in intertextural references this one is important for background and, perhaps, it might become an important part of our unfolding story...
Good for you, Peter, for taking the time to look up information about that play! There are parts of that plot that would seem to have things in common with GE. I really should pay more attention to things like that. I'm so glad you do, and share it with us! :-)
Mod
As far and the word itself goes, it reminds me of "indulge" or maybe "dolt". Or "dulche" which means "sweet" in Spanish - that certainly doesn't seem to work!"
Here are some meanings (?) of the word dolge. For some reason I have my doubts about Dickens using this word for any of these reasons.
I just can't resist meaning from the baby names site:
The baby boy name Dolge is pronounced DOWLJH- †. Dolge is of English-American origin. Dolge is a form of the name Dolgen.
Dolge is not commonly used as a baby boy name. It is not in the top 1000 names.
Baby names that sound like Dolge include Dalek (Czech), Dalles, Dolg, Dalgas, Dalges, Dalgis, Dalgo, Dalgos, Dalgus, Dalgys, Dalis, Dallas (English), Dallis, Dallos, Dallus, Dallys, Dalys, Delius, Dellis, and Delos (English).
From the Urban dictionary:
dolge
Yet another word for weed. Comes from dolce and gabbana, dolce and cannabis, or just dolge
Dude you wanna smoke some dolge?
From a Dickens site, although I can't find it now.
The name ‘Orlick’ may be onomatopoeic – it sounds like the noise his feet would make when he walked around in the mud by the sluice house in the marshes where he lived. bullet
The name ‘Dolge’ is entirely made up – ‘as an affront’ to decent people, says Dickens. bullet
Both names suggest sludge, dirtiness and something primeval and uncivilized.
And finally,
Alfred Dolge (December 22, 1848 – January 5, 1922) was a German born industrialist, inventor, and author of two books.
Originally an importer and manufacturer of piano materials he later founded his own factory, manufacturing felt products at Brockett’s Bridge, Fulton County, New York which in 1887 was renamed to Dolgeville, New York
Kim wrote: "Alfred Dolge (December 22, 1848 – January 5, 1922) was a German born industrialist, inventor, and author of two books."When I was surfing around, I did come across Alfred Dolge, but as he was only 13 when GE was published, I eliminated him as an inspiration. :-)
I like the Dickens quote that it was made up 'as an affront’ to decent people. I just can't figure out why we should be affronted by it!
Mod
Old Orlick Among the Cinders
Marcus Stone
1862
Third illustration for Great Expectations
Text Illustrated:
"What could the wretched Joe do now, after his disregarded parenthetical interruptions, but stand up to his journeyman, and ask him what he meant by interfering betwixt himself and Mrs. Joe; and further whether he was man enough to come on? Old Orlick felt that the situation admitted of nothing less than coming on, and was on his defence straightway; so, without so much as pulling off their singed and burnt aprons, they went at one another, like two giants. But, if any man in that neighborhood could stand uplong against Joe, I never saw the man. Orlick, as if he had been of no more account than the pale young gentleman, was very soon among the coal-dust, and in no hurry to come out of it. Then Joe unlocked the door and picked up my sister, who had dropped insensible at the window (but who had seen the fight first, I think), and who was carried into the house and laid down, and who was recommended to revive, and would do nothing but struggle and clench her hands in Joe’s hair. Then, came that singular calm and silence which succeed all uproars; and then, with the vague sensation which I have always connected with such a lull,—namely, that it was Sunday, and somebody was dead,—I went upstairs to dress myself.If any man in that neighbourhood could stand up long against Joe, I never saw the man. Orlick, as if he had been of no more account that the pale young gentleman, was very soon among the coal dust, and in no hurry to come out of it. (Ch. 15) [illustration appears in the Nonesuch Edition rpt. 2005].
