THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

The June Theme Read is on any book or books covering the Eastern Front (land, air & sea).

My book is THE BATTLE OF KONIGSBERG: The Struggle for the East Prussian Capital, October 1944-April 1945 by Brian Taylor.

I started a bit early as I cracked this one open last night:
The Fall of Berlin

Never got the chance to read it when I went on vacation earlier this year, so now I'm making up for the missed opportunity.

I'll weigh in with
Force Benedict, then hopefully use the read as an excuse to finish off Zitadelle: The German Offensive Against the Kursk Salient 4-17 July 1943

I've got In Deadly Combat: A German Soldier's Memoir of the Eastern Front or Alan Clark's Barbarossa or Prit Buttar's early effort Battleground Prussia: The Assault on Germany's Eastern Front 1944–45 left.

Many people have already discussed these, so I'll do whatever no one else will be listing for the theme read.

All excellent books and I will be keen to hear people's thoughts on their respective books as we get into the theme read!

Rising '44: The Battle for Warsaw

I will plod through this.

4triplezed wrote: " Rising '44: The Battle for Warsaw

I will plod through this."

I hope you enjoy it!

Great! I'll be joining in next week (assuming I can decide which book to read...)

Tony wrote: "Great! I'll be joining in next week (assuming I can decide which book to read...)"

I'll be interested to see which book you select :)

Suggestions welcome!!

Tony wrote: "Suggestions welcome!!"

You've really opened up a can of worms with that statement! Is there a particular battle you're interested in? Air warfare? Tank combat? We can recommend anything and everything...

Beevor's The Fall of Berlin 1945 is on Kindle special this month....

Marc wrote: "You've really opened up a can of worms with that statement!"

Heh! I don't have a special interest - just something well written, reasonably accessible, and readily available (since I've left it a bit late to go on a book hunt). At the moment I'm considering Warsaw 1944: Hitler, Himmler, and the Warsaw Uprising or War Without Garlands: Operation Barbarossa 1941-42.

Thanks Jonny, I've only read one of Beevor's books but it was excellent, so that's definitely a contender.

Tony wrote: "Marc wrote: "You've really opened up a can of worms with that statement!"

Heh! I don't have a special interest - just something well written, reasonably accessible, and readily available (since I'..."

Kershaw's a solid read, I've yet to go wing with him.

Michael Jones has written several very good (IMO) books on the Eastern Front.
Leningrad: State of Siege
The Retreat: Hitler's First Defeat
Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed. Michael K. Jones
Total War: From Stalingrad to Berlin

Thanks fellas. Logging on to Amazon now...

All excellent recommendations and the book you are already considering on Warsaw is a great read as well.

Ok, I just finished a book and will start this for the June theme read:
In Deadly Combat: A German Soldier's Memoir of the Eastern Front by Gottlob Herbert Bidermann

I'm already halfway through this :

I might pick up a copy of

I love reading about the Eastern Front, by far my favorite subject of World War Two.

Gregg wrote: "Ok, I just finished a book and will start this for the June theme read:
[book:In Deadly Combat: A German Soldier'..."

I hope you enjoy "In Deadly Combat" as much as I did Greg, keep us all posted.

Lawrence Brent Rogers wrote: "I'm already halfway through this :

I might pick up a copy of [bookcover:War Without Garlands: Operation ..."

Two pretty good books by all accounts and I have copies of both but unread as of yet.

About 50 pages into Rising '44. Strange start. The author is doing something I am not that keen on and giving a specific subject a kind of label. Calling Poland "First Ally" is a touch annoying. The first chapter itself is called Allied Coalition and is a general discussion on Poland as part of that. Probably going over old grounds in some respects for anyone that has read extensively on WW2 as many of us have in this group. I am always of the opinion that if a historian is going to cover a specific event why explain too much of the prehistory as your readership should be well versed on the general subject already.

I don't tend to read reviews prior to starting a book but did have a look at the star rating to see of any of us had read this and see that both Rick and Dimitri have scored a poorish 2 stars each.

It wasn't my favourite book on the subject but you may enjoy it more than I did. One book that I really enjoyed was this recent title:

Warsaw 1944: The Fateful Uprising by Alexandra Richie

If there was any doubt this is the book that I will read for the Eastern Front theme read. I have a paper copy, a kindle copy, and an audio copy so there are no excuses....Now, I just have to finish the Devil In the White City and I will get into the theme read.

Jonny - Did you say Beever's the Fall of Berlin Kindle addition is on sale? can you post a link? I am seeing 14.99$ on Amazon and they usually go on sale for 1.99$ or so. Thanks!

Sweetwilliam wrote: "

If there was any doubt this is the book that I will read for the Eastern Front theme read. I have a paper copy, a kindle copy, and ..."

It's not on sale per se, its in the UK monthly deals, so I guess it may be geographically specific. Sorry!

