Dragons & Jetpacks discussion

Ok, I admit I'm not a huge Stephenson fan. But 20 pages in and it's about pizza delivery in the future? Wow I hope this gets better soon.

Tried to read it twice and it just doesnt work for me. It all feels a bit dense and a bit dated.

This was published when I was 16, and I recognised all the things 'the kids' thought were cool back then. I probably would've loved it if I'd read it in 1992 but I got around to it in 2015 and late-30s me found it cynical and childish. And yes, very dated. I guess it's one of those zeitgeist books.

Ryan wrote: "This was published when I was 16, and I recognised all the things 'the kids' thought were cool back then. I probably would've loved it if I'd read it in 1992 but I got around to it in 2015 and late..."

That sounds worrying - I generally don't care for books with worldviews that are very cynical, but I'll still give it a try.

Sorry, I didn't mean the worldview was cynical but rather the author's apparent method for choosing some of his subject matter.

Ryan wrote: "Sorry, I didn't mean the worldview was cynical but rather the author's apparent method for choosing some of his subject matter."

Hmm, I suspect I'll understand better what you mean after I read it. :)

Yeah, the science parts of the story felt dated. When I listened to it last year it was interesting that the cultural parts of the book still felt reasonably relevant. Does anyone reading it this year still find it that way?

It's a slow, complicated plot that takes a while to get going. What I remembered liking the most was how Stephenson wove in Sumerian myths to create a nuerolinguistic virus. Very different from what I had read previously. I do think that the story peaks in the middle and that the grand finale was lacking.

Hiro Protagonist as a main character name? The play on words made my eyes roll.

I started the audiobook during my morning commute today, only got to about 5% in (which is chapter 3, I think). Like Wayland, I'm still in pizza delivery mode.

Wayland wrote: "Ok, I admit I'm not a huge Stephenson fan. But 20 pages in and it's about pizza delivery in the future? Wow I hope this gets better soon."

Boy I just came here to write the same thing. What a sad state of affairs. Reminds me of a creative writing class that we had to pick a subject every day and write about it for 6 weeks. There were some very strange subjects by the end of that 6 weeks. Well this is one strange subject.

This is slow going. I've only made it to about the 30% mark. I think I would've given up if I were reading this myself rather than listening to the audiobook. So far it seems like the story keeps getting bogged down in its own minutiae.

I read this for the first time a few years back. I remember liking the obviously goofy parts (i.e., the pizza delivery of the future) but thought it struggled to be comical without overdoing it.

Part of its charm when it was released was that it was parodying a lot of the cyberpunk books of its time, which were often just as ridiculous while trying to be serious.

Finished. The bits about Sumerian myth were vaguely interesting. The idea of a hacker as ancient god and humans being programmable and vulnerable to computer viruses was weird. I really could have done without reading about a 15 year old girl having sex and her booby trapped.... umm.... crotch? Trying to not get too graphic here. All in all, really didn't enjoy this much. Finished it because I'm stubborn and, at the moment, there are no books I've started that I haven't finished, although one did take three tries.

I'm at 67% now...having made it through some lengthy exposition on toilet paper in the workplace.

Veronica wrote: "I'm at 67% now...having made it through some lengthy exposition on toilet paper in the workplace."

Yeah, if that was supposed to be satire, it really shoulda been a LOT shorter. Then again, one could argue that for the book.

This is a bit of a struggle - but I do remember the avatars in the web and talking and the whole inviting to a room thingy. Ah Nostalgia...

I dunno I loved this book. I thought the neurolinguistic virus idea was really interesting, and the floating city was just cool.
I was really into the satire here too... maybe b/c my job is at a pretty bureaucratic workplace I enjoyed the commentary on how govt coding works and how gated communities were a pseudo country-corporate set-up.

I really enjoyed this book also - I consider it one of my all-time favorites, although I recall it bogs down in the middle with the Ancient Sumerian info dump. It's been a while since I read it though, so I wonder if it just hasn't aged well. I'll have to pick it up again one of these days.

I'm about 40% and losing the will to live. Is it one of those books that gets better or should it have hit its peak by now and Snow Crash and I will never be friends?
I hate to abandon a book before half way but it's a struggle. Can anyone give me hope?

It's been almost three years since I read Snow Crash, but I distinctly remember not liking it as much as I'd hoped to. I got a chuckle out of Hiro Protagonist and the future of pizza delivery. Lots of the ideas were great, with the mythology tying into virtual reality, but the story structure didn't do it for me. The back of my edition of the book explains that it was originally meant to be a graphic novel, which actually makes sense. I loved Stephenson's Cryptonomicon and Reamde (and the first half or so of Seveneves) but this one didn't resonate.