Commentary:
"Here, Pip in his cloth cap, marker of his class, watches from rear centre as the giants of the forge, Joe and Orlick, struggle after Orlick has insulted Mrs. Joe. Like the other noted Dickens first-person narrator, David Copperfield, Pip is, in fact, often an observer and reporter, as well as the story's protagonist and the consciousness through which the actions, speeches, and observations of the novel are filtered. The plate is much more effectively positioned in the original Chapman and Hall volume, immediately opposite the passage realised, than it is reproduced and repositioned in the Nonesuch Edition (1937; rpt., 2005). In Marcus Stone's "Old Orlick Among the Cinders," we can identify ourselves with the figure of Pip because Stone has depicted him as a spectator, although each picture's perspective is established as belonging to a detached viewer who regards Pip as he in turn looks at Miss Havisham in Pip Waits on Miss Havisham and Joe and Orlick in the forge scene.
Mature Pip as storyteller, as observer and recorder of events from his first meaningful encounter in life — with the escaped convict in the churchyard — is once again dwarfed by the other actors in the scene in the latter woodcut, but here his expression is critical rather than adoring. Although neither illustration contains as much detail as the Browne and Cruickshank steel engravings that adorn the earlier Dickens novels, each contains a significant object with thematic associations: the former plate includes Miss Havisham's disregarded timepiece (to the right of her left elbow), and the latter plate shows a vise, suggestive of Pip's position in the argument that has erupted between Joe, Mrs. Joe, and Orlick over the protagonist's taking time off to visit Satis House.
In F. A. Fraser's twenty-eight Household Edition wood-engravings, one again finds the pattern established by Stone in that, in illustrations containing three figures, one is often the observer, as in Orlick . . . . Fraser's drawings tend to be rather cluttered, despite the artist's best attempts at using block groups, costume, gender, and gesture to provide a focus and an organisational principle. In this regard, Stone's organisation of the key elements in the scene is exemplary, although his figures are wanting in naturalness, and the moment realised most revealing of Joe Gargery's character.
Charles Green's 1897 illustration of precisely the same scene, a smooth lithograph showing a somewhat leaner and less physically powerful Joe, Orlick . . . very soon among the coal-dust, effectively conveys a sense of the blacksmith's shop and of a more mature Pip's position relative to those of the combatants, but, despite its highly convincing detailism, lacks the sheer energy of Stone's conception of the event."
Mod
"Orlick . . . . was very soon among the coal-dust, and in no hurry to come out of it"
F. A. Fraser
Text Illustrated:
“Ah-h-h!” growled the journeyman, between his teeth, “I’d hold you, if you was my wife. I’d hold you under the pump, and choke it out of you.”
(“I tell you, let her alone,” said Joe.)
“Oh! To hear him!” cried my sister, with a clap of her hands and a scream together, — which was her next stage. “To hear the names he’s giving me! That Orlick! In my own house! Me, a married woman! With my husband standing by! Oh! Oh!” Here my sister, after a fit of clappings and screamings, beat her hands upon her bosom and upon her knees, and threw her cap off, and pulled her hair down, — which were the last stages on her road to frenzy. Being by this time a perfect Fury and a complete success, she made a dash at the door which I had fortunately locked.
What could the wretched Joe do now, after his disregarded parenthetical interruptions, but stand up to his journeyman, and ask him what he meant by interfering betwixt himself and Mrs. Joe; and further whether he was man enough to come on? Old Orlick felt that the situation admitted of nothing less than coming on, and was on his defence straightway; so, without so much as pulling off their singed and burnt aprons, they went at one another, like two giants. But, if any man in that neighbourhood could stand uplong against Joe, I never saw the man. Orlick, as if he had been of no more account than the pale young gentleman, was very soon among the coal-dust, and in no hurry to get out of it.
Commentary:
In F. A. Fraser's twenty-eighth Household Edition wood-engravings, one detects the pattern established by Marcus Stone in the 1862 Library Edition. In illustrations containing three figures, one is often the observer, as in Orlick . . . . Was Very Soon Among the Coal-dust, and in No Hurry To Come Out of It, in which a small Pip observes the aftermath of the battle of the Titans from the extreme right, and the Titans hold centre stage. Already Orlick is rubbing his head, and Joe, fists clenched, seems to be preparing for Orlick to renew the combat. Fraser emphasizes the physical setting through the open forge, the large anvil (head pointing directly at Orlick's head), and the table vice (left). Fraser leaves the reader to supply the aggressive expression on Joe's stolid face, a visage which undoubtedly reflects the master-blacksmith's frustration with both his fractious wife and surly journeyman.
