The Old Curiosity Club discussion

Hello Fellow-Curiosities,

I wrote the recaps a few days ago and am posting them today, a little bit earlier, because I don't know how much time I will find tomorrow: Chapters 41 and 42 don’t take long in recapping because they mainly fill some gaps in our knowledge of things that happened prior to the story told by Pip.

In Chapter 41, we see Pip and Herbert discussing the question what to do with Magwitch. Pip realizes the Magwitch’s

”boast that he had made me a gentleman, […] was made for me quite as much as for himself”

and he tells Herbert that he can no longer accept to be the object of Magwitch’s benevolence. At the same time, he painfully realizes that he has learnt no trade and acquired no knowledge so that the only thing he could possibly do is become a soldier. Herbert quickly talks him out of this, offering him to help him to a place at Clarriker’s, not dreaming of it that it is actually due to the money paid by Pip (and provided by Magwitch) that he was given the chance of a partnership with Clarriker. Still, Pip the narrator remembers that at that time Herbert’s behaviour made him feel what a blessing it was to have a true friend in life. Reading that, I could not help thinking that Pip is rather thankless in not considering Joe in that light and context. After all, Joe is his oldest friend and has done a lot for him – such as giving him a home in the first place, offering him to learn a decent and respected craft and protecting him from Tickler – and now Pip only thinks of Herbert when he thinks about friendship.

In Chapter 42, we learn about Magwitch’s antecedents, and finally the character is fleshed out more and more. Just consider the way he starts his story:

”’I’ve been done everything to, pretty well—except hanged. I’ve been locked up as much as a silver tea-kittle. I’ve been carted here and carted there, and put out of this town, and put out of that town, and stuck in the stocks, and whipped and worried and drove. I’ve no more notion where I was born than you have—if so much. I first become aware of myself down in Essex, a thieving turnips for my living. Summun had run away from me—a man—a tinker—and he’d took the fire with him, and left me wery cold.

‘I know’d my name to be Magwitch, chrisen’d Abel. How did I know it? Much as I know’d the birds’ names in the hedges to be chaffinch, sparrer, thrush. I might have thought it was all lies together, only as the birds’ names come out true, I supposed mine did.

‘So fur as I could find, there warn’t a soul that see young Abel Magwitch, with us little on him as in him, but wot caught fright at him, and either drove him off, or took him up. I was took up, took up, took up, to that extent that I reg’larly grow’d up took up. […]’”

In this vein, we learn about the deprivations young Magwitch had to deal with and how this paved his way into crime. While the author does not excuse Magwitch’s crime – we actually hardly ever learn about any of his crimes, as he keeps saying that whatever he did, “is worked out and paid for” –, he at least allows the reader to form some idea of how a man like Magwitch could have become the man he is. If I compare this life-story with the story of the parish boy told in Oliver Twist, I think there is some development in Dickens as a writer.

Magwitch tells his two listeners – and us – how he fell in with Compeyson, who is the other convict, the one that Magwitch fought on the marshes and whose face he smashed. He describes Compeyson the following way:

”’He set up fur a gentleman, this Compeyson, and he’d been to a public boarding-school and had learning. He was a smooth one to talk, and was a dab at the ways of gentlefolks. He was good-looking too.’

What might this characterization have taught Magwitch with regard to his project of making a gentleman by providing young Pip with money? What else might Dickens want to tell his readers?

Magwitch also tells about the episode of a dying accomplice of Compeyson’s, a man called Arthur, who on his deathbed is haunted by the vision of a woman whose heart he says he has broken. After the convict has finished his story, Herbert pushes Pip a book into which he has written that Miss Havisham’s step-brother was called Arthur, and that Compeyson is the name of the lady’s unfaithful suitor. I don’t know about you, but I couldn’t help wondering that Magwitch, not knowing anything about Miss Havisham and the possible interest she could hold for his two listeners, should dwell in so much detail on this single episode of his eventful life while he did not say a lot about other episodes that might have affected him more.

