Reading the Chunksters discussion

Hi there! I was pleased to see Dr. Z won the spring/summer poll, who will be joining us?

I'll post some background info on this thread soon. In the meantime, please feel free to track down your copy and start reading!

I'll be joining - just waiting for my reservation to come in at he library (due 3 May). It's the Hayward and Harari translation.

I'm in for this! I'm going to test out the Serial Reader app - not sure which translation they have though, I'll have to check on that.

Awesome! Glad you are joining Pamela and Jen!

I didn't realize Dr. Z was only published in 1957 - Serial Reader only publishes older titles (copyright). Well it was a thought, maybe next time. I'll see what the library has available.

I'm in as a re-read, I'm not sure how much I'll actually post in the threads. But I'll certainly read them all.

I missed so much the first time around because of not knowing the history.

I finally bought my own copy, so I'll mark it up like mad!! The Max Hayward & Manya Harari translation.

I'm up for giving a try as well!

Hello! I haven't read with you guys in about a year, but I checked here yesterday, and lo and behold, you're reading Dr. Zhivago. I'm finishing up A Gentleman in Moscow, which, in its post-Revolution era topics, called up old memories of Dr. Z. And I think I read it back in the early 70's! I have a P & V copy and would love to read on your schedule.

Glad you are joining Jen and Susan!!

Hi there! We are just about to start our read of Dr. Zhivago, and I wanted to share with you some non spoiler info about the book.

Excerpts from wikipedia:

Doctor Zhivago is a novel by Boris Pasternak, first published in 1957 in Italy. The novel is named after its protagonist, Yuri Zhivago, a physician and poet, and takes place between the Russian Revolution of 1905 and the Civil War.

Due to its independent minded stance on the October Revolution, Doctor Zhivago was refused publication in the USSR. At the instigation of Giangiacomo Feltrinelli, the manuscript was smuggled to Milan and published in 1957. Pasternak was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature the following year, an event which embarrassed and enraged the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

The novel was made into a film by David Lean in 1965, and since then has twice been adapted for television, most recently as a miniseries for Russian TV in 2006.

I found this tidbit interesting from wiki:

In 2014 declassified documents show that the United States Central Intelligence Agency used Doctor Zhivago as a tool to provoke dissent in the USSR. A CIA memo from April 1958 described the "great propaganda value" and discussed providing support for having the novel printed in Russian, and distributing Western translations within the Soviet Union. The memo stated that the book was "a passive but piercing exposition of the effect of the Soviet system on the life of a sensitive intelligent citizen." The CIA memo noted that the book is valuable "not only for its intrinsic message and thought-provoking nature, but also for the circumstances of its publication: we have the opportunity to make Soviet citizens wonder what is wrong with their government, when a fine literary work by the man acknowledged to be the greatest living Russian writer is not even available in his own country in his own language for his own people to read". The documents describing the program were requested by Peter Finn and Petra Couvée as a part of their research for their 2014 book, The Zhivago Affair.

Wiki has this warning about the book, so take notes on the different names of each individual character to help you out!

The plot of Doctor Zhivago is long and intricate. It can be difficult to follow for two main reasons: first, Pasternak employs many characters, who interact with each other throughout the book in unpredictable ways, and second, he frequently introduces a character by one of his/her three names, then subsequently refers to that character by another of the three names or a nickname, without expressly stating that he is referring to the same character.

Here is some info on the author from his May 31, 1960 NY Times obit:

The life of Boris Pasternak spanned the heights and depths, the glories and tragedies, the joy and pathos that was Russia of the twentieth century.

So closely was he identified with the soil, the history, the tradition and the mystery of Russia that he could not imagine life away from the land where he was born on Feb. 10, 1890.

At the peak of the political controversy within the Soviet Union over his great novel, "Doctor Zhivago," and the award to him of the Nobel Prize Communist propagandists demanded that he leave Russia.

Mr. Pasternak wrote a letter to Premier Khrushchev declining the Nobel Prize and adding what his friends felt was the simple truth:

"Leaving the motherland will equal death for me. I am tied to Russia by birth, by life and work."

