The Old Curiosity Club discussion

Hi to all Curiosities!

Chapter 16 picks up the action from right where Chapter 15 left us – after the news struck Pip that his sister had fallen victim to a crime. His head being full with the tragedy of George Barnwell, Pip suspects himself of being in some way responsible for what has befallen his sister, and by and by we learn the particulars of the tragedy: His sister was hit by somebody standing behind her and using a convict-iron that had been filed asunder.

Now, here’s the juicy bit:

”Now, Joe, examining this iron with a smith’s eye, declared it to have been filed asunder some time ago. The hue and cry going off to the Hulks, and people coming thence to examine the iron, Joe’s opinion was corroborated. They did not undertake to say when it had left the prison-ships to which it undoubtedly had once belonged; but they claimed to know for certain that that particular manacle had not been worn by either of the two convicts who had escaped last night. Further, one of those two was already retaken, and had not freed himself of his iron.

Knowing what I knew, I set up an inference of my own here. I believed the iron to be my convict’s iron,—the iron I had seen and heard him filing at, on the marshes,—but my mind did not accuse him of having put it to its latest use. For I believed one of two other persons to have become possessed of it, and to have turned it to this cruel account. Either Orlick, or the strange man who had shown me the file.”

Is is an instance of dramatic irony (again) that Mrs. Joe was apparently struck with that very iron that would not have been left behind, had it not been for the file stolen by Pip? What will this coincidence do to Pip with regard to his feelings of guilt?

In the following, the case is looked into by the Bow Street Runners (an early detective force, founded in the mid-eighteenth century and later being made redundant by the Metropolitan Police), who are not very successful in that matter and who even suspect someone like Joe of just pretending to be a rather naïve and good-natured person, while actually being a very deep and underhanded character. Pip all the while argues within himself whether he had not better tell Joe about the events connected with the two convicts he met on Christmas Day, but he finds that the secret, so long carried within his breast, has finally become a part of himself and can no longer be torn out of him.

Of Pip’s sister, we learn the following:

”Long after these constitutional powers had dispersed, my sister lay very ill in bed. Her sight was disturbed, so that she saw objects multiplied, and grasped at visionary teacups and wineglasses instead of the realities; her hearing was greatly impaired; her memory also; and her speech was unintelligible. When, at last, she came round so far as to be helped downstairs, it was still necessary to keep my slate always by her, that she might indicate in writing what she could not indicate in speech. As she was (very bad handwriting apart) a more than indifferent speller, and as Joe was a more than indifferent reader, extraordinary complications arose between them which I was always called in to solve. The administration of mutton instead of medicine, the substitution of Tea for Joe, and the baker for bacon, were among the mildest of my own mistakes.”

How can this state of affairs be read in the context of prisons both literal and in a metaphoric sense? Mrs. Joe is imprisoned in a body that no longer works properly – and yet, as Pip says in the following paragraph, her temper is suddenly greatly improved.

We also find her very anxious for Orlick to be brought within her presence and to propitiate him by offering him something to drink and making him feel comfortable. It is, however, due to Biddy, who now comes into their house as a regular help and attendant to Mrs. Joe, that they learn that the invalid actually wanted Orlick to be taken to her.

Why might Mrs. Joe have such an interest in being on good terms with Orlick?

It is possible for Biddy to live in the Gargery household because Mr. Wopsle’s great-aunt had died. In this context, Pip uses the following phrase:

”Mr. Wopsle’s great-aunt conquered a confirmed habit of living into which she had fallen, and Biddy became a part of our establishment.”

What do you think about Pip’s choice of words here with regard to referring to the death of an old woman?

Chapter 17 tells us that Pip goes to Miss Havisham every year in order to pay her a visit and to receive his guinea, and interestingly Miss Havisham always refers to Estella in the very same words.

Always using the same words, always referring to Estella – what is your impression of Miss Havisham?

The rest of the chapter mainly focuses on Biddy’s presence in the Gargery household and how beneficent it is, and Pip’s description of the young woman makes it very clear that he compares her to Estella, e.g. when he says:

”She was not beautiful,—she was common, and could not be like Estella,—but she was pleasant and wholesome and sweet-tempered. She had not been with us more than a year (I remember her being newly out of mourning at the time it struck me), when I observed to myself one evening that she had curiously thoughtful and attentive eyes; eyes that were very pretty and very good.”

