Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is our discussion of the classic sf/f novel...

Shadow & Claw by Gene Wolfe

This is an omnibus of The Shadow of the Torturer (1980) & The Claw of the Conciliator (1981), the start of Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series.

I'm excited to give this one another shot after totally missing the point the first time I read it.

Just wondering if the group is planning to read the entire thing, or just this volume?

I'm planning on reading all 5, but I only read the first two so far for this discussion, will get around to the rest when I have time, but I assume this discussion will only cover this volume, any other references to the remaining stories should be marked as spoilers.

I found it interesting that both this series, and Jack Vance's Dying Earth series take place at the end of the Sun's life, so two very different (though both equally weird) versions of what the end will be like. I enjoyed how this one made references to the past, talking about how we went to the stars but seem to have forgotten how. But there's still some leftover tech, new lifeforms (whether alien/genetically engineered/naturally evolved), etc

So far the story wanders randomly. I get the feeling that our torturer protagonist has some grand destiny (what with him acquiring the sword and the Claw) and his occasional encounters with god-like beings (I kept thinking Lovecraft here, kind of alien gods) but so far he doesn't know what he's supposed to do, so he just wanders along running into trouble, and occasionally putting on a play (had to skim that chapter, hope there wasn't something important in it). It's a book where I'm pretty well confused as to what's going on but sort of satisfied to be along for the bizarre ride just to see what pops out at the next corner.

After all, I joined this group to be exposed to new things and this is definitely different. In fact the only thing I could compare it to in style is Vance's Dying Earth, which I also read only by being part of this group. So I really need to finish both series now.

Certainly a novel that makes you work hard for your enjoyment. It's frustrating and tedious at times, and the main character is an unpleasant guy with an unpleasant job that thinks quite a lot of himself.

It's very worth the extra effort. I would say reading this book made me a better reader, giving me the tools to read a book where the story is not actually the words that are printed on the page. It's helped me to understand and appreciate other novels that deploy similar tricks, such as Too Like the Lightning.

I didn't find Severian to be unpleasant...he was more...dunno. Innocent? And not all that bright? He managed to stumble blindly about and got manipulated by just about everyone he ran into. And I didn't so much find he was full of himself as he took pride in his trade, which happens to be a rather unpleasant one, but I sort of got where he was coming from. The whole torturing their clients while still also treating them well. To make a good show of executing someone (don't want to hack away at it like some untrained thug after all). And the ethics of executing an innnocent...well, that was the job of the judge/jury/etc, he's just the executioner. It was definitely a challenge to make someone with that occupation be appealing and I thought Wolfe more or less succeeded. Mind, I wasn't too impressed with his behaviour around women, but again, he was more manipulated than lecherous. It's more he kind of fell in love with everyone female he came across, which was weird, but again, he's young, naive and very clueless.

I found absolutely everyone else to be unpleasant though, ugh

Andrea wrote: "Mind, I wasn't too impressed with his behaviour around women, but again, he was more manipulated than lecherous. It's more he kind of fell in love with everyone female he came across, which was weird, but again, he's young, naive and very clueless."

Keep in mind that Severian's recounting all of these incidents from his own perspective, so he frames things in such a way as to make himself look good.

So far, I am enjoying the book and struggling through it. I started it when it was offered for free, and I've just reached the second part.

On the one hand I find it refreshing because it's unlike anything else I'm reading. The world is fascinating, and I wasn't expecting to be reading about a torturer. I find Severian to be naive and full of himself, and I'm sure if I met him I probably wouldn't like him.

On the other hand, I really have to work to understand what's going on in the story. Sometimes I feel like maybe I'm just not smart enough or mature enough to be reading this. Sometimes I feel like I'm reading someone's psychedelic dream.

Here are just a *few* of the things that made me scratch my head:

(view spoiler)[What was up with the avern? What am I missing about the flower of death? I don't understand why the leaves didn't kill Severian, and why Agia seemed to help him to the point it actually ended up badly for her brother.

Then, there was the green guy from the future. What? Will there be more about this, or is this just a trippy glimpse about the current state of the world?

Finally, I just read about Severian rushing to the mines to find Thecla. He got attacked by weird ape men but managed to escape by holding up the Claw? Then, there was some big, weird noise that scared all of them?

I feel like there are all these things that happen, then end...and I have zero closure.
(hide spoiler)]

I think if someone can just tell me that it will all make sense by the time I get through this, I will feel a little better. Right now, I haven't entirely made up my mind about how this book is making me feel.