We are also told that Magwitch seems to have genuine affection for Pip, probably as the only person who ever stood by him, and that this fills Pip with abhorrence although he felt great pity for Magwitch when the convict told his story.

Tristram

Your question "What else might Dickens want to tell his readers?" takes me back, before I go forward.

In the end of Chapter IX the mature Pip as narrator asks the reader "Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, and that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day." We have discussed this comment before, but I think it's about time to dust it off again.

The moment Herbert passes his notebook to Pip and shows how Arthur, Compeyson, Magwitch, and Miss Havisham are connected the plot of the novel both expands and contracts. The key to the future plot, I think, rests in the words "bound," " first link, "and especially " long chain of of iron and gold."

Iron and chains immediately link Pip and Magwitch. The first link was of iron, but now, with Pip's expectations revealed, we understand that those expectations that were once thought so golden are truly built from iron and chains.

Miss Havisham's wealth was sought more than her love. Consequently, she has chained herself to the past and turned Estella into an evil Midas. Rich to the eye, but containing an iron heart, Estella's task in life is to chain men to hopes of gaining her love while she imprisons them in a hopeless quest.

Most importantly, however, is how we should read the novel forward. Dickens speaks of a "memorable day" that will determine a person's future. Pip, now fully aware that his expectations are lost, must determine how he will continue to find his way forward from the day he encountered Magwitch in the graveyard. We are in the final stages of Pip's expectations. Dickens has brought Magwitch back into the plot. Magwitch has, at the least, an indirect connection to Miss Havisham.

Much like Magwitch rose from the graveyard in Chapter I he has arisen again to claim Pip as his gentleman. I would suggest he can also be seen as a surrogate father. Indeed, Magwitch at one point has already said "I'm your second father." With this burden Pip must now act anew. He cannot cling to any false hopes, he cannot rely on Miss Havisham to save him, he cannot dream of winning Estella's heart and he cannot return to the child-world of the forge, even though Joe would no doubt welcome him. Pip must move forward.

Whether Pip will be successful or not is entirely dependent on Pip reframing his life, his expectations, and finally acting on his own. To borrow a phrase from David Copperfield, whether Pip turns out to be the hero of his life or not depends entirely on what and how he acts on this his second "memorable day."

Peter wrote: "...whether Pip turns out to be the hero of his life or not depends entirely on what and how he acts on this his second "memorable day.""

I would say that Pip had three memorable days. His first interaction with Magwitch in the graveyard, this new revelation and, the third, the day he was called to play at Satis House.

I can't help but wonder how Pip's life would be different if he'd never met Miss H. and Estella. He still would have been endowed, still would have gone to London and become friends with Herbert. But his obsession (I just can't call it "love") with Estella and his assumptions about the source of his wealth have shaped him more than anything else, I think.

Mary Lou wrote: "Peter wrote: "...whether Pip turns out to be the hero of his life or not depends entirely on what and how he acts on this his second "memorable day.""

I would say that Pip had three memorable days..."

Yes. That makes sense. It seems that Joe has been completely forgotten with all the excitement and action in London.

I hope that he, like Magwitch, finds himself back in the plot soon.

Mary Lou wrote: "Peter wrote: "...whether Pip turns out to be the hero of his life or not depends entirely on what and how he acts on this his second "memorable day.""

I would say that Pip had three memorable days..."

One might even say that probably Pip would have turned his great expectations to more use since he would not have been snubbed and humiliated by Estella and the old hag, and maybe he would not have developed that feeling of inferiority, which now makes him over-compensate his past anguishes by avoiding the company of those he deems too lowly and uncouth, although he used to be best friends with them.

Tristram wrote: "If I compare this life-story with the story of the parish boy told in Oliver Twist, I think there is some development in Dickens as a writer."

If you are comparing Magwitch with Oliver Twist then I know you don't care for Magwitch. Grump.