Again, we have a rather obvious parallel between two characters here. What do you think will be the effect on Pip of these two so different characters?

Maybe, Pip even intends to draw a parallel between himself and Biddy, or rather a contrast, when he says to her, ‘You are one of those […] who make the most of every chance’ after telling her how well she used the chances life gave to her in order to improve her accomplishments. – What do you think, is Pip comparing himself to her? And what is his conclusion?

In one of their conversations, Pip also confides to Biddy that he no longer feels any satisfaction in the kind of life he is leading and that – for the sake of the young woman he met at Miss Havisham’s – he wants to be a gentleman. Biddy takes Pip’s thoughts and feelings seriously, although they make her very sad and she is of the opinion that it would be better for Pip if he did not hanker after Estella. She also makes a confession, namely that she thinks that Orlick has taken a fancy to her – a thought that Pip is indignant at so that he now begins to thwart every opportunity Orlick might have of being alone with Biddy – a strategy that Orlick soon discovers and loathes Pip for.

To revert once more to the long and confidential talk Pip and Biddy have, the following detail struck me:

”It was summer-time, and lovely weather. When we had passed the village and the church and the churchyard, and were out on the marshes and began to see the sails of the ships as they sailed on, I began to combine Miss Havisham and Estella with the prospect, in my usual way.”

Why might sails and ships be associated with Miss Havisham and Estella by Pip?

Tristram wrote: "Is is an instance of dramatic irony (again) that Mrs. Joe was apparently struck with that very iron that would not have been left behind, had it not been for the file stolen by Pip? What will this coincidence do to Pip with regard to his feelings of guilt?"

It's classic Dickens coincidence, but the likelihood is that the convict would have found something else to strike her with, so objectively it can't be considered Pip's fault. But certainly he can feel guilt, and at his age probably can't rationalize that it really has nothing to do with him.

Tristram wrote: "How can this state of affairs be read in the context of prisons both literal and in a metaphoric sense? Mrs. Joe is imprisoned in a body that no longer works properly – and yet, as Pip says in the following paragraph, her temper is suddenly greatly improved.."

While Miss H is imprisoned just as securely in a mind that no longer works properly -- and yet, her temper is presumably much worsened from when she was a blushing near bride.

Tristram wrote: "
Why might Mrs. Joe have such an interest in being on good terms with Orlick?"

I had the same question. Anybody have an idea?

Well, if Orlick did it Mrs. Joe must be in a constant state of panic unable as she is to defend herself or even accuse her assailant, and with him having easy access to her when no one else is around. Perhaps she is attempting to appease him, letting him know he has nothing to fear from her. But then he never did.

Then again people often have no memory of a traumatic event that includes brain injury. A change in personality is alluded to, and perhaps that's it. I don't believe that but thought I'd throw it out there :-)

Chapter 16 offers up more feelings of guilt within Pip. It is important to note that Pip says that he "believed the iron to be my convict's iron - the iron I had seen and heard him filing at, on the marshes." Pip also muses that the perpetrator of the crime could be Orlick.

Pip's guilt continues to mount within him. Since there have been only four convicts who have escaped the Hulks and certainly only one who "filed asunder" a leg iron, Pip does know he is connected to that filed leg iron, and thus guilty by association to his sister's attack.

Pip begins the chapter by telling us that his head is "full of George Barnwell." The duplicity in that story and the death that occurs also leads Pip to believe that "I must have had some hand in the attack upon my sister." As Tristram has noted, "Mrs Joe is imprisoned in a body that no longer works properly." Here we have yet another form of imprisonment.

Indeed, imprisonment and guilt seem to be intertwined very closely together. The chapters we are considering this week make it very clear that Pip feels imprisioned in his apprentiship to Joe. A leg iron used to curtail the movement of a man has been found and it was the agent for Mrs. Joe's mental and physical imprisonment. The energy and aggressive nature of Mrs Joe that brought Pip and Joe "by hand" is now replaced with her strange desire to befriend Orlick, the only person we have seen in the novel who dared speak or act aggressively to her before he was beaten by Joe in a fight. How do we account for her desire to befriend Orlick unless it be that she believes her physical state of imprisonment can only be assuaged by releasing any anger she has towards him for the hostile words and perhaps the deed he has perpetrated on her.

