Reading Envy Readers discussion

I know some of you are already there so I'm going to go ahead and open discussion for week 2 of our readalong.

It surprised me that Adam was so taken with Cathy right from the start, especially when most others got a negative vibe from her from the start. He seemed to be infatuated with her without even knowing anything about her. Maybe he just needed someone to nurture? And just when I thought Cathy's behavior couldn't get worse.....

I totally agree Jeff! Again, I was so struck by how JS picked up on how some people blindly choose to ignore what they are seeing. She clearly tells him over and over that she doesn't want to be loved or build a relationship with him, but he doesn't listen. He blindly assumes that if he loves her, it will change her. Sort of like the people that get married thinking their spouse will change their mind about having children. Adam definitely needs a 12 step program to understand that he can only change himself!

I thought about this Jeff. With his own brother, Adam is able to determine how to make himself invisible. I thought for sure he would sense this otherness in Cathy, but it is fitting that Charles can sense that Cathy is not good.

and maybe, Adam is an example of someone who grew up being abused by his brother and now looks for abuse in a partner?

That's true. Although, Cathy seems pretty straight forward in her exchanges with him.

Elizabeth☮ wrote: "That's true. Although, Cathy seems pretty straight forward in her exchanges with him."

That's was is so annoying about him. He chooses to ignore reality even though she told him over and over that she wasn't interested in being a mother or wife. He keeps expecting her to change. Don't we all know people like that?

Don't you wish they would make a mini-series of 6-12 episodes of this work? It can't be done in two hours.

I discussed the movie with a co-worker and as I explained the plot line, he said to me, "That's not anything like the movie." I think it would be a great mini series.

It's interesting thinking about how Adam just believes his own "mythology" about certain people. He decides to accept his father's stories even though there is proof they aren't true. He believes that Cathy will be what he wants the perfect wife to be, even though she flat out tells him otherwise.

Whereas Charles is clear eyed even though he is the less likable brother in so many ways.

What is Steinbeck saying in contrasting these two? (I don't know ... just thinking out loud here.)

i totally agree Julie.

Ah. Nice observation Julie. That is right. In the face of the evidence, Adam still refuses to accept his father's faults. It is interesting how Adam doesn't see what is in front of him. What is the lesson?

Elizabeth☮ wrote: "I discussed the movie with a co-worker and as I explained the plot line, he said to me, "That's not anything like the movie." I think it would be a great mini series." I agree, it would be a great mini-series. The only movie version I've seen is the 1955 version which centers around Adam's children and picks up when they are of high school age. James Dean plays one of the twins. It's really good but that's too much story to shoehorn in to two hours.

That's the version he saw. And then sent us down a rabbit hole on James Dean. I haven't seen that movie.

I am migrating this comment over to the correct discussion thread, so sorry for an abrupt subject shift.

Okay, Andrew, can we talk about chapter 17 now? Holy moly!

I appreciate the way Steinbeck builds the suspense. It's not what's happening, but what's not happening that leads the reader into anxious anticipation. Cathy is doing nothing with her hands, silence pervades what should be an amiable meal, there is no wind, the builders sit idly under the tree, there is little light coming into the house, etc. Especially when contrasted with the perpetual activity at the Hamilton place, the idleness at Adam Trask's property is striking & unsettling.

I know Cathy is the villain but I guess we've come a long in describing sociopaths in literature I just don't find her that creepy. I'm wondering if we should be drawing some conclusion or connection between the few that see her for what she is (or at least that there is something not right about her) - Charles, Samuel and Lee

It's interesting that both Adam and Mr Edwards are completely taken in by Cathy and in the case Mr Edwards, Cathy ends up almost dead and in the case of Adam it's Adam that almost dies.

And what's with the psychology book? Why doesn't Samuel want anyone to know he's reading it? I've not read EoE before, is there some kind of foreshadowing here?

Well despite all the drama, my favorite scene in this section is Olive and her airplane ride.

Mary wrote: "I know Cathy is the villain but I guess we've come a long in describing sociopaths in literature I just don't find her that creepy. I'm wondering if we should be drawing some conclusion or connecti..."
Yes my favorite scene is Olive and the plane ride too. I laughed so hard I had to read the scene to my mother over the phone.

Mary & Carol, I loved the airplane scene, too!

I think there is certainly a connection to be drawn between those who see Cathy for what she is, although, not necessarily a distinct similarity. It seems that Charles sees his own "monstrosity" in her, Samuel sees a lack of what he knows of his own deep feeling and compassion, and Lee sees something perhaps altogether anomalous.

I agree, Mary, that the way others perceive Cathy is more striking than the outright description of her.

What about Lee? I found it upsetting that he acted as others expected but he is so much more. Samuel saw through his act but others are not paying attention. Lee also sees Cathy for her real nature. I'm wondering if Steinbeck is telling us something about each man's character through the interactions with Lee? Or maybe it's too early to know?