World fame came to Mr. Pasternak very late in life--with the publication of "Doctor Zhivago," the award to it in 1958 of the Nobel Prize, its translation into dozens of languages and almost overpowering barrage of publicity in every kind of media.

But long before this he had taken his place in the literary life of Russia as one of the great masters of the century.

Mr. Pasternak had made his mark and reputation before the Bolshevik Revolution. His place in the high ranks of Russian poetry was secure even before World War I.

By the late Nineteen Thirties Mr. Pasternak was turning more and more to the translation of foreign classics. His translations into Russian of Shakespeare's Hamlet," "Henry IV," "Romeo and Juliet," "Anthony and Cleopatra" and "Othello" are of a quality seldom equaled.

Considered Himself a Poet

It was as a poet that Mr. Pasternak made his mark in the world and it was a poet that he considered himself. The fact that his world fame was based upon a novel he regarded as more an accident of time, place and history than anything else.

The publication of "Doctor Zhivago" was the great literary event of postwar Russia. Yet the novel still has not been published in the land of its composition.

By early 1954, the novel had been reduced to approximately the shape in which it finally was published. Some poetical excerpts from it were published in a Moscow literary journal, arrangements had been made to serialize it in the leading Soviet magazine, Novy Mir, and book publication was under contract.

When Giangiacomo Feltrinelli, an Italian publisher, visited Moscow, Mr. Pasternak readily gave him a copy of the book for publication in Italy. It was to be brought out simultaneously with the Soviet edition.

But publishing and politics are inextricably intertwined in Russia. By 1956, despite--and in part because of--the anti-Stalin revelations of Mr. Khrushchev, the whole of Soviet policy was in flux. Concern was widespread over the consequences of too rapid relaxation. The symptoms of the Polish and Hungarian uprisings were only too apparent on the political landscape.

In this atmosphere the decision to publish "Doctor Zhivago" in Russia was countermanded.

Book Widely Acclaimed

Every effort was made to withdraw the manuscript from Signor Feltrinelli. But it was in vain. The book was published abroad, acclaimed in a torrent of adjectives such as had not been poured out upon a Russian writer since the time of Tolstoy, Chekhov and Turgenev.

The central figure in "Dr. Zhivago," Yuri Zhivago, is the son of a rich pre-Revolutionary Russian Industrialist. An excellent physician, he studies philosophy and literature, and develops ideas of his own--his main aim being to preserve his own spiritual independence. [plot summary omitted]

Novy Mir said that the spirit of the book was that of "nonacceptance of the socialist revolution." Soviet writers heaped scorn on Mr. Pasternak, calling him a "traitor," a "bourgeois reactionary," a "malevolent Philistine" and a "low-grade hack."

Mr. Pasternak was a product of the rich intellectual tradition and ferment of ideas that stirred middle-class Russia in the years immediately preceding World War I and the 1917 revolutions.

He was one of four children of Leonid Osipovich Pasternak and Roza Kaufmann Pasternak. His parents were of Jewish descent and he was brought up in a household in which the great poets, painters, musicians and writers of Russia were visitors.

Mr. Pasternak's mother was a concert pianist. His first urging was to a life of music. He felt strongly under the influence of Scriabin, and it was his ambition to become a composer, too. However, the young Pasternak lacked absolute pitch, and suddenly, and apparently without regret, he gave up his musical ambitions.

His next interest was philosophy. He studied under the famous Prof. Hermann Cohen, a disciple of Hegel and Kant, at the University of Marburg after having attended the Moscow Gymnasium and Moscow University.

By 1913, however, Mr. Pasternak had finally found his metier--poetry. After traveling in Italy, he settled down in Moscow and devoted himself to muse. His poetry was deeply lyrical, filled with magnificent imagery and strongly under the influence of symbolism--one of the dominant literary tendencies of pre-World War I Russia.

Mr. Pasternak did not see military service in the Czar's army because of a leg injury. He did spend some time--a year or two--working in a remote area of the Urals in a munitions plant.

Like almost all Russian intellectuals, he welcomed the 1917 Revolution, which long had been awaited by the nation's writers and artists. He was not, however, attracted by the Bolshevik movement, although in the early days he worked under the Bolshevik government in the Commissariat of Education.

