Political Philosophy and Ethics discussion
Introductions
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New Member Introductions
Hi Alan - happy to join the group. My academic background could be seen at - http://ronaldocarneiro.wordpress.com - or - http://rcarneiro4.blogspot.com.br - Let me start discussion with my academic text: Ideas that worked along the time. Please, see below:“Learn all theories and dominate all techniques, but when touching a human soul be just another human soul”. Carl Gustav Jung.
With this thought by a man who saw so clearly through the window of the human soul – I start this message for the renewal of hope at the beginning of new year, addressing it to friends and acquaintances who are responsible leaders and scholars.
"Rotary will continue to be charitable, but it can do more than that. Let us make Rotary exterminate the cause that makes charity necessary". This pearl of thinking by our founder Paul Harris was published in "The Rotarian" magazine of August 1916.
This time I looked for help, in references from world leaders and thinkers, to profit from their rich experiences, so as to enrich this text of reflections at the beginning of the New Year. It is always useful to remember the sensible message of:
Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274): “Beware of the person of one book”.
"Copy from one, it's plagiarism; copy from two, it's research." - Wilson Mizner (1876-1933)
“The most valuable of all talents is never using two words when one will do.” - Thomas Jefferson
"Great scholars are skeptics" - Friedrich Nietzsche
“Fanaticism is the only form or willpower available to the weak” - Friedrich Nietzsche
”Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings”. John F. Kennedy
Since a young age I was fascinated by the market economy – a system where the producer, isolated, does not take part in the evaluation of his product – it is the forces of supply and demand that will determine the value-price. This ethics, which exists also in the law of cause and effect for human activity, is self-applicable
“Smith did make one claim that, in his day, was the most important claim that he made. It laid the foundation of modern economic theory. He claimed that the free market system is autonomous. It would exist apart from legislation by the state. He called this "the system of natural liberty." He described how the free market would work if the state did not intervene to pass special-interest legislation that benefited one group or another. What Rousseau claimed for the General Will, Smith claimed for the free market. But Rousseau's General Will needed a representative institution to express itself. Smith's theory of the free market was its own interpreter. Gary North
So, the market economy is something magical, that must be pursued in an obstinate way – it was devalued, however, by a system that does not offer equal opportunities for all.
Let us see how we can rescue it.
We can find in Thomas Aquinas – XIII century – the seeds of the free market. One of the main representatives of scholastics (medieval philosophical line with a Christian foundation), he founded the thomist school of philosophy and theology, which thrived at the university of Salamanca in the XVI century.
“The value of an article, does not depend on its essential nature but on the estimation of men, even if that estimation is foolish.” - Variarum (1554) - Diego de Covarrubias y Leiva (1512-1577) - bishop of Segovia
In the XVII century William Petty (1623-1687), the father of classical economic analysis, wrote two essays that revolutionized economic thought in his time: a “Treaty on Taxes and Contributions”, in 1662 and “Political Arithmetics”, in 1690.
All of this orchestra of contributions was beautifully condensed in the works of Adam Smith, who marked the conscience, the soul and the heart of his generation and subsequent ones. The ethics contained in the entrails of the free market is the real reason that drives me to passionately defend the free market economy.
"Since time immemorial two political systems have confronted one another and both have good arguments to support them” “According to one, the state has to do a great deal, but it also has to take a great deal. According to the other, its twin action should be little felt. A choice has to be made between these two systems.” - nineteenth-century economist, Frédéric Bastiat
“The issue is always the same: the government or the market. There is no third solution” – “Economics deals with real man, weak and subject to error as he is, not with ideal beings omniscient and perfect as only gods could be”. Von Mises
“Neoliberalism appears to be little more than a justification for plutocracy” “What they call “the market” looks more like the interests of corporations and the ultra-rich”. “It strikes me that the entire structure of neoliberal thought is a fraud. The demands of the ultra-rich have been dressed up as sophisticated economic theory and applied regardless of the outcome. The complete failure of this world-scale experiment is no impediment to its repetition. This has nothing to do with economics. It has everything to do with power”. George Monbiot
”Socialism and middle-way economic interventionism by the state produce poverty and bureaucracy. If your goal is to keep poor people poor, generation after generation, you should promote socialism. But be sure to call it economic democracy in order to fool the voters”. Gary North
“The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization”. Mikhail Gorbachov
"We must understand that capitalism was created to deal with money, not with human beings". Maxwell Vitor
“Capitalism is a banquet in which only the bones are left for the poor”. Pierre de souza
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the belief in ignorance and the preaching of envy. Its inherent flaw is the egalitarian distribution of misery". Winston Churchill
“Rich peasants have a strong propension to capitalism”. Mao Tse-Tung
"The market does not have a conscience or mercy". Octavio Paz, mexican poet Nobel Prize in literature, 1990
“The market came with the dawn of civilization and it is not an invention of capitalism. If it leads to improving the well-being of the people there is no contradiction with socialism. Mikhail Gorbachov
“We are evolving to socialism, a system which, as they say, only works in Heaven, where it is not needed, and in Hell, where it already exists”. Ronald Reagan
”All hope abandon, ye who enter here”!(at Hell´s door) Lasciate ogni speranza voi che entrate! Dante Alighieri (1265-1321)
“The disadvantage of capitalism is the unequal distribution of riches; the advantage of socialism is the equal distribution of miseries”. Winston Churchill
"There is no greatness where there is no simplicity, goodness and truth"– Leon Tolstoi.
“For a world in which we are socially equal, humanly different and totally free”. Rosa Luxemburgo
”Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration”. Abraham Lincoln
This truth must be rescued by all the zombies who are wandering, lost and disconnected from the basic concepts of economy.