Haha, I hope I don't sound frustrated. I am super happy I joined this group because I never would have picked up a book like this before. I would have been confined to my box--which is fine, but doesn't help me grow much as a reader.

Phil wrote: "I'm excited to give this one another shot after totally missing the point the first time I read it."

Missing the point but you rated it four stars? Now I am curious :)

I totally missed the point this time. Sigh.

Andrea wrote: "I'm planning on reading all 5, but I only read the first two so far for this discussion, will get around to the rest when I have time, but I assume this discussion will only cover this volume, any ..."

I like the fact you mentioned Dying Earth since it also reminded me of that book/world. I did enjoy DE more than this one - the short stories there are easier for me to follow.

Post-civilization fantasy is definitely not my thing - this book just cemented my opinion about it.

Maybe there is a purpose to it but everytime Severian encountered something (especially after he found the Claw) I was getting more and more confused. It might not be random but it felt random.

The treatment on female characters here also reminded me of Dying Earth. Why of course it is easy for them to fall into the MC's arms. And of course the MC loved them all even though he seemed to confuse love and lust and his true love changed every chapter. I guess it was a trend back then. I felt really uncomfortable reading some of the passages and almost yelled in frustration when the words melons or some fruits was used to describe one character's breasts. Ugh. I just...can't sympathize with him as a character and his plot.

Robot guy is kind of intriguing but the story never really picked up for me after 30%. I was just trying really hard to finish this. Definitely not my kind of book. No regrets though, now I can say I read it ;p

Brendan wrote: "Andrea wrote: "Mind, I wasn't too impressed with his behaviour around women, but again, he was more manipulated than lecherous. It's more he kind of fell in love with everyone female he came across..."

(view spoiler)[
And he always ended the story with a warning. (hide spoiler)]I found it both amusing and rather smug. Not a pleasant dude to hang around with.

Emily wrote: "So far, I am enjoying the book and struggling through it. I started it when it was offered for free, and I've just reached the second part.

On the one hand I find it refreshing because it's unlik..."

Yep I totally get your frustration. This book really humbled me yet at the same time I also do not care that I gave it one star. Since, well, it was just not a good reading experience subjectively.

On the spoiler parts, what I could answer is:
(view spoiler)[the claw somehow scared the apes and the noise was a creature living in the cave but it was not really explained what it was and why it's there (hide spoiler)]

I get the feeling that maybe things like the Claw will get explained as we go along. Basically we're seeing things from Severian's POV (though as someone pointed out, he is actually recounting this at a later date so he himself knows where things are going even if we do not and isn't giving us any hints, I keep forgetting this is essentially his memoirs until he reminds us...and points out how good his memory is, over and over and over again) and at this moment in the story he doesn't know what the Claw does either. Though he does seem to know who/what the Conciliator is while the reader doesn't get filled in.

But I agree with the person who described this as a psychedelic dream. I keep wondering if the things that happen are important (like did he survive the flower battle because he's somehow special, touched by the gods or whatnot) or is it just totally random and had nothing to do with the overall storyline.

Maybe someone who has read the full series can just drop a hint that things actually do get explained or not, then people can decide if they want to keep reading. I'll definitely continue because I happen to own an omnibus of four of the books and no point stopping halfway through if I already own the others.

Anyone understand how that bizarre botanical gardens worked? Couldn't figure out it if was a show, or time travel, or a hologram or some alien construct that does loopy things with the human mind. Who were those people he ran into, some of which could see the visitors and others could not? That whole jungle section seemed pointless, and I couldn't imagine letting people wander about with predatory animals prowling and the risk that people might get lost there forever. Not that anyone seems to put much value on human life, so perhaps it was a survival of the fittest test.

Andrea wrote: "and points out how good his memory is, over and over and over again."

Hmm, seems like a big red flag to me. Now every time I read a character in any book saying they have a great memory my immediate thought is "the hell you do."

Shadow & Claw is not a standalone book. It makes no sense at all without Sword & Citadel. The Claw, and some of the random-seeming scenes, gain a lot more context in Citadel. "Touched by gods" is not quite the answer, it isn't that sort of fantasy story.

If I recall, the "how" of the gardens is explained. I don't remember if "why" is explained.

I just finished my second read-thru of Shadow & Claw last month (after reading all 5 last year), and actually joined this group specifically for this discussion!

I found that the details I thought so important on the first read-through, that is, Severian's story and his quest, are really only the shallow surface of the story of the Book of the New Sun. However, the only way to understand the real story of Urth on a second read-through, IS to understand Severian's experience the first time through.