Mod
Orlick
Harry Furniss
1910
Dickens's Great Expectations, Library Edition
Text Illustrated:
Now, Joe kept a journeyman at weekly wages whose name was Orlick. He pretended that his Christian name was Dolge,—a clear Impossibility,—but he was a fellow of that obstinate disposition that I believe him to have been the prey of no delusion in this particular, but wilfully to have imposed that name upon the village as an affront to its understanding. He was a broadshouldered loose-limbed swarthy fellow of great strength, never in a hurry, and always slouching. He never even seemed to come to his work on purpose, but would slouch in as if by mere accident; and when he went to the Jolly Bargemen to eat his dinner, or went away at night, he would slouch out, like Cain or the Wandering Jew, as if he had no idea where he was going and no intention of ever coming back. He lodged at a sluice-keeper’s out on the marshes, and on working-days would come slouching from his hermitage, with his hands in his pockets and his dinner loosely tied in a bundle round his neck and dangling on his back. On Sundays he mostly lay all day on the sluice-gates, or stood against ricks and barns. He always slouched, locomotively, with his eyes on the ground; and, when accosted or otherwise required to raise them, he looked up in a half-resentful, half-puzzled way, as though the only thought he ever had was, that it was rather an odd and injurious fact that he should never be thinking.
This morose journeyman had no liking for me. When I was very small and timid, he gave me to understand that the Devil lived in a black corner of the forge, and that he knew the fiend very well: also that it was necessary to make up the fire, once in seven years, with a live boy, and that I might consider myself fuel. When I became Joe’s ‘prentice, Orlick was perhaps confirmed in some suspicion that I should displace him; howbeit, he liked me still less. Not that he ever said anything, or did anything, openly importing hostility; I only noticed that he always beat his sparks in my direction, and that whenever I sang Old Clem, he came in out of time."
Mod
Old Orlick
Chapter 15
Sol Eytinge, Jr.
Text Illustrated:
Now, Joe kept a journeyman at weekly wages whose name was Orlick. He pretended that his Christian name was Dolge — a clear impossibility — but he was a fellow of that obstinate disposition that I believe him to have been the prey of no delusion in this particular, but wilfully to have imposed that name upon the village as an affront to its understanding. He was a broadshouldered loose-limbed swarthy fellow of great strength, never in a hurry, and always slouching. He never even seemed to come to his work on purpose, but would slouch in as if by mere accident; and when he went to the Jolly Bargemen to eat his dinner, or went away at night, he would slouch out, like Cain or the Wandering Jew, as if he had no idea where he was going and no intention of ever coming back. He lodged at a sluice-keeper's out on the marshes, and on working days would come slouching from his hermitage, with his hands in his pockets and his dinner loosely tied in a bundle round his neck and dangling on his back. On Sundays he mostly lay all day on the sluice-gates, or stood against ricks and barns. He always slouched, locomotively, with his eyes on the ground; and, when accosted or otherwise required to raise them, he looked up in a half resentful, half puzzled way, as though the only thought he ever had, was, that it was rather an odd and injurious fact that he should never be thinking.
This morose journeyman had no liking for me. When I was very small and timid, he gave me to understand that the Devil lived in a black corner of the forge, and that he knew the fiend very well: also that it was necessary to make up the fire, once in seven years, with a live boy, and that I might consider myself fuel. When I became Joe's 'prentice, Orlick was perhaps confirmed in some suspicion that I should displace him; howbeit, he liked me still less. Not that he ever said anything, or did anything, openly importing hostility; I only noticed that he always beat his sparks in my direction, and that whenever I sang Old Clem, he came in out of time.