"When I says to Compeyson,'Once out of this court, I'll smash that face o' yours!' Ain't it Compeyson as prays the judge to be protected, and gets two turnkeys stood betwixt us?"

An illustration for the Household Edition of Dickens's Great Expectations

Text Illustrated:

"And when the verdict come, warn’t it Compeyson as was recommended to mercy on account of good character and bad company, and giving up all the information he could agen me, and warn’t it me as got never a word but Guilty? And when I says to Compeyson, ‘Once out of this court, I’ll smash that face of yourn!’ ain’t it Compeyson as prays the Judge to be protected, and gets two turnkeys stood betwixt us? And when we’re sentenced, ain’t it him as gets seven year, and me fourteen, and ain’t it him as the Judge is sorry for, because he might a done so well, and ain’t it me as the Judge perceives to be a old offender of wiolent passion, likely to come to worse?”

He had worked himself into a state of great excitement, but he checked it, took two or three short breaths, swallowed as often, and stretching out his hand towards me said, in a reassuring manner, “I ain’t a going to be low, dear boy!”

"When I says to Compeyson,'Once out of this court, I'll smash that face o' yours!' Ain't it Compeyson as prays the judge to be protected, and gets two turnkeys stood betwixt us?"

F. A. Fraser

1910

Library Edition

"Compeyson, he looks at me very noticing, and I look at him. He has a watch and a chain and a ring and a breast-pin and a handsome suit of clothes. 'To judge from appearances, you're out of luck,' says Compeyson to me." [A slightly condensed form of the text in Chapter 42.]

Text Illustrated:

“At Epsom races, a matter of over twenty years ago, I got acquainted wi’ a man whose skull I’d crack wi’ this poker, like the claw of a lobster, if I’d got it on this hob. His right name was Compeyson; and that’s the man, dear boy, what you see me a pounding in the ditch, according to what you truly told your comrade arter I was gone last night.

“He set up fur a gentleman, this Compeyson, and he’d been to a public boarding-school and had learning. He was a smooth one to talk, and was a dab at the ways of gentlefolks. He was good-looking too. It was the night afore the great race, when I found him on the heath, in a booth that I know’d on. Him and some more was a sitting among the tables when I went in, and the landlord (which had a knowledge of me, and was a sporting one) called him out, and said, ‘I think this is a man that might suit you,’—meaning I was.

“Compeyson, he looks at me very noticing, and I look at him. He has a watch and a chain and a ring and a breast-pin and a handsome suit of clothes.

“‘To judge from appearances, you’re out of luck,’ says Compeyson to me.

“‘Yes, master, and I’ve never been in it much.’ (I had come out of Kingston Jail last on a vagrancy committal. Not but what it might have been for something else; but it warn’t.)

“‘Luck changes,’ says Compeyson; ‘perhaps yours is going to change.’

“I says, ‘I hope it may be so. There’s room.’

“‘What can you do?’ says Compeyson.

“‘Eat and drink,’ I says; ‘if you’ll find the materials.’

“Compeyson laughed, looked at me again very noticing, giv me five shillings, and appointed me for next night. Same place.

“I went to Compeyson next night, same place, and Compeyson took me on to be his man and pardner. And what was Compeyson’s business in which we was to go pardners? Compeyson’s business was the swindling, handwriting forging, stolen bank-note passing, and such-like. All sorts of traps as Compeyson could set with his head, and keep his own legs out of and get the profits from and let another man in for, was Compeyson’s business. He’d no more heart than a iron file, he was as cold as death, and he had the head of the Devil afore mentioned."

Here's a new one for us, sorry I can't find out who the artist was, not yet anyway.



Chapter 42

Text Illustrated:

“Dear boy and Pip’s comrade. I am not a going fur to tell you my life like a song, or a story-book. But to give it you short and handy, I’ll put it at once into a mouthful of English. In jail and out of jail, in jail and out of jail, in jail and out of jail. There, you’ve got it. That’s my life pretty much, down to such times as I got shipped off, arter Pip stood my friend.