All of the events of this chapter revolve around the old filed leg iron. The leg iron stands as the central image of the novel so far. Pip wants to escape his apprenticeship, Orlick wanted to be free for a half-holiday like Pip, Miss Havisham has created a self-imposed prison at Satis House, Estella's beauty and potential is engulfed by her servitude at Satis House. Hovering over all these events is the spector of Pip's convict. He too has been imprisoned and sent to Australia, but what about the file that strirred the drink at The Three Jolly Bargemen and the money he gave Pip that is now in the Gargery kitchen? Prisons, guilt, violence of all forms.

We need more than the Bow Street Runners to untangle this web.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Well, if Orlick did it Mrs. Joe must be in a constant state of panic unable as she is to defend herself or even accuse her assailant, and with him having easy access to her when no one else is arou..."

I also thought at first that it may be that Orlick did it, but in that case would not have it been safer for Mrs. Joe to write on her little slate that she was attacked by Orlick? In that case, he would be completely got out of her way and have no more the opportunity of hovering about the house.

As to a change of personality, would this not extend to anybody near her? Why does she single out Orlick for her favours?

Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Is is an instance of dramatic irony (again) that Mrs. Joe was apparently struck with that very iron that would not have been left behind, had it not been for the file stolen by Pip..."

Quite logically, you are right. If the blow was premeditated, then any heavy tool could have been used for it, but maybe the person who did it just picked it up for when it might have come in handy and he carried it about him when he happened onto Mrs. Joe.

Apart from that, there seems some ill-humoured stroke of fate involved in the whole business. Poor Pip, in his situation he will surely blame himself for having made it all possible by stealing that file.

Peter wrote: "Chapter 16 offers up more feelings of guilt within Pip. It is important to note that Pip says that he "believed the iron to be my convict's iron - the iron I had seen and heard him filing at, on th..."

Peter, I really like the way you tie loose ends together and point out parallels, and I also think that reading this novel at such a slow pace was a good idea - for all the self-discipline it demands as to not rushing ahead - because this gives us the time needed to become aware of all the numerous details that Dickens plaits into his story. I am reading a sensation novel by Mary E. Braddon at the same time, only at a much quicker pace, and although I enjoy Braddon very much, it becomes obvious to me that Braddon is not able to hold a candle to Dickens when it comes to density of detail and hidden meanings.

I like your underlining the symbol of the leg-iron and your applying it to Pip finding himself apprenticed to a job he no longer wants to do. The leg-iron can also be seen in his self-reproaches and his guilty conscience, which follow him wherever he goes. Miss H. wears a similar leg-iron when she is walking round and round that table, and like a prisoner she cannot walk too well but needs Pip to lead and support her.

Tristram wrote: "I also thought at first that it may be that Orlick did it, but in that case would not have it been safer for Mrs. Joe to write on her little slate that she was attacked by Orlick?"

Communication is simplistic and spotty at best. As Pip says it is difficult for her to write. Her words/symbols are sometimes (often?) mistaken by him and Biddy, and Joe probably can't understand her at all. Her hammer is a T. If she can write the name Orlick, why draw a hammer? I doubt she can form a series of words or symbols that identifies her assailant.

If this is true, then her abuser is always in close proximity and can attack her any time he wants. Sometimes the abused fawn over their abusers in an attempt to stop the abuse. That may explain why she treats Orlick better than others. That's too psychological for me. Is it too psychological for Dickens?

Tristram wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Is is an instance of dramatic irony (again) that Mrs. Joe was apparently struck with that very iron that would not have been left behind, had it not been for the f..."

A more sinister possibility is this is an attack on the whole family. Was someone else present when Pip gave the file to his convict, someone neither Pip nor the convict were aware of? Did the assailant attack Mr's Joe using the leg iron because he knew Pip would recognize it and convince himself he is in someway responsible for what has happened to his sister? That guilt thing.

Re: Biddy - thank God for her! Another "Dickens coincidence" that her services became available just as the Gargerys needed her. As is so often the case in fiction, as in life, the pretty, mean girl gets all the attention, while the common, but sweet-tempered girl, with all her sterling qualities, gets overlooked and taken for granted. Like Joe, she sees and understands much more than she lets on, and has the good sense to realize that Pip has to learn life's hard lessons through experience. Will he come to his senses in time to see what a jewel Biddy is?