Just as Severian sets to write his story roughly at the end of Book 4, the entire story is strangely cyclical, and warrants a second read.

My impression is that Severian is entirely naive to the forces at play as he bumbles his way out of Nessus, and still only has a fragmented understanding of the role he plays by the end. However, through examination of what is said by those he dismisses as sidetracking him from his quest - Rudesind the art restorer, or the Androgyne in the House Absolute - you can get a better feel for the layers in mythology and storytelling.

A quick spoiler regarding regarding details from Claw of the Conciliator, and events from Sword & Citadel: (view spoiler)[
When Severian meets the Autarch in the House Absolute, the latter reaches for the vial around his neck, and says something to the effect of "I thought I had more time".

In Citadel of the Autarch, you find out the phallic vial contained the alzabo analeptic, and the Autarch implores Severian to make use of it.

These two, taken in context, suggest to me that the Autarch already knew he was to be replaced, and that he was to be replaced by Severain specifically!
(hide spoiler)]

And a quick spoiler/discussion regarding the structure of Shadow & Claw only: (view spoiler)[
As I began suspecting there was this second, deeper story accessible throughout, not just contained as stories-within-stories, the Autarch spoke of the Second House, built by Father Inire, as existing throughout the House Absolute, connected throughout, rather than an obscure, removed series of rooms and passages. Whether this was intended by Wolfe, or whether it was sheer coincidence that the structure of the books finally clicked in for me at that point, is one of the single greatest moments I've had reading.
(hide spoiler)]

The consistency of the lore is just amazing, though. The subtle reference in Claw of the Conciliator to Urth of the New Sun, wherein (view spoiler)[Severian opens the gigantic book, and sees many-eyed Tzadkiel floating in solar wind (hide spoiler)] left me giddy, and wanting answers.

That's as far as I got with that bit of understanding, and I'll have to re-read Sword & Citadel, and maybe the whole damned thing again, to make sense of it.

Andrea wrote: "... So far the story wanders randomly. I get the feeling that our torturer protagonist has some grand destiny (what with him acquiring the sword and the Claw) and his occasional encounters with god-like beings (I kept thinking Lovecraft here, kind of alien gods) but so far he doesn't know what he's supposed to do, so he just wanders along running into trouble, and occasionally putting on a play (had to skim that chapter, hope there wasn't something important in it). It's a book where I'm pretty well confused as to what's going on but sort of satisfied to be along for the bizarre ride just to see what pops out at the next corner. ..."

How right you are. I'm told Gene Wolfe has a tendency to make great use of the "unreliable narrator" method of storytelling, and I wholly believe Severian to be that. On a second read-through, I am getting the sense that as events unfold, or even after, when Severian sets down to write his story, he still does not wholly comprehend the significance of the events he has taken in. Do not look to his account to make sense of meaning, but rather, look more at what everyone else is seemingly trying to tell him.

As for the play, it is indeed a doozy. I found it helpful to scrawl a few notes as I read it, trying to match the characters in the book with the characters in they portray on stage. There is a lot of symbolism, and I am far from being able to make sense of it, but I feel there is a lot there.

Thanks Angry_Giant for the explanation. Hmm somehow despite getting some insights I still do not care for Severian and the others. Characters are important for me to enjoy a story, not just plot. The fact that I need to reread or complete the whole series and reconstruct, rethink and so on, oh boy those are just too heavy for my poor brain. Anywho, I hope everyone enjoys this more than I did.

Silvana wrote: "Maybe someone who has read the full series can just drop a hint that things actually do get explained or not..."

There is something about the series that draws you in, sticks with you, haunts you, and nags at you until you read it again and again. But after having read it 3 times, I would say that, from where I sit at least, things do not really get "explained" in the usual sense.

I've read a lot of commentary on this series, trying to find such an explanation. There are some critics who claim to "understand" the series, but always seem unable to articulate any kind of concrete explanation to the uninitiated.

There are others who seem to maintain that explaining everything is not the point. That the story is, like you said, a psychedelic dream. I tend to fall on that side.

Although I do get more out of it each time I read it (including more appreciation), I mainly get more puzzlement, more details that complicate it, and more questions that seem to need explanation.

If you consider the book itself as a reflection of the House Absolute, then (view spoiler)[ just like the Second House that is hidden within the main one, there is a Second Book hidden all throughout the book itself. Sadly, knowing that it's there, and even knowing one or more ways to get into it, doesn't really help you. You can still get lost in the House Absolute or in the hidden Second House within it. Likewise, while there is definitely something beneath the surface of this book, there's no guarantee that finding those hidden elements (hide spoiler)] will add to your overall understanding of the book.