Dolge Orlick was at work and present, next day, when I reminded Joe of my half-holiday. He said nothing at the moment, for he and Joe had just got a piece of hot iron between them, and I was at the bellows; but by-and-by he said, leaning on his hammer:
"Now, master! Sure you're not a-going to favour only one of us. If Young Pip has a half-holiday, do as much for Old Orlick." I suppose he was about five-and-twenty, but he usually spoke of himself as an ancient person. [Chapter Fifteen]
Commentary:
In his illustration, Eytinge realises Orlick as worker in the forge, his vocational milieu. Eytinge gives him a besmirched apron and a huge sledge-hammer, as well as a menacing look and enormous biceps. He is a force to be reckoned. The logical incident with which to introduce the antagonist is Dickens's description of the uncouth giant bested in the wrestling match in the forge. After the journeyman had insulted Mrs. Joe, Joe and Orlick had come to blows — the very scene which young Marcus Stone used to introduce a boyish, cowering Orlick in the Illustrated Library Edition's Old Orlick among the Cinders. Stone, presumably with Dickens's imprimatur, had dramatized Orlick and Joe as a pair of Titans. But in that wood-engraving Herculean Joe is dominant, and Orlick lies vanquished on the ground. Here, in contrast to Stone's "Clash of the Titans," Eytinge effectively suggests Orlick's neanderthal's force, his Satanic malice, and above all his smoldering resentment.
Mod
Orlick . . . very soon among the coal-dust
Charles Green
1877
The Annotated Dickens provides the above caption, which is not in the original Gadshill Edition The moment depicted occurs in Chapter 15: ". . . . without so much as pulling off their singed and burnt aprons, they went at one another, like two giants. But, if any man in that neighbourhood could stand up long against Joe, I never saw the man. Orlick, as if he had been of no more account than the pale young gentleman [whom Pip had subdued easily in the ruined garden at Satis House], was very soon among the coal-dust, and in no hurry to come out of it."
I don't know why there is a color illustration, I didn't go look yet.
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" Edward Ardizzone had the unique opportunity to revisit the work a decade later with a different take, and in a different medium. In 1939, in addition to 51 pen and ink drawings (used as chapter headings and which are identical in the later edition), he did 8 watercolor paintings, reproduced by Mourlot Frères in Paris "with a vivacity of color, a brilliance of effect, transcending anything which has yet appeared in the Heritage books," --a quote from the Sandglass. In 1949, he redid these 8 color plates entirely as color lithographs, drawing directly on the stones, creating a separate element for each color; These lithographs were pulled by the Curwen Press in London.
When you compare the two sets, it seem obvious that the later work is much darker and grimmer than the watercolors. The difference is attributed to the differences in the media used.
Kim wrote: "Old OrlickChapter 15
Sol Eytinge
My God! Orlick is twins with the convict!
Seriously, though - Green's illustrations get my vote for this chapter.
PS Kim - I hope this means you're feeling better, and not that you're pushing yourself too hard for our benefit!
Mod
Like Mary Lou said above, I hope you are feeling better. Again, and always, thank you for the illustrations.
First, the bad news. For the first time, I do not like a Furniss illustration. To me, his Orlick just does not match with my perception. The fact that it could be my perception is another matter. :-) Still, I imagine Orlick as a hefty individual whose face is much more brutal. The Furniss illustration portrays Orlick as thin, and his face is shifty, not brutal. The Sol Eytinge illustration is rather creepy, but it is, in my opinion, a more accurate portrayal. It is interesting to note, however, that the Furniss illustration does include a sack lunch hanging down Orlick's back.
It is also interesting to see some illustrations in colour. While I realize that A Christmas Carol did have coloured plates, I am used to the b&w look. I wonder what Dickens thought of the use of colour in his illustrations.
Mod
Well done, Joe. I don't usually approve of violence, but there are times ...
Mod
Not the first time for me, either, but I don't like it either. He's supposed to be broad shouldered, to have had years in the forge. He would look a lot bigger and more powerful than he does there.
Mod
I'm surprised that they used this scene for their cover. It has very little do do with the story -- a very minor incident, one and done. But I guess it attracts the boys who were the primary consumers of comic books in that day and age. If they expected to find lots of fighting and soldiers inside, they sure would have been disappointed!
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And with that I'm off to bed.