My reaction would normally be that Pip and Biddy would eventually get together as has happened in other of Dickens' books. But here I'm not so sure. This book is darker than others of Dickens I have read, and it is missing much of the humor I found so enchanting in the others. The grotesque is there but not the fun, and our so-called hero is developing a decidedly condescending attitude, although at this point he keeps much of it to himself. Compare to Estella. Other than Joe who speaks little is there a character we have come across we can embrace for his or her basic decency? Perhaps this is Biddy, but it's too early to tell if she will develop into a major character. There is something about this book that is very depressing even fatalistic. I can see waves of pain coming.

Tristram wrote: "who even suspect someone like Joe of just pretending to be a rather naïve and good-natured person, while actually being a very deep and underhanded character."

Aren't these police partially correct? Certainly Joe is not underhanded, but isn't he deeper in thought and judgment than a first and second impression might leave one?

Tristram wrote: "What do you think about Pip’s choice of words here with regard to referring to the death of an old woman?"

I wrote a looooong response to this question exploring the deaths of various characters throughout Dickens' novels, but after reading it over I realized it was rather vacuous and really added nothing to the conversation. Thank God for the delete key! Bottom line, it was obvious from previous passages that Pip had no respect for this woman, nor any real relationship with her, and gave her death the reaction he undoubtedly thought it deserved.

And as readers, we want characters to get their just desserts. We feel that justice is served when Bill Sikes falls off that roof, and we cry when Paul Dombey or Jo in BH is taken prematurely. Mr. Wopsle's great-aunt's school is a joke, and her death is treated as one, also.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Is is an instance of dramatic irony (again) that Mrs. Joe was apparently struck with that very iron that would not have been left behind, had it n..."

That is really an eerie thought! And yet, it would not be totally out of tune with that dark and guilt-laden world of the marshes that seems to be Pip's outer as much as inner landscape.

As to Mrs. Joe's not being able to write fluently and making use of symbols or letters at best, I did forget that aspect. Now that I remember it, what you say makes absolute sense to me. Mrs. Joe could just not be sure that her letters would be deciphered and interpreted correctly by Pip and Joe, and maybe not even by Biddy. Maybe when she first drew that Orlick sign, she did it to indict him and when he suddenly was brought into her presence, she noticed that she would probably have difficulty in making the others understand. And then there was Orlick looking at her all the time. - Surely a gruesome situation, this imprisonment of Mrs. Joe's.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Aren't these police partially correct? Certainly Joe is not underhanded, but isn't he deeper in thought and judgment than a first and second impression might leave one?"

Yes, there's a lot of the wisdom of the heart in him.

Mary Lou wrote: "Mr. Wopsle's great-aunt's school is a joke, and her death is treated as one, also."

I would have been interested in your looooong excursion on the deaths of various Dickens characters, and it's a pity you deleted it.

As to the Wopslean great-aunt, of course, she is a joke but that is largely due to how the narrator presents us to her. And while I feel that Dickens's voice could not resist that tongue-in-cheek and rather bitter remark about the great-aunts giving up the bad habit of living, I also think that a more mature Pip might not have been very likely to use such an expression in connection with an old lady he knew - be she ever so ridiculous. It just somehow does not fit, since - unlike Pumblechook - she does not do any harm and never really wrongs anybody, but is just not very efficient at teaching.

Tristram wrote: "Maybe when she first drew that Orlick sign, she did it to indict him and when he suddenly was brought into her presence, she noticed that she would probably have difficulty in making the others understand."

Wow, this is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading the passage.

Tristram wrote: "Peter wrote: "Chapter 16 offers up more feelings of guilt within Pip. It is important to note that Pip says that he "believed the iron to be my convict's iron - the iron I had seen and heard him fi..."

Tristram

Thanks for bringing to my attention the added detail of Miss Havisham's walking around and around the table. I am finding GE to be dense with symbol, imagery and ever-more connections among events. And to think Dickens wrote this at a weekly pace!

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "I also thought at first that it may be that Orlick did it, but in that case would not have it been safer for Mrs. Joe to write on her little slate that she was attacked by Orlick?"..."

Xan

You introduce a very important question regarding the psychological aspect of the novel and how much we, as readers, should read into it and respond.