Lel, I have doubts that you'll find any redemption in the last 60% if you're feeling that way now. I don't like to discourage people from finishing books, especially by authors I like, but this one in particular kind of wanders. I'm not sure if it has a peak, as far as I can recall.

I read this last year for my in-person book club. I gave it 3 stars but cannot remember why. I only remember I was relieved to read the last page. Maybe some of the cyberpunk parody felt nostalgic? (per Mike's comment above.) :) And I hadn't looked at it as a parody at the time but makes sense. I don't generally enjoy parody.

I got to 50% and decided that life is just too short for me to carry on reading this one.

I didnt like the writing style, the characters didn't do anything for me and it just kept going off on a tangent that seemed to just want to show off how clever the author is rather than add to the story.

I actually quite liked the start with the crazy pizza delivery but after that it all just went downhill for me. I hate not finishing books but in the words of Scotty 'I just cant do it captain'.

I finally motivated myself to listen to the last hour and a half of the audiobook. Lel, I'm going to join you in the 'give it 1 star club'. If this was parody or satire it went on way too long. It had a cool idea but it just chewed and chewed on it until all the flavor was gone.

And I want my Audible credit back.

Veronica wrote: "It had a cool idea but it just chewed and chewed on it until all the flavor was gone."

Great metaphor.

Just started the first chapter and it looked like quite a good action packed start until I realised the samurai sword wilding Mafia bad guy in the souped up car - was delivering Pizza!!! What!

Thanks, Ryan.

I think I am giving up on this one. I'm so disappointed because I really loved Seveneves and had high hopes about Snow Crash. But wow...it is really boring and I have zero interest in continuing. My husbands boss loved this book and promises me that "everything ties together" at the end, but OMG....I don't think I can invest any more of my life in this book! I'm sure part of it is that the genre itself (cyberpunk) is not anything I am interested in.

Has any book been as universally loathed by D&J as this one?

I know Cinder is one a few of the Mods look back on with hatred but this has been a humdinger. I didn't like this book but I can see how it may have gone down better closer to its publication than now.

Ryan wrote: "Has any book been as universally loathed by D&J as this one?"

Been a few negatives, but I don't recall it being quite this pervasive before.

I'm hoping to start this one at the weekend, but the comments here aren't encouraging! I've had mixed feelings about other Stephenson books I've read (loved Anathem, bored in Cryptonomicon, tolerated Quicksilver) so I'm still planning to give it a go. Quite interesting to see how many people here feel so strongly against it...

Vinca wrote: "I'm hoping to start this one at the weekend, but the comments here aren't encouraging! I've had mixed feelings about other Stephenson books I've read (loved Anathem, bored in Cryptonomicon, tolerat..."

If you've loved other books by him, you might enjoy it. But then again I loved Seveneves....
There were times that Seveneves REALLY dragged on though, but for some reason, it was more tolerable for that book than it was in Snow Crash. Like I said though, I am sure it is because the genre (cyberpunk) isn't very interesting to me personally. I am still willing to give his other books a try.

Paul wrote: "I know Cinder is one a few of the Mods look back on with hatred but this has been a humdinger. I didn't like this book but I can see how it may have gone down better closer to its publication than ..."

yeah, I think you are right Paul. I have to say though, I enjoyed Cinder a hell of a lot more than I enjoyed this one!

I'm feeling pretty good now about my decision to not bother with it (so many other things to read). Did those who voted for it already read it, or were they just hoping it was good?

I voted for it...was hoping it was good.

Jessica wrote: yeah, I think you are right Paul. I have to say though, I enjoyed Cinder a hell of a lot more than I enjoyed this one!

Agreed. Cinder had its moments. This one... not so much, IMHO.

Reading the comments here, I"m with Audrey. Glad I chose to skip this one.
The summary sounded meh to me and from the sounds of it I would have felt that way about the book itself.

I am mildly surprised by the amount of negative comments this book has generated. Overall, I thought it was ok, and it generally has very favorable reviews outside of this group. But even if this book isn't up your alley, I never thought it was serious enough to actively dislike. At worst, I thought it would be a book that people simply disregarded and forgot about.

Maybe after 25 years, this books is simply outdated and sci-fi readers as a whole have out grown it.

I'm not surprised at all by the negativity. In my experience SF readers tend to be rather unaccepting of things that are aren't current. In almost every case in the various book groups I've belonged to, people don't like older books that are perhaps outdated etc. Some of this could be because you didn't experience the time period in which this was set and so some of the references and the general cultural milieu are, inescapably, not part of your background. But I always find it rather disheartening that readers who read in a genre that asks us to accept the impossible (most fantasy) or the unknown and strange (most SF, esp SF with aliens) find it so hard to deal with a book from another period in the genre's history.