Peter points to Joe's unique character. Just before the fight starts Pip tells us that if there is a man who can take Joe, he hasn't met or heard of him. Very telling, I think. Joe could be his father but chooses not to be. Instead Joe's reaction to his father's violent life seems to have created an ethos in Joe that guides him through life and all relationships, and not just the one he has with his wife.A bully will take advantage of Joe, even push him around (not physically), because he comes off as indecisive, even diffident, and get away with it until the bully turns his wrath on someone weaker, then Joe changes into a different person.
Orlick is the image of the father Joe describes, and maybe when Orlick starts in on Joe's wife, Orlick becomes Joe's father and Mrs Joe becomes Joe's mother. But I'm wondering if Joe isn't a bit of an empath. If so, then perhaps he is a paladin, and whenever a bully pushes around someone weaker the paladin appears, but the bully can verbally bully Joe all he wants.
Miscellany.Looks like we have some fighters in the Gargery family.
I agree with others, Furniss's illustration of Orlick is a complete miss.
I read a number of Classics Illustrated. For those interested in a complete list here is a link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic...
Click on show.
Mod
As to the name "Orlick", I am reminded of the Dutch word "oorlog", which means "war" and therefore also conjures up the idea of brute force and lawlessness. I don't know if Dickens knew any Dutch, but it is a strange coincidence, anyway. Another strange coincidence is that words like "Ork" and "Morlock" are also rather similar to "Orlick", and Orks as well as Morlocks are quite burly, heavyset and brutal creatures.
Evoking sensations and associations just by the sound of a name is quite subtle, and there are other examples in Dickens's world, such as Gamp, Dick Swiveller, Meagles, Silas Wegg, Micawber, or Uriah Heep alongside more straightforward telling names such as Smallweed, Krook, Solomon Gills, Murdstone, Bumble and Mrs. Mann.
Mod
A few chapters earlier we learn that Estella's face shows a certain blush as though something pleased her very much - immediately after Pip has beaten up the pale young gentleman.
Parallel, or coincidence?
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Kim:
Like Tristram, the last illustration is truly creepy. I hope you had a good night's rest without bad dreams after posting it.
Mod
Your comments got me thinking more about how Joe is portrayed so far in the novel.
Joe is both physically strong and yet gentle. Some might even say meek rather than gentle. To me, he carries the memory of his own upbringing, and this upbringing has not lead to a continuance of violence, but to an acceptance and understanding that violence is not an answer to much in the world. That Mrs Joe is able to dominate him is acceptable to Joe. That Mrs Joe is so aggressive towards Pip may be wrong, but Joe, rightfully or not, still sees the importance and value of family unity (albeit at a painful price). Joe even felt sorry for the convict after he was captured, but he did realize that when someone transgresses the law punishment is required.
When, however, there is a clear transgression towards someone who Joe loves and cares for, as seen in Orlick, Joe is quite willing and certainly able to use his strength to bring any such situation to a rapid conclusion. Then, after the issue has been resolved with the transgressed, Joe is able to make peace again.
Thus Dickens projects the characteristics of Joe that he is a man who will stand up for what is right and is willing to defend those whom he loves. Equally important is the fact that Dickens has established the fact that Joe is very forgiving.
To defend what is right to defend, and to forgive the transgressions of others when applicable are characteristics to recall as we follow his character through the novel. Joe has physical strength, but more importantly, he has moral strength.
Mod
I don't really see a parallel there. It was a time when fighting among men or boys was more acceptable than it is today. If one reads the school stories from the time, and even up to WWII, there is a significant amount boys settling quarrels with their fists. It's the aftermath of dueling, perhaps; according to Wikipedia, the last duel was fought in England in 1852, less than a decade before the publication Great Expectations.
We also have the fight between the convicts.
So I'm tempted to see the fights as not interconnected or parallel, but as a reflection of societal practices when disputes arise, which today would be cause to call the police or go to court, but then were just settled "mano-a-mano."
Mod
I assume you mean "destined never to be on the Rampage again."
