Our Shared Shelf discussion

I've only just started reading my copy of Women Who Run With the Wolves, but when I was searching the library for it, I came across a book called IRON JOHN: Men and Masculinity by Robert Bly. The summary on the online catalogue reads:

"Robert Bly writes that it is clear to men that the images of adult manhood given by popular culture are worn out, that a man can no longer depend on them. Iron John searches for a new vision of what a man is or could be, drawing on psychology, anthropology, mythology, folklore and legend. Robert Bly looks at the importance of the Wild Man (reminiscent of the Wild Woman in Women Who Run With the Wolves), who he compares to a Zen priest, a shaman or a woodman..."

I think it would be interesting to read in juxtaposition to Estes' work and I plan on doing so once I have finished WWRWW. In the meantime, I am curious if anyone else has read or heard of IRON JOHN?
Please feel free to share and discuss, hopefully I can read fast enough and join in!

Heard neither of the Author nor of the book before, but reading some reviews for it, it seems indeed to have been strongly inspired by Estes' book.

I haven't read Iron John; but I recall when it came out that it created a movement where groups of men would gather, in the woods around campfires, to talk about masculinity and finding their true selves.

I have never heard of it either. If the author was inspired by Women Who Run With The Wolves it maybe worth reading. In amongst many other books I want to read. Lol!

Interesting thought. Nice to know people are looking into this.

Sounds worth reading. Maybe I have more luck with this one than with WWRWTW. I didn't even finish that one (yet).

I have read Iron John and it helped me understand my fiance in a much better way.
I read women who run with the wolves back in October and I was deeply inspired. I went looking for a way to help my fiance because he has had a difficult life and his trying to become his own wild, glorious man. I recommend it to anyone who has a man in their life. Especially if you have a son.

Don't bother with Iron John. It's the typical "men aren't allowed to be "manly/masculine" anymore b/c women are taking over and squashing alpha males" and blah blah typical chauvinistic blah. Pass on it. Trust me.

I have not read WWRWW yet, but I'll listen to opinions on that.

I have only been able to get through half of Iron John, so I am not sure how it progressed. I love WWRTW and I think is Estes was inspired by Bly in any way, it may have been as an answer to him. I found the book missed the mark in a big way. I could not even bring myself to finish it. Backlash by Susan Faludi is a great book for delving into feminist thought, and I recall her being highly critical of Bly.

@Seregon correct me if i am wrong but don't men have any say in the society anymore? Personally, I feel like we are all just living in a song by Beyonce, who runs the world?

I believe that feminism isn't about the act of silencing men. Wait! If we are, then how different are feminism to chauvinist?

I don't know what you mean by too much but I feel that in recent days, men's rights doesn't matter anymore. Everything is about women's rights these days. We still exist, ya know. Men can't be men anymore because anything that is labelled as men's activities is wrong in a woman's eyes. We, men really do try to cater the world so we can both coexist in harmony. Don't take away our privileges just because we are fighting for women's privileges.

Benarji wrote: "I don't know what you mean by too much but I feel that in recent days, men's rights doesn't matter anymore. Everything is about women's rights these days. We still exist, ya know. Men can't be men ..."

No one is takng away anything from anyone! Other than the fact of removing the barrier of inequality that still exists in multiple areas of existence. You seem like you are afraid of losing something Benarji. What "privelage" might you speak of that men can have and women cannot? Or that you think will be taken away? Allowing everyone to have an equal position in their lives, removing the IDGAF attitude that men hide behind because they can't or are unwilling to allow themselves to express themselves constructively or allow their feelings to be known to others instead of keeping them locked up and unavailable. What loss of power over yourself are you afraid of?

Men built the world can't whine about now. comparison between what men have to contend with and that of women is appalling disingenuous and insulting.

When speaking in such terms please specify that you are speaking for yourselves not all men. I do not agree in any way with the intent or assertion of such arguments

@ross sorry, i will from hereon forth to be specifically talking about masculine men.

@Robert if you are well tuned to the conversation, you will realize that a masculine man's opinion is being gravely deprived - the author. We don't have to agree on terms but would it be so hard to respect the opinions that this book is founded on. I don't believe that feminism is a movement that deprives a man's masculinity because it is beyond comprehensible level. Speaking of feminism, what is your ideal belief on the matter? What do you think feminism is about?