At the risk of muddying the water more could I suggest that the "T" shape which supposedly represents a hammer that is associated with Orlick could be also simply seen as the shape of a hammer. I say simply but, of course, here comes a suggestion concerning symbolism. Dickens has already introduced us to the leg iron twice. The first time was in the marshes when it was attached to the criminal and now again as it becomes the instrument that injures Mrs Joe. Dickens has also introduced a file to his readers on more than one occasion. Pip steals one and the prisoner uses it to free himself. A file then shows up at The Three Jolly Bargemen. Now a hammer-like figure in the shape of a "T" appears in the novel. The connection among these is the forge.

We can overlap a few events. There is a violent event in the marshes as the convict threatens to harm (and even eat) Pip. There is a fight in the forge between Joe and Orlick. Overriding these events is the violent story of Lillo's George Barnwell. A file, a hammer, and a leg iron seem somehow connected. The forge, being imprisoned in some way, shape, or manner, and the concept of being an apprentice are all present. We know that Pip does not want to be an apprentice. How will he escape his confinement?

In message 13 you comment how dark this novel seems. I agree with you. There is something malevolent stalking these pages. Even in the darkness of TTC I did not feel the darkness as I do here.

Peter,

Umm . . . Urgh . . . Oh! Oh! Oh! . . . That Three Jolly Bargemen.

Seriously, you bring together the symbolism for me. I'm getting a better picture of what Dickens is up to. Thanks. I never would have linked the hammer, leg iron, and file to the forge without your assistance. So what are we to make of the forge? Pip is linked to the forge but Joe is more strongly linked to it. Any significance?

Alongside GE I'm reading By Gaslight, a Victorian-era mystery with wonderful prose and pitch-perfect yet modern dialog. You can see Dickens and Collins all over the story, and it's obvious to me the author Steven Price is tipping his hat to both of them. There is this one passage where one of the main characters -- William Pinkerton, the son of Alan Pinkerton -- is asking a clerk for the plans to the sewer system, when the clerk pops in to tell Pinkerton that Charles Dickens had been there not long ago asking for the same thing. And then he says:

"Fascinating man, that Mr. Dickens. Don't much care for his writing much, though."

"Pip and Biddy sitting on a bank in the Marshes"

Chapter 17

John McLenan

1860

Dickens's Great Expectations,

Harper's Weekly 5 (2 February 1861)


Text Illustrated:

My sister was never left alone now; but Joe more than readily undertook the care of her on that Sunday afternoon, and Biddy and I went out together. It was summer-time, and lovely weather. When we had passed the village and the church and the churchyard, and were out on the marshes and began to see the sails of the ships as they sailed on, I began to combine Miss Havisham and Estella with the prospect, in my usual way. When we came to the river-side and sat down on the bank, with the water rippling at our feet, making it all more quiet than it would have been without that sound, I resolved that it was a good time and place for the admission of Biddy into my inner confidence.

“Biddy,” said I, after binding her to secrecy, “I want to be a gentleman.”

“O, I wouldn’t, if I was you!” she returned. “I don’t think it would answer.”

"Hulloa!" he growled;
"Where are you two going?"

Chapter 17

John McLenan

1861

Dickens's Great Expectations,

Harper's Weekly 5

"When we came near the churchyard, we had to cross an embankment, and get over a stile near a sluice-gate. There started up, from the gate, or from the rushes, or from the ooze (which was quite in his stagnant way), Old Orlick.

“Halloa!” he growled, “where are you two going?”

“Where should we be going, but home?”

“Well, then,” said he, “I’m jiggered if I don’t see you home!”

This penalty of being jiggered was a favorite supposititious case of his. He attached no definite meaning to the word that I am aware of, but used it, like his own pretended Christian name, to affront mankind, and convey an idea of something savagely damaging. When I was younger, I had had a general belief that if he had jiggered me personally, he would have done it with a sharp and twisted hook.

Biddy was much against his going with us, and said to me in a whisper, “Don’t let him come; I don’t like him.” As I did not like him either, I took the liberty of saying that we thanked him, but we didn’t want seeing home. He received that piece of information with a yell of laughter, and dropped back, but came slouching after us at a little distance."

Commentary:

Orlick here probably does not much resemble the surly journeyman and sordid villain of Dickens's story as serialised in All the Year Round. He certainly looks nothing like the hulking Titan that Marcus stone depicts in physical combat with Joe in Old Orlick Among the Cinders in the 1862 Illustrated Library Edition. here, McLenan transforms Orlick into a sort of Western Desperado.