I think that is a good observation Amy. Lee becomes what others want him to be because it makes those around him more at ease. Perhaps Steinbeck is saying that is human nature: we see what we want to see. That explains Adam's inability to see Cathy.

I'm backtracking a bit but... chapter 12! What an interlude and overview of a century,

And then the first section of chapter 13, with Steinbeck (or the author representing the masses) bemoaning mass production. He also is linking the individual to the greatest creative achievements. I don't know if it plays out here but I was trying to think if it did in any of his other writings.. his characters aren't typically creative or inventive, but hard-working for sure... I wondered in the moment of reading it what he had in mind. Perhaps I'll find out.

P.s. At the end of section 1 Cathy drugs Adam to sleep with Charles right? So.... why do you think she did that?

Sara wrote: "I am migrating this comment over to the correct discussion thread, so sorry for an abrupt subject shift.

Okay, Andrew, can we talk about chapter 17 now? Holy moly!

I appreciate the way Steinbeck ..."

It does build and build so that the violence becomes shocking. I went to see Lady Macbeth recently at the cinema and heard thereafter the director discussing how boring life must have been for women with staff in isolated properties and he films her trying to avoid sleeping.
I was shocked by the biting scene and obviously the climax.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I'm backtracking a bit but... chapter 12! What an interlude and overview of a century,

And then the first section of chapter 13, with Steinbeck (or the author representing the masses) bemoaning ma..."

Because she's the worst ... and Steinbeck never lets us forget it. :-D

Also, my guess is that she can hold this over Charles. Though surely she is smart enough to know that he will use it as a weapon if he wants.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "P.s. At the end of section 1 Cathy drugs Adam to sleep with Charles right? So....why do you think she did that?" He HATED her, and saw right through her, and she knew that he was someone who could foul up her marriage of convenience to Adam. She used sex to get her way in the past and thought this was a way to break down the wall with Charles perhaps.

There was one extract that really struck me in this section ,other than chapter 17 when Cathy gives birth, which was Samuels description of the hanging he observes as a child and the cold eyes of the condemned man looking into him- chilling.
Also at the end of chapter 13 Samuel talks about the blackness on the valley "It's as though some old ghost haunted it out of the dead ocean below and troubled the air with unhappiness" I wondered whether that was giving us a clue to what will occur to the Trask family or a wider commentary on America and the depression? It seems very foreboding and such a contrast with the beautiful images that Jenny posted in thread for week 1.
Finally there was a mini series in the 1970's/80's with Jane Seymour as Cathy Ames- when looking for images on Google there she is as large as life!
Oh I also was curious about Adam's naivety as discussed by Jeff- in the earlier chapters there is a great contradiction between Adam and Charles's views of Cyrus which was interesting ( although the wedding night scene is a classic- presumably signalling the separate sacks at the birth ) , but then later Cathy's mum can't perceive flaws in her daughter whilst her father can and Liza and Samuel have differing impressions of Cathy. Perhaps cathy is just such a brilliant character who is certainly dominating the book at the moment.
Apologies for this very rambling and unfocussed post.

Julie wrote: "Because she's the worst......" Ha, ha! Yes, and just when you thought she couldn't top herself.......

Good point that she could use it down the road on Charles. Even though it is obvious that she's not sticking around she knows that her dealings with him are probably not over.

Andrew wrote: "There was one extract that really struck me in this section ,other than chapter 17 when Cathy gives birth, which was Samuels description of the hanging he observes as a child and the cold eyes of t..."

Maybe also Cathy is so very consistently herself that she serves as a basis for judging the other characters by their very reactions to her. How does one react to evil? Does one see it clearly? What habit of thought or judgment do we filter it through when we see it? Because evil is done through and by people, so Cathy is that litmus test.

Jeff wrote: "Julie wrote: "Because she's the worst......" Ha, ha! Yes, and just when you thought she couldn't top herself.......

Good point that she could use it down the road on Charles. Even though it is obv..."

I thought maybe it was also a spin on the idea of wanting to be known - he actually gets that she isn't a good person.

Jeff wrote: "It surprised me that Adam was so taken with Cathy right from the start, especially when most others got a negative vibe from her from the start. He seemed to be infatuated with her without even kno..."
I agree. I think part of Adam's wandering around indicated that he was without purpose after leaving the army. Cathy seemed to give him a purpose in life that he was looking for.

Chapter 15, part 2: I was surprised by the insightful dialogue between Samuel and Lee, about what people see/hear. Phew.

Chapter 15, part 3:
"...my name is Adam. So far I've had no Eden, let alone been driven out."

Andrew wrote: "There was one extract that really struck me in this section ,other than chapter 17 when Cathy gives birth, which was Samuels description of the hanging he observes as a child and the cold eyes of t..."
I was also surprised she could get past Liza because none of the "menfolk" can.

Mary wrote: "Well despite all the drama, my favorite scene in this section is Olive and her airplane ride..."
That had me in stitches and it was like Steinbeck knew we'd need a breather.