Reading the Detectives discussion

Published in 1950 this was promoted on both sides of the Atlantic as Agatha Christie's 50th book, It is often considered the best of all the Miss Marple novels - but you decide!

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread. Many thanks - enjoy!

I agree that it is the best Miss M book. It certainly is my favorite. Beautifully plotted and written. And a stunning ending! And fortunately, there is a wonderful TV adaptation of it, with Joan Hickson as Miss M.

Ooh, I haven't watched the Joan Hickson adaptation yet, but I do have it - I will give it a look very soon, maybe even this afternoon as a Bank Holiday treat!

I guessed a few plot twists in this one but I think that was just because some of its ideas have been much copied since it was published.

It is certainly an excellent novel - great setting, good characters, intriguing plot. I love the beginning, where they all read the add in the newspaper.

Excellent book. Miss M did herself proud. I feel so lax for never picking up on Dora's using different names. I listened to the book on audio so didn't have a chance with the spelling discrepancy. I even played the letter twice as I know to look for clues in letters.

That was quite clever, wasn't it, Sandy? I think I knew the story so well that I couldn't help seeing it very obviously this time round, but I still enjoyed it. Poor Dora...

Susan wrote: "That was quite clever, wasn't it, Sandy? I think I knew the story so well that I couldn't help seeing it very obviously this time round, but I still enjoyed it. Poor Dora..."

One feels so sorry for her- poor thing.

This is my 4th or 5th read so I was concentrating on picking up clues as well- her conversation with Miss M in the tea shop is very telling- Lettie as beautiful and having to bear so much in one sentence and then not much to look at and a financial whiz of sorts in the other.

The clues are there, aren't they, but it helps if you know them :)

I watched the Joan Hickson version yesterday and thought it was excellent. A bonus to see Kevin Whately as a put-upon sergeant in this, a couple of years before Inspector Morse started!

Yes, it is a good version. I recorded it to re-watch too.

I also "re-read" the book this time by listening to the audio version. Mine was narrated by Joan Hickson, an added bonus!

Sounds perfect, Pghfan :)

I re-watched A Murder Is Announced, the Joan Hickson version that is. I can't tell you how many times I watched it overall, but I watched it plenty of times, I can remember a lot of the dialogue and mouth it at the same time it's playing. It's a classic and a perfect adaptation in every way. Perfect cast, faithful to the book, and a definitive Miss Marple to boot--this is how an Agatha Christie adaptation should be, unlike the travesty that's being done today. Though this adaptation was filmed 32 years ago, this remains the best version of the story, unlike the one done with Geraldine McEwan.

L-M, I totally agree about the Hickson adaptation. Just perfect!

What did you all think of the ending scene when Miss Marple is found hidden in the cupboard mimicking Dora Bunner's voice? This scene is often heavily criticized by the critics. Did anyone found the scene hokey or did you think it added a layer to the story, specifically to Letitia (aka Charlotte) Blacklock's character?

If you look at practically all of the Marples, there is almost always some trick at the end to bring the culprit out into the open, and this one is not different. I agree that it doesn't sound particularly Miss Marple-like, but it does do the job!

Pghfan wrote: "If you look at practically all of the Marples, there is almost always some trick at the end to bring the culprit out into the open, and this one is not different. I agree that it doesn't sound part..."

You're definitely right, Pghfan, it definitely does the job. Not only that but it says a lot about Letitia Blacklock and how she didn't kill Dora Bunner out of mere spite but that she didn't want her cover to be blown. When Dora died, Letitia genuinely felt sorry for what she did and for what she lost, but she was fearful of being found out and unfortunately, Dora had to be the next victim. But I feel that Miss Blacklock did love Dora.

Pghfan wrote: "I agree that it is the best Miss M book. It certainly is my favorite. Beautifully plotted and written. And a stunning ending!"

And don't forget the cake--Delicious Death! Who can forget that? This is one of my favorite lines of dialogue from the book:

It will be rich, rich, of a melting richness! And on top I will put the icing - chocolate icing - I make him so nice - and write on it Good Wishes. These English people with their cakes that tastes of sand, never never, will they have tasted such a cake. Delicious, they will say - delicious - '

Her face clouded again.

'Mr. Patrick. He called it Delicious Death. My cake! I will not have my cake called that!'

'It was a compliment really,' said Miss Blacklock. 'He meant it was worth dying to eat such a cake.'

Those critics who think Christie couldn't write worth a bean need to take a look at her work again. Agatha Christie's fans beg to differ. Her writing is short, sweet, snappy and witty. And who would think to call a cake Delicious Death?

LovesMysteries wrote: "Pghfan wrote: "I agree that it is the best Miss M book. It certainly is my favorite. Beautifully plotted and written. And a stunning ending!"

And don't forget the cake--Delicious Death! Who can fo..."