Dylan wrote: "There is something about the series that draws you in, sticks with you, haunts you, and nags at you until you read it again and again."

Well said, Dylan. I didn't love the books the first time I read them - I generally dislike fantasy, and the setting rubbed me the wrong way. I found Severian rather unlikable, and things like the Alzabo and the Averns interesting, but not willing to fit into a neat little box that I can suspend minimal disbelief to buy into.

And then months passed, and without word of exaggeration, not a day went by when I did not think back to the books in some way or another. Both little details, like the art Rudesind is cleaning when Severian first meets him, and the depth of the storytelling, such as Severian speaking of Master Gurloes being a complex man's interpretation of a simple man, had implanted deep in my mind.

I still think of this line, with some regularity: "He used to mispronounce quite common words: urticate, salpinx, bordereau."

So, what about Severian and Thecla, and the inconsistency in his retelling of their relationship?

Until the time Severian sets off on his journey, he describes their relationship as (view spoiler)[essentially chaste (hide spoiler)]. I don't recall whether he specifically denies anything having had happened, but I did not get the sense there was anything left unsaid. However, after the duel, I believe, when Severian recounts things differently,(view spoiler)[ with them as lovers, instead of just the strange form of friendship they had had (hide spoiler)].

Given Severian's perfect memory, I can come up with 3 possible explanations.

1. Severian's memory is not as perfect as he claims it to be.

2. Severian is lying.

3. (view spoiler)[it is not (only) that Severian survives the duel due to divine intervention, or that he is not wholly human, but rather, the Severian who loved Thecla as a friend is dead, and we then follow a parallel timeline, wherein Severian and Thecla were lovers. All Severians in all timelines die by the Avern, and are reincarnated with all Severians' memories, thus, the added romantic component to their relationship (hide spoiler)]. However, Severian is unaware he is doing this. But that could be all drivel.

Silvana wrote: "Thanks Angry_Giant for the explanation. Hmm somehow despite getting some insights I still do not care for Severian and the others. Characters are important for me to enjoy a story, not just plot. T..."

I definitely get the sense that Book of the New Sun is not for everyone, and I cannot fault you for not loving it (at all). There were definitely a few starts and stops when I first started the series. However, if you find yourself thinking back to it down the road, I would urge you to give it another go, either to continue, or start again. There is so much more to it.

Angry_Giant wrote: "1. Severian's memory is not as perfect as he claims it to be. ."

I don't have the exact bit in the book (it's in the second one I believe) but there is a place where he says he didn't remember something or other, which puts his whole claim of having perfect memory into question (I'll see if I can find it, probably Thecla related). Now, one has to ask, is he knowingly lying about having perfect memory or is he deluding himself?

I must say, being about two weeks after I finished reading the second book, I've probably forgotten more details than I still remember (there's so much!), especially about the House Absolute that I could make absolutely no sense out of. The whole "I escaped some horrid dungeon and oh, think I'll go look for my sword now and in the process find out that person X is also person Y" bit had me bemused.

Andrea wrote: "Angry_Giant wrote: "1. Severian's memory is not as perfect as he claims it to be. ."

I don't have the exact bit in the book (it's in the second one I believe) but there is a place where he says he..."

I just read this part which made me question Severian's memory:

"But I can remember more than many would credit: the position of each object on a table I walked past when I was a child, and even that I have recalled some scene to mind previously and how that remembered incident differed from the memory of it I have now."

Andrea wrote: "Mind, I wasn't too impressed with his behaviour around women......"

and...

Silvana wrote: "The treatment on female characters here also reminded me of Dying Earth. Why of course it is easy for them to fall into the MC's arms. And of course the MC loved them all even though he seemed to confuse love and lust and his true love changed every chapter...."

I agree. This is probably the one part about this book that I really hoped would get explained in some way. I felt there must be some reason why Severian's relationships with women are so weird. There are some theories I've read (view spoiler)[ like, for example, that everyone he "loves" is in some way related to him (hide spoiler)], but none of them are that convincing in my eyes.

Andrea wrote: "...this is essentially his memoirs until he reminds us...and points out how good his memory is, over and over and over again) and at this moment in the story he doesn't know what the Claw does either. Though he does seem to know who/what the Conciliator is while the reader doesn't get filled in."