“I’ve been done everything to, pretty well—except hanged. I’ve been locked up as much as a silver tea-kittle. I’ve been carted here and carted there, and put out of this town, and put out of that town, and stuck in the stocks, and whipped and worried and drove. I’ve no more notion where I was born than you have—if so much. I first become aware of myself down in Essex, a thieving turnips for my living. Summun had run away from me—a man—a tinker—and he’d took the fire with him, and left me wery cold.

“I know’d my name to be Magwitch, chrisen’d Abel. How did I know it? Much as I know’d the birds’ names in the hedges to be chaffinch, sparrer, thrush. I might have thought it was all lies together, only as the birds’ names come out true, I supposed mine did.

“So fur as I could find, there warn’t a soul that see young Abel Magwitch, with us little on him as in him, but wot caught fright at him, and either drove him off, or took him up. I was took up, took up, took up, to that extent that I reg’larly grow’d up took up."

Here is one of Magwitch, also a new one for us.

Kim

Wow. Thank you. A fresh crop of illustrators.

The Furniss style is becoming more familiar to me. The characters all seem to be longish and the lines forming the characters make the people pop. Over the shoulder of the seated man centre-left there is the faint outline of a skeletal-like man in a top hat with a long pipe in his hand. Why? There also appears to be two other faces lightly sketched to the centre and above the main figures. I cannot recall Furniss using this suggestive illustrative style before.

The coloured illustration threw me for a bit of a loop. Ignoring Kyd, which is somewhat easy, we have not seen too many other illustrations in colour (with the exception of the delightful ones by Leech in A Christmas Carol). It took me a bit of time to adjust to the new look. Can't say I like this new-look Dickens in colour. Strange. The coloured illustrations of A Christmas Carol are magnificent. Perhaps because I want the illustrations to look 19C?

The Magwitch in a bowler hat really sent me for a loop. I like it. Again, it was interesting how the illustrator created a sub-text of commentary by including this paratext. To the top left of the illustration we have the representation of five stamps. To the right of the bowler hat the name Magwitch is found with a right-hand print situated just above another hand with a finger pointed at Magwitch. Below the pointing hand we find a ghostly face represented, and then in the bottom right portion of the illustration a representation of a skull and crossbones. There appears in the bottom left of the illustration a patch of blueish-grey with the outline of some form of leaves. Finally, a representation of a left-hand print is found. Did I miss anything?

These features could lead us to an interesting inquiry of para-text meaning.

Peter wrote: "Kim

Wow. Thank you. A fresh crop of illustrators.

The Furniss style is becoming more familiar to me. The characters all seem to be longish and the lines forming the characters make the people po..."

You always see so much more in these illustrations than I do! I love it when you take an illustration that I've looked at enough to make sure it goes at the right place and to pick out text that matches it, and yet you show me all the things that I never see. It's great.

Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "Kim

Wow. Thank you. A fresh crop of illustrators.

The Furniss style is becoming more familiar to me. The characters all seem to be longish and the lines forming the characters make..."

Kim

I have you to thank for my interest in the illustrations. Since you began posting the illustrations with the commentaries I have been fascinated with the relationships Dickens had with his illustrators. That has lead me to do reading on them all, but with a special focus on Hablot K Browne. I guess some of the information sunk into my tiny brain since I began to "see" more when I combined your commentaries with the various texts I read. I've reviewed some of the books here on Goodreads if you want to take a peek.

So, thank you.

Kim wrote: "Try this one sometime Peter, let me know what you think of the Great Expectations art on this site.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/2410833..."

Who knew Dickens has created yet another industry with modern visual interpretations of his work? Thanks for the link.

Somehow, I'm happily stuck with the pleasure of the original illustrators. More and more I am coming to realize that I don't fit very well into the 21C.