Since he had no idea when first finding her injured that this would be the case, and couldn't know it until her death, this is the reflection of the adult Pip looking back on the situation from a distance, after, and perhaps a long time after, her death. I think it simply shows what for Pip was the central aspect of his relationship with his sister -- not that she prepared his meals, or washed his clothes, or otherwise cared for him to the extent that she did, but that she would go on the Rampage (capital R every time it comes up in the text!) -- that's what was most central to their relationship.
Mod
"Pip fancies he sees Estella's Face in the Fire"
Harry Furniss
Chapter 14
1910
Text Illustrated:
"What I wanted, who can say? How can I say, when I never knew? What I dreaded was, that in some unlucky hour I, being at my grimiest and commonest, should lift up my eyes and see Estella looking in at one of the wooden windows of the forge. I was haunted by the fear that she would, sooner or later, find me out, with a black face and hands, doing the coarsest part of my work, and would exult over me and despise me. Often after dark, when I was pulling the bellows for Joe, and we were singing Old Clem, and when the thought how we used to sing it at Miss Havisham’s would seem to show me Estella’s face in the fire, with her pretty hair fluttering in the wind and her eyes scorning me,—often at such a time I would look towards those panels of black night in the wall which the wooden windows then were, and would fancy that I saw her just drawing her face away, and would believe that she had come at last.
After that, when we went in to supper, the place and the meal would have a more homely look than ever, and I would feel more ashamed of home than ever, in my own ungracious breast"
Mod
Thanks! I had never heard of these before and I'm having fun looking at them.
Mod
Is this one better?
Or this drawing of Miss Havisham:
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Harry Furniss
Chapter 14
1910
Text Illustrated:
"What I wanted, who can say? How can I say, when I never knew? What I dreaded was, that in some..."
Thank heavens Harry Furniss is on track again with this wonderful illustration. There is full detail here. With Joe on the left facing the viewer, and Pip on the right with his face turned toward the fire, we have a darkened frame for the image of Estella as it materializes from the flames. The fire-formed Estella gazes directly at Pip. To me, the image is provocative, enticing, seductive in nature. The viewer is left to imagine what Pip's face must reflect as he gazes at her. On the other hand, Joe's face, which we can see, naturally shows no sense of recognition. Estella's image in the centre of the illustration is the light that radiates into the forge.
In the text of GE Dickens has already frequently portrayed Estella as bringing a light to show Pip his way through Satis house. In this illustration Estella has also entered the world of the forge. There is no question that Estella has also entered into the mind of Pip.
Mod
Is this one better?
Or this drawing of Miss Havisham:
"
Oh, my. What to select? Who to choose? And how to interpret your word "better?" I'm stumped Kim. :-)
Mod
Harry Furniss."
Joe's face looks like a French grandee.
Mod
I don't really see a parallel there. It was a time when fighting among men or boys was more acceptable than it is today. If one reads the school storie..."
I don't mean so much the fights in themselves but rather the idea that in both situations women are involved:
a) Pip vs the pale young gentleman - no apparent reason for the fight - Estella may have witnessed it, seems pleased at Pip's victory
b) Joe vs Old Orlick - reason: Orlick's behaviour towards Mrs. Joe - Mrs. Joe witnesses it, but we do not learn that she is pleased with her husband's victory; in fact, she complains about his not defending her
In both cases, the two male opponents, as soon as the fight is over, are apparently on fairly good terms with each other again, the first two shaking hands, the second two cleaning the shop and sharing a mug of beer.
But maybe, this is a clear case of over-interpretation.
Mod
Yes, and the fact that this comes from Pip the Elder surprises me because I would have thought that, with the distance of maybe decades, Pip the Elder would have been able to adopt a more nuanced view of his sister. It's not surprising that young Pip would only see the bad sides of his sister, but I think an older man should take a less egocentrical view on his family members.
Or maybe, these words are due to the narrator's (author's) attempt at providing comic relief. I remember when I noticed in some passages of Bleak House that Esther's narrative voice was sometimes way too ironic to be in tune with her general character. This could be a similar thing here.
Mod
Is this one better?
Or this drawing of Miss Havisham:
"
I quite like that style, because of its quaintness. Somehow, Miss Havisham reminds me of a Tim Burton film in your last illustration.