Here's a recipe- no I haven't tried it yet but I had come across one some years ago. Don't know if this is the same:
http://www.notquitenigella.com/2010/0...

I had completely forgotten Tiglath Pilesar's role in solving the mystery.

I totally agree about the Joan Hickson shows - they are usually remarkably true to the story.

The cake recipe sounds very much like the one Mitzi described. I was wondering where the raisins came in, but now I see!

Pghfan wrote: "The cake recipe sounds very much like the one Mitzi described. I was wondering where the raisins came in, but now I see!"

I very much like the cake that was shown in the Joan Hickson version of the story.

It was a time of rationing, so the cake would have appeared more decadent too.

It was interesting that Julia/Emma thought of Miss Marple as prying and didn't like her- something we only saw in her earlier appearances. But then she did have something to hide so the prying would have bothered her on another level.

Well, Miss Marple was presenting herself as a nosy old woman, so I think younger members of the household would see her as that. Someone coming to poke and pry into what happened and, if you do have something to hide, that would obviously alarm you. Mind you, lots of the characters had various things to hide.

LovesMysteries wrote: "What did you all think of the ending scene when Miss Marple is found hidden in the cupboard mimicking Dora Bunner's voice? This scene is often heavily criticized by the critics. Did anyone found th..."

Now that you point this out, it does seem pretty unlikely that Miss Marple would be able to do Dora's voice so convincingly! But this didn't strike me when I was reading as I was so anxious about Mitzi at this point.

I wonder that because Letitia/Charlotte was pretty unhinged at this end point, that the mimicry really needed to be all that good. Just a passing resemblance and the name Lottie might have been enough.

Pghfan wrote: "I wonder that because Letitia/Charlotte was pretty unhinged at this end point, that the mimicry really needed to be all that good. Just a passing resemblance and the name Lottie might have been eno..."

That's what makes this scene work so convincingly, as you pointed out, Pghfan. So although the scene may appear hokum at first glance, it works. For Charlotte's attempt to drown Mitzi over the kitchen sink while the others are in the next room, it just speaks of her state of mind at that point and how that fear of being caught lead to it.

Pghfan wrote: "I wonder that because Letitia/Charlotte was pretty unhinged at this end point, that the mimicry really needed to be all that good. Just a passing resemblance and the name Lottie might have been eno..."

I agree- it might just be her way of talking that she copied or tried to a little which would have done the trick. Charlotte was pretty much over the edge at this point.

I definitely think A Murder Is Announced is one of the best. It's rigorously plotted, well-characterized, funny, convincing, and has a stunning series of clues and eventual solution.

I suppose you could argue that she used the 'one old woman looks so like another' plot rather a large number of times, sometimes less convincingly than others, but it's completely acceptable here because the two women in question were sisters and Charlotte sensibly settled in a village where she was not well-known.

One thing that has always puzzled me about the book is how unsympathetic the characters are to Mitzi's traumatic experiences as a war refugee, with members of her family murdered. She is basically told to stop making a fuss all the time! I do find it interesting that books written during and just after WW2 discuss the war and the Nazis in straightforward, unselfconscious ways which would be really difficult now as the whole topic is considered so sensitive. However, I have also realized recently that at the time the book was written (1948?), it's likely that the truth of the Holocaust was still not widely known.

Sorry to introduce a darker note to this discussion, but it's a point I have often wondered about.

Annabel wrote: "One thing that has always puzzled me about the book is how unsympathetic the characters are to Mitzi's traumatic experiences as a war refugee,.."

I also found this very disconcerting - it appears that Mitzi's references to seeing family members killed are turned into a joke, and at one point we are even told that Patrick sent her a postcard saying the Gestapo were after her!

Saying that she is a liar surely couldn't excuse this very dark humour at the time, given that these experiences were all too real for so many people. I think the Holocaust was well-known by the late 1940s, as the Nuremberg trials had taken place, although obviously a lot more has been learned since, so it is really puzzling that this element was included.

I suppose it could be taken as Christie portraying the insularity of the villagers - interestingly, Letty/Lotty takes a different view, valuing Mitzi and pointing out that she really has suffered. And of course in the end Mitzi is a heroine, proving she is brave and risking her life.

I meant to add that of course Christie chose a refugee as her other most famous character, Poirot.

Ater finishing the Miss Marples I want to get into reading Poirot too, and I will be interested to see how other characters are portrayed as reacting to him.

Sadly, I think it was a common experience for those returning home after being liberated from concentration camps to find that nobody wanted to hear their story. I read the biography of a woman who was liberated after the war, having lost her father. Her mother and sister had survived in hiding and she said that fact her mother could not bear to listen to what had happened to her caused her immense depression. The over riding sensation seemed to forget about it and move on. It might have been a generational thing, but there was a lot of very heartless behaviour towards Mitzi in this book I agree.