I'm struck by our two new illustrators. The first scene is so sparse - just the characters, a fireplace, and an empty mantel. Only one log on the fire, and even the painting above the mantle seems to be a blank canvas.

The second illustration, as Peter points out, is filled with so much that we can't be sure we've noticed it all.

While the one of Magwitch is far more interesting - almost interactive - I like the other more. For the first time, I feel like the artist has captured Pip and Herbert's youth. In so many of the others they seem much older than they truly are. But would it have hurt to put a knick-knack or two on the mantel?

Peter wrote: "Who knew Dickens has created yet another industry with modern visual interpretations of his work? ..."

Who knew that there are so many artists out there whose modern visual interpretations of his art are totally baffling to me?

Nothing to add really. These are all great comments. I just realised that I would quite happily have continued to take Magwitch's money. I think ... if only Pip could have swallowed his pride. (Maybe he will! ...). Abel's offering was hugely generous and it made him happy to give it. It was a mutually satisfactory arrangement- or could have been ...

Hilary wrote: "Nothing to add really. These are all great comments. I just realised that I would quite happily have continued to take Magwitch's money. I think ... if only Pip could have swallowed his pride. (May..."

Thanks for bringing this up, Hilary - it's something I've thought about. Why is it any worse for Pip to accept money from a convict than it is from a batty old woman? Magwitch earned it - it wasn't acquired through nefarious means. The fact that he's not able to reside in England means there's no reason that the identity of Pip's benefactor will become public. Why, indeed, is Pip emphatic about the arrangement coming to an end? More foolish pride, I guess.

Oh, Mary Lou, you put another spin on this idea. Of course, it's ridiculous that in a way Pip is comparing the two possible, one actual, donors of his fortune. Wealth at the hands of Magwitch appears to be sullied in Pip's eyes. I wonder, also, whether Pip is still wary of the ex-con. Magwitch doesn't have many to speak for him, other than, perhaps, Jaggers. So Pip is taking this once wicked man at face value in many ways.

There is certainly the snob aspect here. Even though Miss Haversham is 'batty', as you say, Mary Lou, (love that word 'batty') she is posh. So no matter how many cobwebs may make her house their home or how many creatures of the night may dine out on her putrid cake, she is still the sponsor of choice. The class system had a lot to answer for.

Mary Lou wrote: "I can't help but wonder how Pip's life would be different if he'd never met Miss H. and Estella. He still would have been endowed, still would have gone to London and become friends with Herbert.."

One and two, yes. I'm not so sure about being friends with Herbert; wasn't much of that built on their fight in the garden and their recognition of each other on meeting in London? They might have developed their friendship anyhow, but I don't think that's certain.

Hilary wrote: "Nothing to add really. These are all great comments. I just realised that I would quite happily have continued to take Magwitch's money. I think ... if only Pip could have swallowed his pride. (May..."

I agree with you. It would be a gift to take Magwitch's money with gratitude and appreciation. It's a shame for both that Pip's prejudices prohibit that, at least for the time being.

Everyman wrote: " It would be a gift to take Magwitch's money with gratitude and appreciation. "

Something so many people don't seem to realize - graciously accepting a gift or a kindness can be a gift in itself.

'Graciously accepting a gift or a kindness can be a gift in itself'. I love this Mary Lou. I hope that this may find its way into my conversation. This is a quotation worthy of recognition!
Thank you Mary Lou and Everyman for underlining something that in our childhoods would have spoken of essential good manners.

Peter has had some great thoughts about the different presentations of Magwitch in the illustrations Kim posted, and I find it very difficult to add anything to them. Instead, I would like to make some suggestions based on the name Dickens picked for his convict - namely "Abel", which strikes me in two ways.