I hope you are all ready for the next two chapters of Pip’s story, because I am going to post the recaps one day in advance, we having guests tomorrow! If not, you might have time to get ready because Chapter 14 is not particularly long as its main function seems to be to sum up what happens to Pip after his regular visits at Miss Havisham’s have come to a close and his time as Joe’s apprentice has begun. Right from the start, we learn that our hero is in a personal fix because his experience at Satis House has made him unable to reconcile with the kind of life his origins have predestined him to lead.
We learn in a way from the last sentence here that Pip has started to view things with the eyes of those who despise him for being what he is. He also states that “[t]he change was made in [him]” and not so much in his outward circumstances. The worst thing is probably that he no longer feels attracted to the trade he is going to learn, and he states that the only things that prevents him from running away and becoming a soldier or a sailor is Joe’s kindness. Interestingly, when thinking about his life and his prospects, Pip likens them to the marshes that are the setting of his life to that point – because both the marshes and his prospects seem “flat and low”.
In Chapter 15, we learn about Pip’s various efforts at getting educated and at having Joe get some education, too. However, he admits that his attempts at teaching Joe also have to do with Estella and Miss Havisham since he somehow has the feeling that he should make Joe worthier of those two ladies by making him a bit more learned and less coarse. On one of those Sundays, when Pip and Joe are sitting together, doing their studies, Pip tells Joe that he would like to pay another visit to Est- ahem Miss Havisham to thank her for what she has done for him. Joe is very sceptical about that project, thinking that the old lady might take it as an effort of Pip’s to wheedle some money out of her, but Pip prevails, and finally Joe agrees to let him have a half-holiday so that he may be able to go to Miss Havisham’s and pay his visit.
If you have a look at that conversation between Pip and Joe, what do you notice about their relationship?
This, and all the following questions, are, of course, only suggestions – and you may point out whatever you like about this week’s read.
Now, on account of Pip’s half-holiday, there is going to be a little family row. Joe has a journeyman named Orlick, who bestows on himself the spurious surname of Dolge, and who is a man of slouching habits, and yet rather gruff and brutal and uncouth. The narrator describes him in the following way,
On hearing that Pip is granted a half-holiday, Orlick insists on his being treated to the same bounty, which Joe cannot help but grant. His wife, however, overhearing the conversation, reproaches her husband with his generosity, and soon Orlick and Mrs. Joe start bandying words. Mrs. Joe works herself into a fit of passion, stating that her husband stands by when she is insulted – although he clearly warns Orlick to stop arguing with his wife -, and the upshot of it all is that Joe and Orlick begin to fight, a fight which clearly shows Joe’s physical superiority, and which ends in both opponents sharing a mug of beer and sweeping out the workshop a little later.
What do you think of Pip’s way of explaining his sister’s behaviour? Do you think he might be doing her an injustice when he pretends to know that she is doing her best in order to get angry?
What does this situation tell you about Joe as a husband?
Pip finally arrives at Miss Havisham’s, only to find that Estella is no longer there and has been replaced by Sarah Pocket as a gate- and company-keeper. Miss Havisham at first suspects that mercenary motives have led Pip to Satis House, but she soon tells him that she has sent Estella away in order to make yet a finer lady of her, and she tells him to come to her once a year, on his birthday. She also gives him a sovereign.
What do Miss Havisham’s behaviour and her words show about her?
After his visit, Pip runs into Mr. Wopsle, who has bought a copy of the Tragedy of George Barnwell, a play about a young man who is led astray and into murder by a scheming woman he falls in love with. Is this an example of dramatic irony? After being “read at” by Mr. Wopsle and stared at by Mr. Pumblechook for a while, Pip and Wopsle start their journey back, when they are joined by a slouching Old Orlick, who tells them that another convict must have escaped from the Hulks.
When they are nearing their home, they learn of a tragic crime: Mrs. Joe has been struck down from behind apparently by the fugitive, and her state of health gives rise to the apprehension that she might be “destined never to be on the Rampage again.”
What, by the way, do you think of Pip’s choice of words here?