So, I've reached chapter 3 of . It's a part memoir, in the style of ; so the first chapter covers Eric Carter's entry into the RAFVR, the second covers the exploits of some of the Force members during the Battle of Britain, including a very lengthy extract on the exploits of Raymond Holmes, who destroys three Dorniers over London, the last using what I've always considered, thanks to my misspent youth, as a particularly Russian tactic, that of ramming. Chapter three covers Carter's appointment to 615 Squadron and had me smiling on my commute, its just a love letter to the Hurri!
So, sorry for being a bit of a fraud so far, I'll get to the Eastern Front soon, promise!

by Artem Drabkin

This will be my read for this theme.

4triplezed wrote: "About 50 pages into Rising '44. Strange start. The author is doing something I am not that keen on and giving a specific subject a kind of label. Calling Poland "First Ally" is a touch annoying. Th..."

I had similar difficulties with this one, I've not managed to get any further than the introduction!

The Retreat: Hitler's First Defeat

Having recently read this before this months theme read I agree with several reviews I've read on it and found that it's well set out for those that are looking for a quick overall descriptive narrative of operation typhoon. I found it quite enjoyable as a break from a lot of the in depth books written on this subject! Certainly a great edition for any first time reader of this topic!

Love the recommendations that u guys are putting on! Will certainly add them to my ever growing list of reading!!

Owned this for awhile but only starting know! Thoughts to come later guys!

OK, I'm back home and have started this book for the theme read on the Eastern Front:

Between Giants: The Battle for the Baltics in World War II by Prit Buttar

Funny enough I only just realised that my copy has been signed by the author! :)

I'd like to read I Will Bear Witness 1933-41 A Diary of the Nazi Years by Victor Klemperer.

Nita wrote: "I'd like to read I Will Bear Witness 1933-41 A Diary of the Nazi Years by Victor Klemperer."

I hope you can Nita and join us with a few comments as well.

I liked this quote from my book in relation to when Nazi Germany put pressure on Latvia in early 1939 to sign a non-aggression pact:

"Latvian diplomats joked lugubriously that 'Germany can now sleep in peace: Latvia will not attack it'."

Hilarious Rick! +1

Karl wrote: "

Owned this for awhile but only starting know! Thoughts to come later guys!"

This is a 5-star read all the way. I bought it and read it when it first came out and passed it to 3 other co-workers. We all read it and loved it. A pager turner.

Stalingrad

Most humorous bit thus far:

German soldiers version of instructions, entitled 'Notes for Those Going on Leave'. Their attempt to be funny reveals a great deal about the brutalising effects of the Ostfront. 'You must remember that you are entering a National Socialist country whose living conditions are very different to those which you have become accustomed. You mus be tactful with the inhabitants, adapting to their customs and refrain from the habits which you love so much. FOOD: Do not rip up the parquet or other kinds of floor, because potatoes are kept in a different place. CURFEW: If you forget your key, try to open the door with the round-shaped object. Only in cases of extreme urgency use a grenade. DEFENCE AGAINST PARTISANS: It is not necessary to ask civilians the password and open fire on receiving an unsatisfactory answer. DEFENCE AGAINST ANIMALS: Dogs with mines attached to them are a special feature of the Soviet Union. German dogs in the worst cases bite, but they do not explode. Shooting every dog you see, although recommended in the Soviet Union, might create a bad impression. RELATIONS WITH THE CIVIL POPULATION: In Germany just because somebody is wearing women's clothes does not necessarily mean that she is a partisan. But in spite of this, they are dangerous for anyone on leave from the front. GENERAL: When on leave back in the Fatherland take care not to talk about the paradise existence in the Soviet Union in case everybody wants to come here and spoil our idyllic comfort.'

Enjoying this book imensively! Should have read sooner!

Great Stuff Karl.
From Chapter one of Enemy at the Gate I learned the following:
Field Marshall Reichenau preceded Paulus. Reichenau's insistence on retribution had resulted in monstrous crimes. Four special extermination squads, called Einsatzgruppen, followed in the wake of 6th army across Russia. The groups were made up of 3,000 "sadists" recruited from mostly Himmler's SS or the SD . Some wandered in from punishment battalions and psychiatric hospitals. They had been armed with rifles and machine pistols and told explicitly what to do with them. Dressed in black uniforms, terrified villagers soon referred to them as "Black Crows."

Reichenau had helped the Einsatzgruppen as much as he could. Anxious to conserve ammunition, he suggested each Jew be finished off with no more than two bullets. A picnic atmosphere prevailed around ditches filled with bodies. Soldiers in bathing suits snapped pictures and sent them home.

Germans that protested were ignored. Nearly a million people people died before Friedrich von Paulus assumed control of 6th Army and ended the genocide. Apparently, Reichenau, an ardent Nazi, died during the Russia campaign.