This tendency to bring in the American milieu is nowhere more evident than in his depiction of the blacksmith's journeyman "old" Orlick as a Western villain in a high-crowned, wide-brimmed "Western" hat . . . in which Biddy wears a decidedly 1860s "poke-bonnet" similar to that worn by Estella in the final Harper's plate. At least McLenan has given his villain gaiters rather than cowboy boots, but the eyes in particular betray a style geared toward caricature than realism, despite the wealth of detail incorporated into each scene such as the pollarded willow, and cattails here.

"Then she softly patted my shoulder in a soothing way"

Chapter 17

F. A. Fraser

c. 1877

Dickens's Great Expectations, Household Edition.

Text Illustrated:

"In short, I turned over on my face when I came to that, and got a good grasp on the hair on each side of my head, and wrenched it well. All the while knowing the madness of my heart to be so very mad and misplaced, that I was quite conscious it would have served my face right, if I had lifted it up by my hair, and knocked it against the pebbles as a punishment for belonging to such an idiot.

Biddy was the wisest of girls, and she tried to reason no more with me. She put her hand, which was a comfortable hand though roughened by work, upon my hands, one after another, and gently took them out of my hair. Then she softly patted my shoulder in a soothing way, while with my face upon my sleeve I cried a little,—exactly as I had done in the brewery yard,—and felt vaguely convinced that I was very much ill-used by somebody, or by everybody; I can’t say which."

Ill Used

Chapter 17

F. W. Pailthorpe

1900

Dickens's Great Expectations, Garnett edition

Text Illustrated:

"In short, I turned over on my face when I came to that, and got a good grasp on the hair on each side of my head, and wrenched it well. All the while knowing the madness of my heart to be so very mad and misplaced, that I was quite conscious it would have served my face right, if I had lifted it up by my hair, and knocked it against the pebbles as a punishment for belonging to such an idiot.

Biddy was the wisest of girls, and she tried to reason no more with me. She put her hand, which was a comfortable hand though roughened by work, upon my hands, one after another, and gently took them out of my hair. Then she softly patted my shoulder in a soothing way, while with my face upon my sleeve I cried a little,—exactly as I had done in the brewery yard,—and felt vaguely convinced that I was very much ill-used by somebody, or by everybody; I can’t say which."

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Peter,

Umm . . . Urgh . . . Oh! Oh! Oh! . . . That Three Jolly Bargemen.

Seriously, you bring together the symbolism for me. I'm getting a better picture of what Dickens is up to. Thanks. I neve..."

Hi Xan

There certainly is much swirling about in the novel so far isn't there? I think you are right on the mark with identifying the forge as an important key to the novel.

It's interesting how one's reading habits are formed. I love the fact that we all bring our insights to The Three Jolly Bargemen and over a pint share our ideas. For me, I love to search for patterns in a novel, and one of my go-to patterns has always been to pay close attention to the use of houses. Who lives there? Why there? What does the house look like, how does it project the owner who lives there, how does it function and fit into the environment? That kind of stuff.

So far we have two major houses in the novel - Satis House and the forge. Pip lives at one but is strongly drawn to the other. Perhaps we will see this pattern evolve. Perhaps? My guess is a definite yes. :-)

By the way. I hope you enjoy By Gaslight by Steven Price. He and his wife live here in Victoria. I would like to think that he got some of the novel's atmosphere from wandering the streets around here at night.

Kim wrote: "Ill Used

Chapter 17

F. W. Pailthorpe

1900

Dickens's Great Expectations, Garnett edition

Text Illustrated:

"In short, I turned over on my face when I came to that, and got a good grasp on the ..."

Thank you, Kim.

Poor Pip. Poor misguided Pip? He wants so much to be what he is not. The three illustrations of him with Biddy by the water serve, to me, to reinforce two ideas. The first is that Pip is miserably unhappy. The second is that Biddy is a kind and patient listener. Pip's confession to Biddy about how unhappy he is finds little sympathy with Biddy. Rather, she tells him, in a very gentle manner, that he is wrong to want more than he already has.