Benarji wrote: "Men can't be men anymore because anything that is labelled as men's activities is wrong in a woman's eyes.
..."

Name some, then we can discuss.

Benarji wrote: "@ross sorry, i will from hereon forth to be specifically talking about masculine men.

@Robert if you are well tuned to the conversation, you will realize that a masculine man's opinion is being g..."

Abject nonsense men run the world and look at the state of it. We have to find a balance and attempting to defect from the obvious abuse women around the word suffer is not the way forward.

If the patriarchy does not serve men and we know it does not serve women then we should expend our energy in its removal and replacement with a world for all.

Making excuses for ourselves and once again blaming women is not acceptable now and should never be again.

@Gerd well, for starters, the sexualization of women. I thought all men does it but apparently, I have been proven wrong.

@Ross respect works both ways. If you wanna be understood, you gotta first seek to understand. It is unfair that you wanna shut down the perspectives that appears incoherent to you. Feminism isn't about man is wrong and woman are right.

Anyways, since we are gathered here as men, I would love to know your opinions on feminism and how we can impact the society. What changes do you believe that we can achieve with our work here.

Benarji wrote: "@Gerd well, for starters, the sexualization of women. I thought all men does it but apparently, I have been proven wrong.
..."

Saying men can't sexualize women anymore because women object being made objects?
I, dunno, it does sound to me that they do have a valid point there... just, sayin'.

Benarji wrote: "@Gerd well, for starters, the sexualization of women. I thought all men does it but apparently, I have been proven wrong.

@Ross respect works both ways. If you wanna be understood, you gotta firs..."

I understand you and men like you all to well Benarji. I disagree with what you write pure and simple. You are wrong and attitudes like yours only hinder human progress in my view.

Men have to be responsible for what the have wrote if not we do all women and men a disservice. Time to move on leave the sexism behind.

@Ross I believe that as long as our primal instincts exist, there will always be sexism. Maybe the solution isn't in eradication because how can we turn off our primal instincts?

Benarji your argument is you are sexist and its innate and therefore unavoidable. Then what is your purpose here.

before you go look around you humans evolve like everything else if your attitudes existed at all they are gone now.

you are a sexist, misogynist actually because you chose to be most men won't. That desire to be better that is primal to all forms of humanity.

I suggests if nothing else you read about the wild woman and the wolves.

I have read this topic since shortly after it was created, and I need to say I have the need to reply to the last couple of tweets now:

Emma wrote: "Benarji wrote: "@Seregon correct me if i am wrong but don't men have any say in the society anymore? Personally, I feel like we are all just living in a song by Beyonce, who runs the world?

I bel..."
Feminism is very much about equality. Equality of the sexes, for everyone.
It is debatable, different branches of feminism see this in a different light. For me personally tho, it is equal chances for everyone. It is about equal respect for everyone. I don't want to rob men of everything, I want to lift everyone else up so that we ALL are on the same height. No more looking down and up towards each other.

Benarji, feminism isn't about silencing men. Because that is misandry. But that does not mean we cannot call out someone for their behaviour. Feminism does not mean we need to be always friendly to women and always hateful towards men.
I'm sorry to hear that the women around you see men's activities as wrong. In my opinion, there are only activities, and each gender can exercise them. Society taught us that there are men's and women's activities.
You and I have a different understanding of privilege. For some parts of a population to have a privilege, others need to not have it. This is in itself not equal, as some are given an advantage because of their ascribed status, not their achieved status. We all have different privileges and for gender equality, we need to get rid of them, in my opinion, because otherwise not everyone is free. I look forward to the day when my white privilege is busted, I am afraid tho that I will not witness this day anymore. I am not afraid of losing my privileges, I look forward to the day, because I know what it feels like to be oppressed. It sucks, and I cannot wait for the day when we all are equal. When no one is oppressed anymore. Everyone gets advantage from being equal - we can be our true self then. What is bad about this? When men don't have to hide their emotions anymore, when women can be strong too, for example?
And please, be careful not to brush over everyone and speak for all. Make sure that everybody sees when it is your personal opinion, to which you are entitled of course, it is a problem tho if you speak for all and not everyone agrees with you, which is bound to happen in such a big group as OurSharedShelf has grown to be.
I told you already what I think feminism is about, and I know there are different branches, with different methods and goals, and I can assure you that I do not agree with all feminists. I told you already that I think we need to call out misbehaviour, for lack of a better word, in other feminists.
The vast majority of humans nowadays live in patriarchies, and look at the state the world is in. Oppression of women at the hands of men needs to stop. Now, I don't say that every man in a patriarchy is complicit in upholding the power structures that we have, but it would be better for all if we get rid of the ones we have now.
A thing you might have overlooked ( I really hope you just overlooked it, and didn't leave them out purposefully), when talking about sexualisation of women is gay men. Not all men sexualize women, gay men do not. Androphile persons in general do not. Be careful with what you say, otherwise you can really hurt people.
You might want to check your own words, because yes, feminism is not about men being wrong and women being right. We need to listen to one another, and learn from each other. Something many here are very capable of.
Maybe you should some scripts of Marx, or My Life on the Road, they have both analysed societies in a very good way.