The Einsatzgruppen stands in contrast to the Ordinary Men who made up the Order Police of Battalion 101 that had been ordered to implement the Final Solution in Poland.

The reason why I chose to read about the battle of Stalingrad was because it was an enormous operation with massive casualties that makes all other theaters pale in comparison. Consider the following: The Soviets never officially admitted their losses. Russian sources put their losses at 750,000 killed, wounded, or missing in action. The Germans lost almost 400,000. The Italians lost 130,000 men out of their 200,000. The Hungarians lost 120,000 and the Rumanians lost approximately 200,000.

A prewar census listed a civilian population of 500,000 prior to the outbreak of the war. Only a portion of those were evacuated before the battle started. 40,000 dies in the first two days of bombing of the city. After the battle was over only 1,515 civilians were found alive in the city.

The casualties of the battle were 1.6 MM combatants and and probably ~300,000 to 400,000 thousand civilians. So a good estimate is 2MM people were casualties of the battle of Stalingrad????

On 12 January, Field Marshal von Reichenau, went for his morning run at Poltava. The temperature being twenty degrees below zero. Reichenau felt unwell during lunch, and suddenly collapsed from a heart attack. Hoyle ordered that the unconscious Reichenau be brought straight back to Germany he was strapped to an armchair and fastened inside the fuselage of a Dornier

Then pilot insisted on landing at Lemberg to refuel, but he crash landed some distance from the field. By the time the party reached the hospital in Leipzig, Reichenau was dead.

Ever heard of SS troops running from imaginary Soviets ? the scratch Kampfgruppe Nord did in '41 in Northern Finland, leaving their HQ a few hours in expectation of non-existant tanks coming down the road. No wonder operation 'Artic Fox' didn't get anywhere past 20km from the Soviet-Finnish border after 3 attempts.

(from Finland's War Of Choice: The Troubled German-Finnish Coalition in World War II)

Chapters 4 - 7 of Force Benedict deal with Eric Carter's transition to a squadron role art RAF Valley; an unwelcome side posting to Defiant nightfighters over Merseyside; the decision to prop up the battered Red Air Force in the Artic by sending units of Hurricane fighters, and an account of Operation Dervish, the convoy out. The Eastern Front at last!

Thanks for the great suggestions, which have all made it onto my tbr list. I finally decided what to read, and picked up Warsaw 1944: The Fateful Uprising earlier today. I've fancied this for a while, after reading a couple of accounts of the Warsaw ghetto uprising and being frankly a bit puzzled by the response of many of the Polish residents. I'm looking forward to getting stuck in, and I'll also be interested to see how it measures up to 4triplezed's book.

Tony wrote: "Thanks for the great suggestions, which have all made it onto my tbr list. I finally decided what to read, and picked up [book:Warsaw 1944: Th..."

you'll love this. with occassional nausea.

Dimitri wrote: "you'll love this. with occassional nausea."

Thanks Dimitri, will try to avoid reading while eating then...

Good choice Tony, its a great account but with some horrific stories.

I just read about this brave Japanese diplomat in Lithuania who managed to rescue numerous Jews during his period as Consul in that area:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/c...

Here is a great first-hand account from the 1st Panzer Division of when the unit first encountered the massive Russian KV1 and KV2 tanks:

"Our companies opened fire from 700 meters. We got closer and closer, but it didn't disturb the enemy. Soon we were only about 50-100 meters from each other. A fantastic engagement opened up - without any German progress. The Soviet tanks continued their advance and our armour-piecing projectiles simply bounced off. The Soviet tanks withstood point-blank range fire from both our 50mm and 75mm guns. A KV2 was hit more than 70 times, and not a single round penetrated. A very few of the Soviet tanks were immobilized and eventually also destroyed as we managed to shoot at their tracks, and then eventually brought up the artillery to hammer them at close range. Assault engineers then attacked by foot with satchel charges."

KV1:
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2...

KV2:
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2...

The Hurricane units are now operational at Vaenga, having gotten over their shock at the conditions (HQ is, perhaps obviously, known as "The Kremlin") and the unusual rations (champagne for breakfast?). The real mission of air cover for Murmansk and providing conversion training for the Russians is about to begin!

German Panzer commander on the KV tank:

'They had a longer range, we could not attack them across open. So, like ships at sea, I pulled my tanks right back out of sight, made a wide detour, and attacked from behind.' The Russian heavy tanks scattered, except for one which had lost a track; its traverse mechanism had jammed, so the turret could not turn. 'We lined up behind him, and started to shoot. We counted our hits on this tank, but none of them penetrated the armour. Then I saw the hatch of the tank move. I guessed that they wanted to surrender, so over the radio I told me company to cease fire. The Russians then opened the hatch completely and climbed out.' The crew were totally confused, shaken and deafened, but not one of them was even wounded. 'It was depressing to realise how inferior our tank guns were.'