When we look at the Pailthorpe and Fraser illustrations we see boats in the distance. When we look at the McLenan illustration we see, over Pip's right shoulder, a path. On closer inspection the path leads to a fence, not a gate. Can this blocked path suggest that Pip's desire to be someone else, to go somewhere beyond the forge, will be unsuccessful? The trees in the top third of the McLenan illustration are portrayed with solid trunks but little, if any folliage. Again, do the illustrations suggest that Pip's desire to leave the forge are reflected in the sail boats in the distance and the blocked path?

I found the McLenan illustration of Orlick with Biddy and Pip reinforced his earlier one with Biddy and Pip on the river. The Orlick illustration has echoes of Pip in the graveyard. Orlick is said to have "started up" into Pip's awareness. Over Biddy's shoulder appears a structure that looks like a gravestone. Notice also that the tree is blighted like the ones in the earlier McLenan illustration.

Again, the illustrations do more than give us a pictures of the story. Each illustration is an extension of the narrative.

It is hard to have much sympathy for Pip in this chapter. What a casual cruelty he has when he says to Biddy " if I could only get myself to fall in love with you ..." Biddy, much the wiser person, responds "[b]ut you never will, you see."

Here, we have confirmed that Pip understands (as much as an adolescent can) the emotion of love, and realizes that his emotion cannot be directed towards Biddy. We now know, if there were any doubts, that Pip believes he is in love with Estella. We also learn that Biddy is much more wise and intuitive.

This insight into Biddy's character is key for in the next paragraphs when Pip and Biddy encounter Orlick as they "came near the churchyard." Orlick, in an act reminiscent of Pip's convict, "started up ... from the ooze." To further make the connection in the setting and action we are told that Orlick " growled" which reflects both the voice and the animal-like method of eating that Pip witnesses from the convict in the early chapters.

There must be a connection between Pip, Orlick, the churchyard and the criminal. Perhaps that connection is aided by Biddy who comments "don't let him come; I don't like him." Dickens has established Biddy's intuitive nature in this chapter already. Biddy is now living at the forge helping with the care of Mrs. Joe and the forge. What lies ahead at the forge? Why should Biddy fear Orlick?

The adult narrative voice of Pip tells the reader that he knows the forge, Joe and Biddy are the right place to be but then, in a moment "like a destructive missile," Pip's wits are scattered again, and he pined for the world of Miss Havisham and Estella.

Pip is slowly and excruciatingly moving away from the hearth, home and love of Joe and the concern of Biddy and towards the darkness and crumbling world of Satis House. With him, he will take his guilt, his memories of the convict, and a naive belief that to be a gentleman is to solve the puzzles of the universe.

Peter wrote: "It's interesting how one's reading habits are formed. I love the fact that we all bring our insights to The Three Jolly Bargemen and over a pint share our ideas. For me, I love to search for patterns in a novel, and one of my go-to patterns has always been to pay close attention to the use of houses. Who lives there? Why there? What does the house look like, how does it project the owner who lives there, how does it function and fit into the environment? That kind of stuff."

That's a very interesting observation, Peter. I have noticed that I often pay a lot of attention to the language itself, e.g. what kind of metaphors and images are used and what they may evoke and point out. Like that sentence where Dickens compares the grass to the blades of knives, or the sentence you mentioned in your last post, Orlick rising from the mud as though he were some kind of lagoon monster. I also tend to think of character constellations.

It's good we have so many different approaches here!

Peter wrote: "And to think Dickens wrote this at a weekly pace!"

Dickens must have been one of those people who function best under stress. I am definitely not one of them ;-)

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Wow, this is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading the passage."

It didn't occur to me at the time of reading the passage but just when your analysis of Mrs. Joe's behaviour made me think again on the whole situation.

Tristram wrote: "I have noticed that I often pay a lot of attention to the language itself, e.g. what kind of metaphors and images are used and what they may evoke and point out."

I am like this too. The cinematography of vividly constructed phrases, sentences, and passages wow me, but only so long as I don't feel the book was written with a movie in mind. This is why when I reflect on the books that I have most liked I come up with ones like All the Light We Cannot See, Dear Thief, By Gaslight (so far), and Little, Big. But I've gotten better recently at seeing subtle linkages, parallel constructs, and multiple motifs and meanings, and this group has been a big assist.

"Mr. Wopsle’s great-aunt conquered a confirmed habit of living into which she had fallen..."

Look at the way Dickens says this. Her death could have been described a hundred ways and not one would have the effect that Dickens' choice of word construction has. The effect is of a slight delay and then being hit by a hammer (at least for me). He does this lots of times, and its very effective.