Emma wrote: "Benarji wrote: "@Seregon correct me if i am wrong but don't men have any say in the society anymore? Personally, I feel like we are all just living in a song by Beyonce, who runs the world?

In hopes to stay within the tread topic I have just requested a copy of Iron Man from the library. I should get it in a few days; I am looking forward to come back to this with the material at hand.

Meanwhile, Benarji: as an immigrant woman, I am far from feeling that "we are all just living in a song by Beyonce". And as a witness to the recent events in the realm of white supremacists, I am quite positive that she doesn't run the world.

But mostly, I felt a little alarmed by your use of the word "privilege".

Quoting:
Benarji wrote " I don't know what you mean by too much but I feel that in recent days, men's rights doesn't matter anymore. Everything is about women's rights these days. We still exist, ya know. Men can't be men anymore because anything that is labelled as men's activities is wrong in a woman's eyes. We, men really do try to cater the world so we can both coexist in harmony. Don't take away our privileges just because we are fighting for women's privileges. "

First things first: the men in my path who had framed their behavior along the lines of
"really do try to cater the world so we can both coexist in harmony" had an insufferably condescending perspective, one such that deprived them of the enduring truthful relationships they sought. Another thing that I observed they all had in common was delusion, brought about by their privileged background.

Why, treating people as if they are equals - as if? - precludes the fact that people ARE equal. And people can tell it, the same way people can differentiate a sincere smile from a fake one. I am sorry, but I am not at all impressed with men who "try to cater the world so we can both coexist in harmony". That doesn't sound like the language of equality to me.

Now, "privilege". Rebecca Solnit had just provided me (right before I read this thread) with a helpful neologism of hers:
"privelobliviousness", which tries "to describe the way that being the advantaged one, the represented one, often means being the one who doesn't need to be aware and, often, isn't. Which is a form of loss in its own way." (my italics)

It is a form of loss.

The word privilege also brings to my mind a non-zero-sum worldview (patriarchy would be proud). This sentence
"Don't take away our privileges just because we are fighting for women's privileges" asks to be pictured as an arena of winners, but for there to be winners as one side is pitched against the other, then there also ought to be somewhere a set of losers. If not from within the same sect of society, then from without. I am here thinking how something that is also called feminism has freed a class of women from domestic burdens at the expense of an entire population of foreign women who are now being kept within the category of "invisible", by none other than women who call themselves feminists. For me, such "feminism" fails humanity the same way a man saying "don't take away our privileges" fails humanity: by subscribing to a worldview of haves and have-nots. Lack of empathy comes often as a feature of privilege, and it, too, is a form of loss.

Rebecca Solnit has also provided me with a good way to end this Iron man business in a positive note:

"The arrival of the guys signifies a sea change, part of an extraordinary year for feminism, in which the conversation has been transformed, as have some crucial laws, while new voices and constituencies joined in. There have always been men who agreed on the importance of those women's issues, and some people who spoke up, but never in such numbers or with such effort. And we need them".
(from The Mother of All Questions {this quote being about the year of 2014})

And we need them.
Thanks guys!