Rather obviously, if you don't like the book, stop. And if you don't like the book it does NOT mean you're wrong at all. But I'd encourage people to at least try the book (any book).

I have no issue with the book being dated. I simply didn't care for it. I thought it wasn't well written, and, as I've said before, when you make a plot point of a 15 year old girl having sex, which is illegal in many places, you're going to lose some readers.

I agree, try new things. But I'd say the majority opinion on this one wasn't remotely positive.

It's an interesting observation that older sci-fi tends to be harder to swallow. I'm also of the opinion that it was the style that didn't work for me, because I enjoyed many of the concepts in this case, but now that you mention it, I've definitely found my tastes leaning more towards the modern works. Robert Heinlein disappointed me. I didn't like William Gibson as much as I'd expected. Love PKD so far, but can't think of too many other classic examples that I truly enjoyed. I'm still willing to broaden my horizons!

Wayland wrote: "when you make a plot point of a 15 year old girl having sex, which is illegal in many places, you're going to lose some readers. "
That one is difficult. Keeping readers might not always be the ultimate target of an author. Also, he might not even care, because that age is perfectly legal in many countries with large populations. Additionally, this is a SF elaborating on a future where you can expect that legislation is different and the author might want to demonstrate exactly that things will be more liberal. After all, you weren't offended by the fact that late pizza drivers might be eliminated, although current legislation would clearly not allow that one.
SF readers are quite liberal concerning sexuality - I haven't heard of problems with gay people in novels, although it is illegal inmore than 70 countries in the world.

I disagree with the notion that SF readers tend to dismiss books that are not current. Many SF books that are 25+ years old still have devoted followings: Dune (1965), Fahrenheit 451 (1953), Neuromancer (1984), Ender's Game (1985), Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (1979), 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968), most Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov books, not to mention the reboots of Westworld, A Handmaiden's Tale, Dr. Who, Star Trek, and Star Wars.

When books seem to be outdated, it usually is not because of the technological content of the book, but rather the general tone or attitude. Most books have a cultural or social subtext, which may lose its impact when read in a different time period. For example, a lot of the SF books from the 1960's might have a counter-culture aspect which doesn't translate well into today's world.

With regard to Snow Crash, it very much seems like an adolescent boy's fantasy. Given the time and context when it was written (again, I think part of it was meant to be a satire of the MTV-cyberpunk era), it worked very well. However, now it seems a little immature.

Mike - I'm simply speaking of what I've seen in book groups I've belonged to. Sure, my experience could be different from the norm. To clarify, it's usually younger/newer readers who react this way. People who read Dune, etc when they were fairly new and influential tend to still really love those works if they did originally but newer readers tend not to (NOTE the word 'tend' - of course this isn't a universal thing, even in my experience).

Snow Crash is less an adolescent fantasy that 1) a hacker fantasy (remember this came out in a world that was basically pre-internet) and 2) it's his first published book and, IIRC, the second he ever wrote.

@wayland - "...when you make a plot point of a 15 year old girl having sex, which is illegal in many places, you're going to lose some readers. ..." This is kind of what I mean. You're applying real world, 21st century mores to a futuristic world where many things have broken down and that scene specifically takes place on an anarchic, lawless flotilla. Again, SFF asks us to accept aliens, magic, etc etc... but when we see something outside our contemporary experience, we reject it. Also, how do you react to depictions of rape, murder, etc in most fantasy? If this disturbs you, I can't see you being OK with virtually ANY grimdark stuff yet you've read and rated highly some Abercrombie. Uh...?

For the record, (as if I should have to note this...) I'm not condoning adults having sex with underage minors in the real world at all. That said, I think it's precious that people still believe it's rare that minors have sex. They usually just have it with each other.

I have no issue with minors having sex with each other if they are mature enough to handle it. That's a very tricky thing to handle. For example, I think it's horrific that if two teens have sex, the girl might get a bad rep out of it while the guy gets charged with statutory rape. Yes, that's assuming a hetero-norm couple.

I DO have an issue with adults having sex with minors. I've worked way too many sexual assault cases. You're generalizing a lot about my tastes from one review.

And, again, I don't think it's the subject matter in this book. The overwhelming reaction thus far appears to be it's poorly written, or, at best, hasn't aged well. That doesn't mean the people who like it are wrong; individual tastes are just that- individual. I do think it might suggest something when so many don't like the book.