It's almost as if she had not only fallen into the habit of living, a strange enough way of putting it, but had fallen also into the rut of living and has been saved of her own bad habit by dying.

Tristram wrote: "That's a very interesting observation, Peter. I have noticed that I often pay a lot of attention to the language itself, e.g. what kind of metaphors and images are used...."

You just look for words I have to go look up to know what they mean.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: ""Mr. Wopsle’s great-aunt conquered a confirmed habit of living into which she had fallen..."

Look at the way Dickens says this. Her death could have been described a hundred ways and not one would..."

That's my favorite line in the chapter.

Peter wrote: "Pip is slowly and excruciatingly moving away from the hearth, home and love of Joe and the concern of Biddy..."

Good. I won't miss him, but I have a feeling he will be taking us along. I feel like Tristram is getting to me. I don't like Pip even though we are supposed to (I guess we are), and he doesn't like little Nell. Of course. in that case no one else doesn't like poor, poor little Nell, he's just being grumpy.

Peter said: "For me, I love to search for patterns in a novel, and one of my go-to patterns has always been to pay close attention to the use of houses. Who lives there? Why there? What does the house look like, how does it project the owner who lives there, how does it function and fit into the environment? That kind of stuff.

You're just looking for birds. :-)

Kim wrote: " Peter wrote: "Pip is slowly and excruciatingly moving away from the hearth, home and love of Joe and the concern of Biddy..."

Good. I won't miss him, but I have a feeling he will be taking us alo..."

No one else likes poor little Nell???? Shall we get up a poll on that question, Kim? ;-) I actually have half a mind of doing it.

Kim wrote: "You just look for words I have to go look up to know what they mean."

People have a habit of telling me that. Maybe it's because I spend more time with books than with people (outside my family), and when it comes to English, which is not my native language, it's just that I hardly ever read modern books but stick to 18th and 19th century literature mostly so that my vocab may be a bit démodé.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: ""Mr. Wopsle’s great-aunt conquered a confirmed habit of living into which she had fallen..."

Look at the way Dickens says this. Her death could have been described a hundred ways and not one would..."

I suspect that Dickens just could not resist the temptation of using that artful and memorable expression even though it might be a bit out of character for Pip.

Kim wrote: " I don't like Pip even though we are supposed to (I guess we are)"

Pip is young and stupid, as most of us were, I suspect. I know I was, and cringe when I think too much about it. So I'm holding out hope that there will be some character growth as we go forward. But, no... right now I'm finding him difficult to like.

As for our Little Nell poll, Tristram, I don't want to feel left out, so please include an option for those of us who haven't yet had the pleasure/misfortune of meeting her.

Mary Lou wrote: "Kim wrote: " I don't like Pip even though we are supposed to (I guess we are)"

Pip is young and stupid, as most of us were, I suspect. I know I was, and cringe when I think too much about it. So I..."

Don't encourage him, his not liking poor Nell is shocking enough. Everyone loved little Nell. People were lining up for the next edition to see what little Nell was doing that month. Poor, poor Nell. :-)

I am looking forward to a rereading of little Nell already.

At a rough guess, our next re-reading of Little Nell will be in 2019, and this time I will be on the wagon again. The problem with Dickens's heroines for me is that even though they may be people you'd like to have around you in real life (and I'm even not too sure about that), as literary characters they are just plain boring.

Tristram wrote: "At a rough guess, our next re-reading of Little Nell will be in 2019, and this time I will be on the wagon again. The problem with Dickens's heroines for me is that even though they may be people y..."

Grump.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks! ;-)

Tristram wrote: "I am reading a sensation novel by Mary E. Braddon at the same time, only at a much quicker pace, and although I enjoy Braddon very much, it becomes obvious to me that Braddon is not able to hold a candle to Dickens when it comes to density of detail and hidden meanings."

Ditto in my case, only mine is by Ann Radcliffe. Very exciting, very Gothic, but simply a story, not a world.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: ""Mr. Wopsle’s great-aunt conquered a confirmed habit of living into which she had fallen..."

Look at the way Dickens says this. Her death could have been described a hundred ways and not one would..."

Nicely picked out. It is indeed an extraordinary way of putting it. I can't think of a single author who could have come up with the same thing, especially in the short time Dickens had to write each of these episodes.