Indeed, however, if you're very keen about it, you'll notice there are slight variations in his retelling of the same events, again and again. So, if he has a perfect memory, why does his story keep changing? That's one of the bigger, and I'd argue, better questions.

As for the Conciliator, you begin to get a sneaking suspicion of an understanding throughout the series, and it gets vaguely explained in the trippiest way possible by the end of the series, even more so in Urth of the New Sun.

Emily wrote: "I just read this part which made me question Severian's memory:

'But I can remember more than many would credit: the position of each object on a table I walked past when I was a child, and even that I have recalled some scene to mind previously and how that remembered incident differed from the memory of it I have now.'"

I've honestly begun to wonder whether all memories are correct. There are some truly mind-bending aspects to the books, like Father Inire's mirrors, for example. A lot of that gets "explained" inasmuch as there are things beyond Severian's comprehension, thus, beyond his ability to explain to the reader. However, if you choose to believe Severian's accounts as his best interpretation of the truth, then there's more than time-travelling green men that influence the narrative.

Dylan wrote: "I felt there must be some reason why Severian's relationships with women are so weird. There are some theories I've read (view spoiler), but none of them are that convincing in my eyes. "

I can see some merits to the theory in your spoiler(view spoiler)[. Dorcas could in some ways be Severian's mother, as she mostly tries to protect him from harm, and selflessly meet his needs. Despite the uneasy oedipal implications, nonetheless, Dorcas ultimately seeks her son.

Dorcas' husband, in the botanical gardens, is searching for his wife, 'Cas', and in Sword of the Lictor, you meet Casdoe, mother of Severian and Severia. (hide spoiler)] I don't think any of it is in the least conclusive, but damned if it doesn't make me think.

A handful of chapters in and I really have no idea what's going on. Judging from most of the comments above, that seems to be a common thing. So far, I don't dislike it but the story hasn't really pulled me in yet.

Hoping to make some more progress today and see if I can't get a little more involved.

All the stuff within the spoiler tags above are mindblowing.

Doug wrote: "A handful of chapters in and I really have no idea what's going on. Judging from most of the comments above, that seems to be a common thing. So far, I don't dislike it but the story hasn't really ..."

I have never been able to follow the story in a Gene Wolfe book, which is why I decided not to read this book club read. The writing style is just very confusing to me.

Silvana wrote: "Thanks Angry_Giant for the explanation. Hmm somehow despite getting some insights I still do not care for Severian and the others. Characters are important for me to enjoy a story, not just plot. T..."

I admit the story is intriguing, but I am not enjoying this enough to want to reread it. I might continue the series if only to achieve some sense of closure, but in regards to this there are so many other books I'd prefer to spend my time on.

All that said, I do find the discussion very helpful in understanding just what the heck is going on.

Yes I agree with you, Emily. Even though this is not a fave of mine, I am glad we have lots of insights in this thread. This is what a group read should be about, you might not like the book but you get to enjoy the discussion.

I am seriously struggling to get into this one. I don't feel any real interest in Severian and the long-winded style isn't doing it for me when I don't care for the character. It's funny because based on the blurb, the discussion and comments above, I feel like it's a book I should be enjoying! I suspect at this stage it's going to be a book that I'm going to be dipping in and out of over a long period of time rather than a gripping need-to-read-it-now kind of deal... oh well. It's always good to try something new and I've never read any Gene Wolfe before.

Silvana wrote: "Yes I agree with you, Emily. Even though this is not a fave of mine, I am glad we have lots of insights in this thread. This is what a group read should be about, you might not like the book but yo..."

We all come here to find out it's not just us that's confused, I know I felt better that everyone seems to be having trouble making sense of things :o) I have two unrelated books still to go and then I might try the third book. Don't want to leave it too long or else I'll forget all the weird details and still miss the point when maybe some get explained down the line...

Andrea wrote: "We all come here to find out it's not just us that's confused, I know I felt better that everyone seems to be having trouble making sense of things :o)"

Haha! Exactly this.

I'm now 73% of the way through with this, and I'm still trying to piece things together. It may be that I'm working with the wrong pieces, though.

Wolfe doesn't explain everything until you need it. After you finish the first 4 books, it will all make sense. Try enjoying speculating about things, it's quite fun.

After you finish the first 4 books, it will all make sense...."

I disagree. I've read all 4 books three times. I've read many reviews and lengthy discussions by others who have also read it multiple times.

Some of it might make more sense, but all? Absolutely not. The beauty of this book (if there is any) is that the deeper you dig into it, the less it makes sense.

Indeed, I think it would go against Wolfe's hardcore Catholic sensibilities if everything in the story could be understood by mere mortals.