One of the questions that never was fully clarified during Mr. Pasternak's life was the nature of his relationship with Stalin. There were many who felt that in some manner he had come under Stalin's protection, and that this was the reason why Mr. Pasternak seemed to lead a charmed life during the purges of the Nineteen Thirties.

Beginning in 1957 almost every foreign literary, musical or creative figure to journey to Moscow made the pilgrimage to Peredelkino. The pilgrimage was halted only for a few months after the enormous agitation over "Doctor Zhivago."

There was evidence that Premier Khrushchev himself had intervened to end the attacks on Mr. Pasternak.

Whatever the cause, it was apparent that there were profound second thoughts about the persecution of Mr. Pasternak. All of the leading literary and party figures who participated in the verbal lynching were downgraded or demoted.

Mr. Pasternak put aside the translation task he had tackled at the height of the "Zhivago" controversy--a new version of Tagore--and turned to a work dear to his heart, a play centering on Alexander II's freeing of the serfs in 1856. He was hard at work on this project late in 1959 and early this year and was still talking of another novel that he planned to write--for he was far from satisfied with "Doctor Zhivago."

His other principal works in English translation include "Childhood," published in 1941; "Collected Rose Works" in 1945; "Selected Poems," in 1946, and "Selected Writings," in 1949. His first book of poems, "Twin in the Clouds," appeared in 1914.

The author was married twice. He and his first wife, Eugenia, were divorced in 1931. His second wife was the former Zinaida Nikolaevna Neuhaus. He had three sons--a pianist, an engineer and a physics student.

Mr. Pasternak's parents had migrated to England about the time of the Revolution. He had two sisters, Lydia and Josephine, living there, and a brother, Alexander, an architect in Moscow.

In one of the poems included at the end of "Doctor Zhivago," Mr. Pasternak says through the voice of Hamlet:

The stir is over. I step fourth on the boards Leaning against an upright at the entrance, I strain to make the far-off echo yield A cue to the events that may come in my day. The order of the acts has been schemed and plotted, And nothing can avert the final curtain's fall, I stand alone. All else is swamped by Pharisaism. To live life to the end is not a childish task.

The words might well have served as the poet's epitaph.

Thanks for all the background on this book, it really shows just how powerful literature can be and that these are more than just "stories" but ways of telling events in ways that move people and can affect change. I know for me I have read a few books about people in the Dominican Republic because I live here now but when I read a novel about people here it really brings home the point of what the history books tell me, it takes the facts and lets you see them through the eyes of characters you come to know and love. I have seen it in the Russian literature I have read as well so when I read about how Russia would not let this book be published I can understand, it would be a very dangerous thing, like setting off a bomb.

And with the characters have what can seem like a million names I have to say that I cheat, I use the list of character names from SparkNotes and print it out and use it as a bookmark so that until I can recognize the characters by all their names I can refer to it and it really helps for those characters who are only in the story for bits and pieces. But don't read anything else from SparkNotes, at least not until after you have read the whole book or it will alter how you see things. I find it is better to read it and get my own perspective on the story, plot and characters as I see them personally and not through the eyes of someone else, it lets it be more personal for me. :-)

Test your knowledge of one of the best-known modern Russian novels and its author: http://rbth.com/arts/literature/2017/....

Dianne wrote: "Hi there! We are just about to start our read of Dr. Zhivago, and I wanted to share with you some non spoiler info about the book.

Excerpts from wikipedia:

" It sounds timely and perfect for a group read. Hoping that the discussion threads will help me keep the names straight. Glad to be joining in, this has been on my TBR for some time now.

Awesome Michelle! I'll start to try to sort everyone out, but you all have to help me!

Wow, thanks for all the background info.

I have been trying to get a good version of the novel. I bought one from Amazon with a colored picture of Omar Shariff on the cover. It was bad for two reasons: the text was in 'chapters' but the sections of the chapters ran together with no indication that a new paragraph had started and the format was so wide that it was hard to go from one line to the next. The poems were also missing.

I just found one at Barnes and Noble published by Vintage in a reasonable format (the PV translation). I also have the audible of this version (I like to listen and then read) and it is read by John Lee, one of the best narrators. I think I will get the ebook of this version too in hopes that it will help with the names.