One very obvious point is that it is a homophone to "able" and seems to imply that Magwitch, for all the difficulties he had to go through in his deplorable life, and for all the advantages with which he started, is able to achieve something, once he left his British life behind. He built up a completely new existence, supported only by the inheritence his former employer left him, which he turned into even more money, and - as Everyman pointed out - this money is earned in an honest way. In this respect, we can contrast him to Miss Havisham, who is anything but "able", living the life of a batty - I, too, like that word - recluse, nourishing her vengeful spirit on reminiscences of past injuries instead of returning to life in the spirit of letting bygones be bygones. She has never worked for her money and has never produced or built up anything; instead she has allowed her home to fall into decay, even taking a sick kind of pride in Satis House going to the devil.

The other thing that started up in my mind is probably even more obvious: Abel in its biblical sense, i.e. the young man slain by his brother. Magwitch, like his biblical namesake, is a victim of circumstances: He is not only persecuted by a vengeful Compeyson but also ousted by society and by an unforgiving legal system.

Just my two pence about his name ...

Tristram wrote: "Peter has had some great thoughts about the different presentations of Magwitch in the illustrations Kim posted, and I find it very difficult to add anything to them. Instead, I would like to make ..."

Yes. Interesting isn't it? Abel from The Bible was the good son. A witch is most frequently seen as evil. Thus we have the contrast of good and evil contained within a single person. Abel Magwitch limped away from Pip in Chapter One framed by a beacon and a gibbet which are representations/symbols of good and evil. The binary nature of this novel gives us much to think about.

The next step in the arc of the plot could well be the restoration of Pip's rather tarnished reputation so far. Hmmm. I wonder ....

Peter wrote: "The next step in the arc of the plot could well be the restoration of Pip's rather tarnished reputation so far. Hmmm. I wonder .... "

You're just committed to Pip turning out well in the end, aren't you? [g]

Of course, since he's the one telling the story, I'm sure he'll give himself a good ending, deserved or not.

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "The next step in the arc of the plot could well be the restoration of Pip's rather tarnished reputation so far. Hmmm. I wonder .... "

You're just committed to Pip turning out well in..."

Ah, it will be interesting to see how all this ends up. :-))

Everyman wrote: "You're just committed to Pip turning out well in the end, aren't you?"

I continue to be puzzled by your commitment that Pip probably won't turn out well in the end. Throughout the novel, his adult narration has shown shame and remorse at his past thoughts and actions. Surely that implies that redemption is coming, does it not? Time will tell.

Mary Lou wrote: "I continue to be puzzled by your commitment that Pip probably won't turn out well in the end. "

I just think somebody who has been as self-centered, rude to benefactors, and morally weak as Pip has been shown to be doesn't change into a nice guy easily. And I've seen nothing that would justify such a dramatic change in character. If Dickens does pull it off, he had better justify it with some fairly significant character-changing events.

You are right, Everyman, there is a lot of unpleasant stuff in Pip. On the other hand, in the course of the novel we also have witnessed more redeeming qualities of Pip's character. I know you see it in a different light but I consider his endeavours in favour of securing Herbert's future one example of good actions done by Pip. On the occasion of his sister's death, esp. after the narration of how it occurred by Biddy, he also showed some genuine feeling and his ability to reconcile with his sister. Nevertheless, up to now, I think his bad sides do outweigh what is pleasant und virtuous in him.

Bad or good I just don't like the guy.

Tristram wrote: "On the occasion of his sister's death, esp. after the narration of how it occurred by Biddy, he also showed some genuine feeling and his ability to reconcile with his sister. "

How hard is it to reconcile with a dead person?

Everyman wrote: "How hard is it to reconcile with a dead person?"

I'm guessing there are thousands of psychologists that will tell you that lots of people have a difficult time with this. Unfinished business, and all of that.

Everyman wrote: "How hard is it to reconcile with a dead person?"

It's extremely hard to quarrel with a dead person, and therefore reconciling with a dead person should be comparatively easy.

"think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, and that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day."

This metaphor struck me too, as it kept cropping up in A Tale of Two Cities. I think there it was usually a "thread of gold" referring to Lucie Manette's hair.