Dylan wrote: "After you finish the first 4 books, it will all make sense...."

I disagree. I've read all 4 books three times. I've read many reviews and lengthy discussions by others who have also read it multi..."

To me that just sounds terrible, I hate unanswered questions so I'm glad I didn't even pick this book up.

Roger wrote: "To me that just sounds terrible...."

Don't get me wrong. I do recommend reading it, and reading all the way through.

It's just that sometimes, the "value" of a book does not necessarily correspond with how well you understand it, or even how much you like it. This is one of those.

I definitely don't understand it, and the jury's still out on whether or not I even like it, but I see the value in it and consider it a "good" book.

Also, as I mention above, it tends to stick with you and almost dares you to read again and try to figure it all out.

Chronicles of Elantra by Michelle Sagara is a bit like that. While the overall plot is normal and straightforward, there are big chunks which involve the magic system that is bewildering, fascinating, but incomprehensible (basically like trying to really grasp quantum mechanics, you understand it on some level but can never hope to really, truly grasp it), however I found the "almost but not" understanding worked there and I'm hoping to apply it to this series...however this one is significantly different because it's not just the worldbuilding/magic system that is incomprehensible but so is the plot itself :) And frankly, the characters too. Interesting challenge.

Dylan wrote: "It's just that sometimes, the "value" of a book does not necessarily correspond with how well you understand it, or even how much you like it. This is one of those.

I definitely don't understand it, and the jury's still out on whether or not I even like it, but I see the value in it and consider it a "good" book.

Also, as I mention above, it tends to stick with you and almost dares you to read again and try to figure it all out."

I finally finished this past Friday. I was on an airplane for several hours and made myself finish it. There are now even more things I don't understand. I dislike Severian more than I did when I was halfway through the book.

And yet darn it all...I feel compelled to read the rest of the books in the series. The problem is there are so many other books I would prefer to read, but if I leave a big enough gap between this and the next story, I will be even more lost than I am now.

In trying to understand why I want to keep reading, I've determined that I need closure. Half my brain is warning me that I will not get any closure from this series of books. The other half of my brain can't help but try. Regardless of the complexity and my dislike of the main character, it is well-written and grows on you a bit.

I just got through the third book. My impression was that it started to develop something resembling a plot, some random elements are given a bit more meaning/purpose (though don't expect not to have new weird and random stuff), and while I had actually started off sort of liking Severian, by the end of the third book I decided the guy was a Vulcan and I no longer sympathized with him. He had emotions but they didn't touch him. He'll talk about how he loved someone, then they'll die and he'll shrug his shoulders and just move on completely unaffected. He'll fixate on things, but not because he really cared/loved/etc but almost because his memory won't let him forget (though yet again there were at least two references to him not remembering what happened, Wolfe is really making us question Severian as a narrator). In fact the only "character" I now like is Terminus Est...

And yet I'm all the more curious about the hints we get along the way about what the New Sun is, who the Concilliator was, what purpose (if any) Severian may have. And even more so, how can one have a conclusion to a story when we don't know yet what the story is :)

Book four is planned for June, since already the few weeks between book 2 and 3 caused me to forget entire incidents, so can't leave it for long.

Andrea wrote: "Book four is planned for June.."

Looking forward to reading your reactions after you finish.

Looks like someone went ahead and wrote a New Sun dictionary. Goodreads recommended it to me when it saw I was reading the series. In case anyone gets really desperate enough to have at least some of the symbolism explained.

Taking a deep breath and diving into book 4 now. I also have book 5

In the meantime, was wondering if the Long Sun series by Wolfe has any connection to the New Sun? And the Short Sun series. Are they worth a read?

Andrea wrote: "I just got through the third book. My impression was that it started to develop something resembling a plot, some random elements are given a bit more meaning/purpose (though don't expect not to ha..."

Book 3 is my favourite. I found Mount Typhon to be one of my favourite bits of world-building, and has stuck with me for the past year since I've first (and last) read it. My re-read of Sword & Citadel keeps getting postponed, but it's something I look forward to.

Were you able to make any sense of Severian & Severia? Casdoe? Do you think there is intended symbolism in those names, or do you think Wolfe threw in a purposeful red herring, to say some coincidences are merely that?

It's been a while since I read it, but Fechin, I believe, was described as having long monkey-arms, and I believe Father Inire is also described as ape-like. Did you get the sense there is a connection?

I'm glad you're sticking thru with the series. I look forward to reading your thoughts once you're done.