I think you are overgeneralizing. A really tiny minority of readers expressed an opinion. That isn't overwhelming at all. Speaking of majorities, more than 180,000 GR readers came to an average of 4.02 stars which is pretty positive. This has accumulated over a couple of years, of course but I consider it as a contemporary vote.
My own opinion does count not yet. I'm 10% in only, but so far I'm really enjoying it. The typical Stephenson qualities like his narrative voice, or his creativity shine shine through already.
TIL that the term Avatar has been coined in this novel. The multiverse is a kind of Second Life experience way before any MMORPG had been created, together with the typical sociological phenomenons like cheap mass Avatars vs. exclusive ones. So, at least a couple of technological innovations transport very well to our current times. Others, like video recorders or those monitors, not so much.

I think Wayland was only referring to the reactions to this book in this group which have been, IMO, leaning heavily towards the negative. We read Necromancer in this group last year and I enjoyed that book far more than this one. The idea was good but I think he drug it out too long and, for me, it was a slow slog to the end from somewhere around the midpoint.

I too enjoyed Neuromancer a lot more than this.

I'm going to make an analogy here and then stop commenting.

When DC Comics came out with Man Of Steel in 2013, it had very different reactions. Some thought it was an interesting new take on the character and loved it. Some thought it was a bad version of a beloved character and hated it. Since I'm active in reviewing hero themed stuff and a mod on a board about that elsewhere, what was eventually agreed on was that, love it or hate it, Man of Steel was probably the most divisive comic book movie made.

Sounds to me like Snow Crash is heading that way for within this group.

Just a thought.

I loved Neuromancer and Snow Crash both, but they are definitely very different books from each other.

I read Neuromancer in the mid-to-late 1980s, not long after it was first published. It would be very hard for someone to read it today and feel the same impact as back then. The book popularized (or invented, depending on who you talk to) the term "cyberspace" and was probably the biggest uncredited influence on The Matrix and its sequels. The idea of someone plugging into a virtual world, and having that virtual world affect the world around you, was pretty unique at the time. The book kicked off the whole "cyberpunk" phase that was prevalent in SF for the next 10-15 years. The plot was really incidental, which has seemingly become a hallmark of Gibson's as he has advanced into the tricky subjects of pants and boutique hotels in his later less compelling works.

Snow Crash, on the other hand, I also read a few years after it was published, probably closer to the "Y2K" hysteria of the late 1990s. In the heart of the dot-com boom, prior to the 9/11 aftermath that overtook the country for the early part of the new millennium, Snow Crash was a breath of fresh air among all the too serious, never profitable internet startups that would become nothing more than a disturbing memory ("HomeGrocer" anyone? How about "DrKoop"?). The suggestion that the virtual world would someday make the real world irrelevant was nicely lampooned by Stephenson. The book made me laugh out loud a few times - just thinking about America striving to be the best in the world at delivering pizzas under 30 minutes still makes me chuckle. The middle part was slow, but it was the ancient Sumerian info dump that made me realize how smart Stephenson was and what an interesting concept he had tackled, underneath some of the plot silliness. I regret I've never read another of his fictions, although I hope to get to one later this year (haven't completely decided which one yet).

I hate to hear that not everyone enjoyed Snow Crash, or Neuromancer for that matter. Maybe the books were a product of their times and will never again be as relevant as they were back then. That's probably true of a lot of SF - it's the rare ones that can hold up forever. Anyway, I re-read Neuromancer and the rest of Gibson's Sprawl and Bridge series a couple years ago - maybe it's time for me to re-read Snow Crash too, just to see if it still has the same effect that it did when I first read it.

Randy wrote: "I read Neuromancer in the mid-to-late 1980s, not long after it was first published. It would be very hard for someone to read it today and feel the same impact as back then. The book popularized (or invented, depending on who you talk to) the term "cyberspace" "

When Neuromancer was published 1984, my book friends already rumoured about that new SF revolution, I guess they were pretty en vogue (no wonder, they were translators and publishers here in Germany).
Gibson wasn't late in the game, but he wasn't the first. The term was first brought up by Bruce Bethke who wrote the eponymous short story (you can read it here) in 1980 and sold it in 1982. It had ancestors with Brunner's The Shockwave Rider which sits in somewhere between New Wave and Cyberpunk. Aesthetics was defined by the movie Blade Runner from 1982 (which was based loosely on P.K. Dick's Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?). The Encyclopaedia Britannica gives Gardner Dozois the honour to have popularized the term.
So, Gibson played a very important role, but don't forget Bruce Sterling, Rudy Rucker's 1982 Software, Pad Cadigan, just to name a few.
Having said that, Snow Crash is quite late in the genre, but I never read that seminal work before. Those others deserve a re-read.