Judy wrote: "Annabel wrote: "I suppose it could be taken as Christie portraying the insularity of the villagers ..."

I think this was what she meant to portray plus the general distrust of people of anyone "foreign"- as necessarily wrong and untrustworthy- xenophobia of sorts - and that's why I wondered whether this was brought on by the war.

I vaguely remember this TV programme I watched once where the locals were all against the German character because of the Boer war since his letters had stamps saying Deutsche, and this other character trying to explain that this wasn't the same as Dutch. I can't remember what this was in though.

I definitely think Christie is making fun of insular attitudes at times in the book, for instance when the waitress complains that Rudi was late for their date and says she didn't like being stood up by a foreigner - as though that made any difference! And I'm sure the war would have heightened suspicion of anyone with a German accent.

This discussion reminds me that in old Suffolk dialect, "furren" applied to people from other counties, never mind other countries! Although not everyone took that attitude of course.

Susan wrote: "It is certainly an excellent novel - great setting, good characters, intriguing plot. I love the beginning, where they all read the add in the newspaper."

So true.

To be fair, Mitzi brought a lot of it on herself!

Lady Clementina wrote: "LovesMysteries wrote: "Pghfan wrote: "I agree that it is the best Miss M book. It certainly is my favorite. Beautifully plotted and written. And a stunning ending!"

And don't forget the cake--Deli..."

Lady C, thanks so much for posting the link to the cake, created by Jane Asher for an Agatha Christie anniversary celebration - it looks absolutely stunning!

I'm not sure I would dare to try it as rich fruit cake tends to give me indigestion, so the combination of fruit and chocolate sounds a bit dangerous, as the cake's name suggests... but it almost looks as if it would be worth it.

A pity we can't all get together and sample a slice. ;)

Mentioning the cake reminds me, how could Charlotte be sure that Dora would have a headache and require the aspirins? I'm not sure if I missed something here?

Surely she might have ended up having to wait for weeks for a headache to occur? A rich cake wouldn't necessarily have that effect!

It made me remember when I was younger and you were automatically given aspirin, rather than paracetamol, which is far more common these days.

Judy wrote: "Mentioning the cake reminds me, how could Charlotte be sure that Dora would have a headache and require the aspirins? I'm not sure if I missed something here?

Surely she might have ended up havin..."

Maybe Charlotte knew Dora was susceptible to headaches, considering the fact that Dora was rather scatty and worried at times and this could have caused them. But I guess this doesn't really answer the question of how Charlotte could be certain that her friend would have a headache on her birthday and in need of an aspirin. I'm wondering, was it Charlotte's intention to give Dora a birthday party and poison her then or did Charlotte intend to rid of Dora at some point when the next headache came, but unfortunately, the one at the birthday party was a good opportunity to act?

How did anyone feel about the epilogue? There are some who don't like epilogues or even prologues for that matter, but did you think the epilogue brought a satisfying end to the story or would you rather have ended the story with Chapter 23 "Evening At The Vicarage"?

Judy wrote: "Mentioning the cake reminds me, how could Charlotte be sure that Dora would have a headache and require the aspirins? I'm not sure if I missed something here?

Surely she might have ended up havin..."

I did wonder about that as well- but it slipped my mind later. As Lovesmysteries says, perhaps she knew Dora was susceptible to these- may be more so after a party and rich food.

Re the epilogue, LovesMysteries, I think Christie had a tendency to tie up everything which she just couldn't resist!

Lady Clementina wrote: "I had completely forgotten Tiglath Pilesar's role in solving the mystery."

I was puzzled by the name of the cat - just googled it and discovered this was the name of three ancient kings of Assyria.

I rather liked the epilogue bringing things full circle, with the Gazette continuing to be a must for every home in the village.

Judy wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "I had completely forgotten Tiglath Pilesar's role in solving the mystery."

I was puzzled by the name of the cat - just googled it and discovered this was the name of three ..."
Yes- I think I looked that up the first time I'd read the book. She has one or two interesting kitties in her books (also non-Marple ones) that have interesting parts to play. Dogs too, come to think of it.

Judy wrote: "I rather liked the epilogue bringing things full circle, with the Gazette continuing to be a must for every home in the village."

I did too- as Susan says, she does like to tie-up things- let us know how things turned out with everyone.

I enjoyed the last lines too - how could anyone NOT want the Gazette every Friday?

Lady Clementina wrote: "I did wonder about that as well- but it slipped my mind later. As Lovesmysteries says, perhaps she knew Dora was susceptible to these- may be more so after a party and rich food."

Charlotte was probably CERTAIN that Dora would have a headache at that birthday party. With all the excitement and worry Dora had because of the death of Rudi Schertz, and because Dora was susceptible to headaches after eating such rich food and with a party at that, Charlotte took that great opportunity to murder her friend, unfortunately.

In the end do you think Charlotte was really guilty for what she did to her friend Dora?