Everyman wrote: "Hilary wrote: "Nothing to add really. These are all great comments. I just realised that I would quite happily have continued to take Magwitch's money. I think ... if only Pip could have swallowed ..."

I agree with you. It would be a gift to take Magwitch's money with gratitude and appreciation. It's a shame for both that Pip's prejudices prohibit that, at least for the time being.
Hmmm. I'm not saying snobbery is not at play in being "a" deciding factor in no longer accepting further funds from Magwitch, but it's not the only one either. I think Pip, with the guidance of Herbert, deciding to forego anymore financial aid from Magwitch shows just how much Pip is continuing to improve himself... He has made the decision to stand on his own two feet, do it on his own, and help Magwitch in the process. Also, just as Pip has helped Herbert, he is also doing the same for Magwitch without the contingency of anything in return other than ensuring safety for Magwitch.

Forget pride for second, where exactly would his "self-respect" be if he continues to take money from a person they look down upon and are disgusted by...Wouldn't that make Pip even more a despicable character? I would think it does.

Wouldn't it be "noble" of Pip to not take those funds for himself, and instead set Magwitch up for success in some way...Taking care of an elder? I like that Pip came to the decision he did, regardless of the snobbery aspect of the motivation because it does not cast a shadow over the good he is doing for Magwitch.

There is more to Pip in these last two sections other than his snobbery or abhorrence for Magwitch...There are more dynamics at play, thats all. :)

Tristram wrote: "Hello Fellow-Curiosities,

I wrote the recaps a few days ago and am posting them today, a little bit earlier, because I don't know how much time I will find tomorrow: Chapters 41 and 42 don’t take ..."

Still, Pip the narrator remembers that at that time Herbert’s behaviour made him feel what a blessing it was to have a true friend in life. Reading that, I could not help thinking that Pip is rather thankless in not considering Joe in that light and context. After all, Joe is his oldest friend and has done a lot for him – such as giving him a home in the first place, offering him to learn a decent and respected craft and protecting him from Tickler – and now Pip only thinks of Herbert when he thinks about friendship.
Oh, come on, Friend...Really? Can't we let him have this moment of genuine goodness and efforts shown to help others, rather than resorting him to being thankless of Joe? Joe is family and Herbert is a friend. Joe is not in the picture, at present, Herbert is. Pip has quite a bit on his plate, currently. Am I so far removed from this situation to think not paying proper reverence to Joe at this particular moment, is a bad thing? Herbert is the first real honest relationship in Pip's life as an outsider, it has to count for something for someone who had no childhood friends "his own age," or the ability to forge them-It's difficult to forge relationships with people as one gets older, isn't it?

Tristram wrote: "In Chapter 42, we learn about Magwitch’s antecedents, and finally the character is fleshed out more and more. Just consider the way he starts his story:

”’I’ve been done everything to, pretty well..."

What might this characterization have taught Magwitch with regard to his project of making a gentleman by providing young Pip with money? What else might Dickens want to tell his readers?
That Pip and Magwitch's understanding of what makes a gentleman does not go any further than what meets the eyes. These two men may have more in common than Pip would like to think, if only Pip could "see" it with his own eyes...I am hopeful that he does from the moments of sorrow he feels for Magwitch.

Ami wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Hello Fellow-Curiosities,

I wrote the recaps a few days ago and am posting them today, a little bit earlier, because I don't know how much time I will find tomorrow: Chapters 41 a..."

I must own that I am quite disposed to be hard on Pip for reasons I laid down in the thread on the novel as a whole, and that therefore, I am probably not always quite fair to him. You have a point here when you say that the moment Pip shows some feelings of unselfish friendship for Herbert is probably not the moment I could demand him to show consideration for Joe.

As to Pip's determination of not taking any more money from Magwitch and proudly standing on his own feet, however, I will revert to my former observation: In order to stand on "his own feet", Pip sells some jewellery that he has probably bought from the money received by Magwitch. So, he is still standing on Magwitch's feet here.