Wonderful Peg! Glad you are joining!

I bought a ratty old copy of the Hayward & Harari after reading it in December. I was ecstatic to find this edition!!

I prefer team translators. And I adore P & V for Dostoevsky. But I heard the P & V isn't as good for DZ. But Vintage.... I love their editions! What's a reader to do?

DZ, I got so insanely confused! So I just focused on the love triangle folks. It meant the political stuff went straight over my head. I also watched both versions of the movies which helped a lot.

I read this not so long ago and I didn't like it but I'll probably read along in the threads. I found it horribly confusing to follow, one of the many reasons that I gave it a low rating, so it might help to do a bit of an overview if if i won't inflict a second read onto myself.

@Nicola
I suspect that it was Pasternak's intention to make it convoluted.. ?

Haaze wrote: "@Nicola
I suspect that it was Pasternak's intention to make it convoluted.. ?"

I guess some authors like to deliberately obfuscate their work perhaps to make it more difficult to understand and so more challenging. I don't see why he'd want to in this case though - it wasn't that sort of a book.

I personally put it down to the fact that:

1. It was full of lots of different characters which he threw at me all at once without much lead up or explanation as to who they were.
2. Like so many Russian writers all of the characters had multiple names
3. There was a lot of historical information which he just assumed I would know about
4. The novel jumped about a lot both between people and different places and times
and
5. I was listening to it on audio which made everything even worse.

The end result was, that whatever Pasternaks intentions were it was all a bit of a mess to try to follow.

Haaze and Nicola,

As I was reading in the introduction of the P&V version the point of his writing style was deliberate not to confuse the readers but to convey a "feeling of chaos, random movement, impulsiveness, chance encounters, sudden disruptions" which all were things people experienced in life, both now and then. Rarely in life do we get to have a smooth start to finish, birth to death. Most often we have sudden changes and events that seem like chance, the feelings you had with having difficulty following are similar to the feelings of people about life in general. I think reading that in the introduction has really helped me to see these things about his novel as genius and moving rather than annoying.

I know not everyone will enjoy his style but sometimes knowing why he wrote as he did can help either enjoy it or to at least not dislike it...lol

Nicola wrote: "Haaze wrote: "@Nicola
I suspect that it was Pasternak's intention to make it convoluted.. ?"

I guess some authors like to deliberately obfuscate their work perhaps to make it more difficult to und..."


I think that some of the issues you had with not knowing the history (that he just assumed you would know) can be said for any novel ever written, there are things going on in society that if you are not living it will be hard to understand just by reading a novel. I can only imagine what the novels of today will feel like for those who read them in 100 years. Time changes and no author can explain social issues in a novel and keep it a novel. I have only learned to "understand" some of the things he wrote about because I like Russian literature from that period and have had to Google lots of things as I read them but as I did this I was able to better appreciate what I read because I understood more.

Even when I read Jane Austen books I read the annotated version because so many social norms have changed. Reading in the story that it a man and a woman who had sent letters to one another was a scandalous thing unless they were engaged made no sense, to me it was just a letter but at the time it was an outward sign between two people that they were engaged so if a letter was seen to pass between them then people would assume they were engaged. Even reading American literature like Huckleberry Finn has its challenges because there are things going on that we were not witnesses of so things will be lost to us, it is just less obvious because we have some understanding since we grew up in America.

Basically we have to remember he wrote for the Russians living at the time.

Danielle wrote: I think that some of the issues you had with not knowing the history (that he just assumed you would know) can be said for any novel ever written

To a certain extent but I think that that novel carried it to extremes. There were just so many different wars and social upheavals that they all bled into one another. I can't remember them ever being specifically referenced by name it seemed to be just one ongoing mess.

Basically we have to remember he wrote for the Russians living at the time.

Yes of course, but that doesn't change the fact that to me, as an outsider fairly ignorant of Russian history, it was one big pile of 'wtf is going on now!? Who is winning, who is losing? What side are they on? What are the sides? Where are they in Russia? Actually who even IS this person!?? Oh £$%" it, I don't care! ' Which is why I said that reading the group comments should help with sorting out what exactly was going on.

