The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Finally the second installment for those of us who have been able to hold out! For those who haven't, don't worry about it and feel free to comment anyway!

The dark deed is done and now the two culprits must live with that weighing on them.

1. Prior to the fatal boating trip the two would be murderers conceal their feelings and have no more clandistine meetings. Camille takes Sunday walks around Paris, during which Therese is made to accompany him. She doesn't like to leave the shop and the Arcade but does enjoy leaving the city altogether on trips out into the country. Why do you think she seems to likes the country but not the city? Is it just because of childhood memories? A primal attachment to the forces of nature?

2. Therese becomes more alive in the country but the imagry which Zola uses often isn't gentle. Therese is shown as almost animilistic in her abandonment and Laurents violence and lusts and Nature itself is shown to match.
Behind them came Laurent, who had the sun streaming fiercely on the back of his neck, without appearing to notice it. He whistled and kicked the stones before him as he strolled along. Now and again there was a fierce glint in his eyes as he watched Therese's swinging hips.

Do you think Zola thought about the difference between the city and countryside and the physological effect that one or other could play on the minds and moods of people?

Nothing looks more painfully calm than an autumn twilight. The sun rays pale in the quivering air, the old trees cast their leaves. The country, scorched by the ardent beams of summer, feels death coming with the first cold winds. And, in the sky, there are plaintive sighs of despair. Night falls from above, bringing winding sheets in its shade.

3. During the murder Therese seems far more hesitant than Laurent. Were you expecting this? Do you think it lasts? In the short term or in the long term?

4. Laurent seemed to me to have more confidence at first:

When the report wsa completed, Laurent experienced lively joy, which penetrated his being like new life... At this hour, in the face of the certainty of impunity, the blood resumed flowing in his veins with delicious gentleness. The police had passed beside his crime, and seen nothing. They had been duped, for they had just acquitted him. He was saved.

At last he was rid of his crime. He had killed Camille. It was a matter that was settled, and would be spoken of no more. He was now going to lead a tranquil existence.

But then he had to go to the morgue every day to see if Camilles body had been found. Do you think that had an effect on his mental state? If so, why?

5. Time pases and it looks as if everything is settling down but then something happens and both Therese and Laurent seem to have attacks of fear and insomnia. What do you think is happening to them? Do you think it's relevant that it seemed to happen on the same night? Do you think that the two getting married will fix the problem?

The effect of fear and guilt, especially on Laurent, reminded me of The Tell-Tale Heart and Crime and Punishment. The dead person continues to have power over the murderers. In some ways it was an easier murder to commit than physically beating/choking/knifing someone. But Camille did display surprising strength when his life depended on it, and the scar is the permanent manifestation of it.

I finished the chapters scheduled for this thread.

What a good plot!

In the 10th century the people really believed that the police was 100% efficient to catch all the criminals? When I read Anatole France's Histoire Contemporaine series some people truly believed in that sort of thing. Today if someone express these kind of opinion everybody would laugh at them.

Robin wrote: "The effect of fear and guilt, especially on Laurent, reminded me of The Tell-Tale Heart and Crime and Punishment. The dead person continues to have power over the murderer..."

Oh I'd forgotten aobut The Tell-Tale Heart! Obviously the comparisons with C & P are obvious, but, yes, in TTTH especially it's the mind (and the body) which begins to disolve from the consequence of the guilt. Seeing things which aren't there, imagining suspecious looks and finally feeling as though the person is almost reaching up from the grave to punish the guilty.

Excellent remembering!

Does anyone else have any novels or short stories which they remember which deal with guilt in a similar manner?

Rafael wrote: "I finished the chapters scheduled for this thread.

What a good plot!

In the 10th century the people really believed that the police was 100% efficient to catch all the criminals? When I read Anat..."

Great isn't it! It's taking a great deal of self control to stop myself from charging on ahead.

As for the belief in the police prowess perhaps that is what they would like to believe people thought them capable of ;-)

Robin wrote: "But Camille did display surprising strength when his life depended on it,

Yes he did. Do you think it was adreneline perhaps which was bouying him up? He didn't seem to have a nervous collapse until a fair way after the killing.

Nicola wrote: "As for the belief in the police prowess perhaps that is what they would like to believe people thought them capable of ;-)"

Maybe it is this case. They did not believe in it, they hope that it was true. So, they could sleep at night.

Nicola wrote: "Robin wrote: "But Camille did display surprising strength when his life depended on it,

Yes he did. Do you think it was adreneline perhaps which was bouying him up? He didn't seem to have a nervou..."

Sorry if my comment was confusing. I agree that Laurent only got nervous much later, at first he was relieved. That was opposed to Therese who fell apart. This was convenient for her, because everyone thought she was the grieving widow. What surprised me was that the weakling Camille could put up a fight against Laurent, who was described as being a brute.

Robin wrote: "Sorry if my comment was confusing. I agree that Laurent only got nervous much later, at first he was relieved. That was opposed to Therese who fell apart. This was convenient for her, because everyone thought she was the grieving widow. What surprised me was that the weakling Camille could put up a fight against Laurent, who was described as being a brute. ."

Your post wasn't confusing at all - I also was surprised at the brutish actions of Laurent (not Camille because any animal fights when cornered and fighting for their life). The desire he had to physically stomp Camille's head into the ground with his boot but just... ugh!

And yes it was convenient for Therese. She has seemed to take a back role in everything so far. It was Laurent for first suggested the murder and he who 'planned' it and carried it out. Therese didn't know what he was planning and seemed to hesitate before getting into the punt. I'm wondering if she'll try to deny her complicitness further down the line.

Good point. I have not wondered about that, neither about that statement about Therese.

It does come up for Laurent, that at one point, he thinks of leaving Therese or leaving town, but he is afraid if he does that, she'll snitch on him. They are bound together forever by the crime.

Robin wrote: "It does come up for Laurent, that at one point, he thinks of leaving Therese or leaving town, but he is afraid if he does that, she'll snitch on him. They are bound together forever by the crime."

I'm sure you've noticed that they rather lost their desire for each other after the murder - perhaps looking at the other person was seeing a darkness reflected back at them that they didn't want to acknowledge?

And you are quite right - they are bound together now. I keep thinking of american noir stories like The Postman Always Rings Twice, and wondering when they are going to turn on each other ;-)

Do not do that! I am already curious for the next chapters.

Rafael wrote: "Do not do that! I am already curious for the next chapters."


Me too :-)

But what shouldn't I do? I didn't understand that.

Woah! I said it before, but this is REALLY powerful stuff. During the murder I was struck by references to 'flesh'. It was telling when Camille gouged Laurent's neck ... you just know that the wound is going to torture him. I've been trying to think like everyone else about novels with similar guilt themes but can only think of C & P. I've been watching House of Cards for the first time, and I switched from TV back to this novel and I had to laugh because the devious intrigue that went on before the marriage could have been a high powered political plot. Maybe Macbeth??? I'm really enjoying this read and everyone's comments (forgive typos and spelling am on my phone)

SarahHannah wrote: "During the murder I was struck by references to 'flesh'. It was telling when Camille gouged Laurent's neck ... you just know that the wound is going to torture him.

You're right, that was particulary gruesome - I can't imagine the staid Trollope writing in such a manner even if he was writing about a murder!

I tried to think about similar books as well - C & P of course springs to mind but I do like the earlier suggestion of The Tell-Tale Heart. If you haven't read it then I highly recommend it. It's a short story and will be freely available due to its age.