Usually if I like a book enough I'll drag out the good 'ol Wikipedia and educate myself on the history. I didn't in this case because it didn't interest me enough as a novel and also, because it was just so confusing I would have had to do more work than just looking up one or two things. With lots of people contributing their comments and being read at a slow pace it should be a lot less chaotic.

Danielle wrote:As I was reading in the introduction of the P&V version the point of his writing style was deliberate not to confuse the readers but to convey a "feeling of chaos, random movement, impulsiveness, chance encounters, sudden disruptions" ..."

Well there you go!

Nicola wrote: "Danielle wrote: I think that some of the issues you had with not knowing the history (that he just assumed you would know) can be said for any novel ever written

To a certain extent but I think th..."

I hope you know that I was not trying to say your opinion was wrong, just offering a possible explanation of why it was the way it was, and even that is just how I perceive it.

Your comments about getting totally lost on "who is winning and who is losing" to the point you no longer care is probably one of his goals....lol. We see so much about issues going on with Russia now that I bet the people there sometimes feel the same way, lost chaos and not having a clue as to what is going on.

It's awesome that you are even giving it another shot since you had not liked it before. Hopefully this time around it won't be as bad. :-)

Danielle wrote: "It's awesome that you are even giving it another shot since you had not liked it before. "

I'm not giving it another shot :-) I wouldn't do that to myself! I'm just reading along with the comments and seeing if those help to make it less of a tangle so I'll get more of the background history than I managed to absorb when I read it a few months ago. Which, frankly, was fairly much nothing at all...

I hope you know that I was not trying to say your opinion was wrong, just offering a possible explanation of why it was the way it was, and even that is just how I perceive it.

Yep, don't worry :-)

I am reading the Hayward & Harari translation but since the library where I work also has the P&V version, I also checked that out so I could compare a few chapters. I may have clinched the "Nerd of the Year" title.

That's ok drew. We like nerds. You are amidst a welcoming sea of nerds.

Dianne wrote: "That's ok drew. We like nerds. You are amidst a welcoming sea of nerds."

Thanks, Dianne! I'll report back if I find anything significant.

I notified all my colleagues that I had both copies and to let me know if someone asked for it and one of the other librarians laughed out loud at me. :(

They are silly rabbits! No worries, we would appreciate you noting anything significant that you find :)

Book Nerds are the very best type of Nerd!

Dianne wrote: "They are silly rabbits! No worries, we would appreciate you noting anything significant that you find :)"

Just to be clear, I think he was laughing at the idea that anyone else would want to read it. But who knows? I should ask.

Drew wrote: "Dianne wrote: "They are silly rabbits! No worries, we would appreciate you noting anything significant that you find :)"

Just to be clear, I think he was laughing at the idea that anyone else woul..."

that's what I figured. I was just thinking they were silly because OF COURSE we would want to!

Drew wrote: "I am reading the Hayward & Harari translation but since the library where I work also has the P&V version, I also checked that out so I could compare a few chapters. I may have clinched the "Nerd o..."

Well at least you are among your kind with us here in the group! :-)

Dianne, that's a fabulous summary of Pasternak's bio!!

I'm currently audiobook reading The Zhivago Affair: The Kremlin, the CIA, and the Battle Over a Forbidden Book. It's fabulous for learning more behind the scenes of this book.

An interesting tidbit from the audiobook: When he started to write this, he began with blank papers from a recently deceased man's desk. He felt an intense compulsion to get these words down onto paper, battlefield or not.

Well, I got too interested and have sped ahead and almost finished. I will try to pull it together to make some comments next week. I do think the love story between Yuri and Lara was the weakest part of the book. OTOH, when people are thrown together under difficult circumstances, a deep bond can be forged quickly.

That's a good 'problem' to have drew! Look forward to your thoughts :) I'll try to post next weeks links early for you

Dianne wrote: "That's a good 'problem' to have drew! Look forward to your thoughts :) I'll try to post next weeks links early for you"

Don't hurry! I'm going to be away for the weekend.

I see my public library has the movie. Maybe I will watch it this summer just for kicks.

Ok tell us if it's good!

Dianne wrote: "Ok tell us if it's good!"

I mostly don't want to be disabused of my notion that Julie Christie and Omar Sharif were the most attractive people in the world.