"Everything the Communists told us about communism was a complete and utter lie. Unfortunately, everything the Communists told us about capitalism turned out to be true”. - World Bank staffer John Nellis
Capitalism and socialism were bitter medicines in the history of mankind, and they are no longer valid, nowadays
“Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man. Socialism is the opposite of it”. Millôr Fernandes
Government is an institution that invariably spends more than it collects, either because of the high social demand in societies with concentrated income, or because of a perverse desire to feed the military might in rich societies.
Government is an institution economically impractical, because its revenues and expenditures shall be determined by acts of human will. Economics is a science whose techniques are valid and applicable when the will of economic agents is limited by the natural law of supply and demand
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." - Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953
The real need for government intervention is in the fact that 3 sectors: agriculture, health and education cannot walk alone – The government needs to pump resources into these 3 sectors – something necessary, even if inefficient. Under the current rules, the reduction of government intervention in the economy would considerably increase the distance between poor and rich.
The complexity of modern societies cannot be managed by central planners. The so-called democratic centralism is pure sophistry, that appeals only to autocratic rulers.
Whatever the concept that one may have of democracy, the fate of citizens cannot depend on the virtue of their rulers.
Dictatorships or strong regimes are defended only by those who would like to be lashing the whip; whenever placed on the other side, they will stand for democracy emphatically.
"The State is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everyone else." Frederic Bastiat (1801-1850)
"The problem has been developing for many years: a sort of economic alcoholism in which society has depended upon government to solve all its problems. Governments have promised to do away with unemployment, to eradicate poverty, to mitigate the pain of old age and sickness, even to ease the consequences of banking and business mistakes. Such irresistible promises! It was exactly what everyone wanted. We became economic alcoholics, dependent on government, and have had no concept of who will pay the price for this happy addiction." Von Mises - (from a speech at Athens College in 1984)
“There is only one kind of freedom and that's individual liberty. Our lives come from our creator and our liberty comes from our creator. It has nothing to do with government granting it”. Ron Paul
“Don't forget what I discovered that over ninety percent of all national deficits from 1921 to 1939 were caused by payments for past, present, and future wars”. Franklin D. Roosevelt
“People do not make wars; governments do”. Ronald Reagan
“Government always finds a need for whatever money it gets”. Ronald Reagan
“No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!” Ronald Reagan
“Of all the enemies of public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies. From these proceed debts and taxes. And armies, debts and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the dominion of the few.... No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare”. James Madison, the principal architect of the U.S. Constitution - 1795
“We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can’t have both.” – Louis Brandeis - U.S. Supreme Court Justice (1856-1941)
"Democracy does not guarantee equality of conditions - it only guarantees equality of opportunity." - Irving Kristol
“We should measure welfare's success by how many people leave welfare, not by how many are added”.
Ronald Reagan
“My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government”. Thomas Jefferson
“Government could not help us to solve problems, government is a problem”. Ronald Reagan
“Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it”. - Ronald Reagan“Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of man will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint”. Alexander Hamilton
“The invisible hand of the market always moves faster and better than the heavy hand of government”. Mitt Romney
“Deficits mean future tax increases, pure and simple. Deficit spending should be viewed as a tax on future generations, and politicians who create deficits should be exposed as tax hikers”. Ron Paul
“Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other”. Ronald Reagan
“It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach”.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
“In the general course of human nature, A power over a man's subsistence amounts to a power over his will”. Alexander Hamilton
"There are people in the world so hungry, that God cannot appear to them except in the form of bread." - Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948)
“It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first”. Ronald Reagan
“Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation”. Henry A. Kissinger
The market competition that we are witnessing today is like an athletic race: some citizens, well fed and accessing health and education systems are far ahead; most of the others are left unjustly behind: the fair and decent minimum that can be done is to put them all on the same line of departure, giving equal opportunities at the beginning.
Workers need to eat and to have access to health and education systems, so that their labor does not get destroyed – it does not make sense to embed this in their salary, because the hunger of people is not a market variable, but a biological need
“Excessive inequality is corrosive to growth; it is corrosive to society. I believe that the economics profession and the policy community have downplayed inequality for too long.” Christine Lagarde, International Monetary Fund managing director
"Criminality, for example, can be reduced basically in two ways: with preventive investment in education or with the reinforcement of police surveillance on the streets. I estimate that the option for education costs about a tenth of the expenses with security."
"Each dollar spent on the education of a person means that they will produce something like 10 cents more per year along their whole life. There is no better investment." - James Heckman, Nobel Prize winner in Economy in the year 2000
“A State divided into a small number of rich and a large number of poor will always develop a government manipulated by the rich to protect the amenities represented by their property.” – Harold Laski - British political theorist (1893-1950)
“There is nothing wrong with describing Conservatism as protecting the Constitution, protecting all things that limit government. Government is the enemy of liberty. Government should be very restrained”. Ron Paul
"When you notice that, in order to produce, you must be authorized by someone who produces nothing; when you confirm that money flows to those who negotiate with favor, not with goods; when you notice that many get rich with bribery and influence, more than with work, and that the laws do not protect us from them, but, on the contrary, it is them who are protected from us; when you find that corruption is rewarded and that honesty becomes self-sacrifice; then you can say, with no fear of error, that your society is doomed." Alissa Rosenbaum (Ayn Rand) - 1905-1982
“It would be naive to think that the problems plaguing mankind today can be solved with means and methods which were applied or seemed to work in the past”. Mikhail Gorbachov
“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.” Adrian Rogers, 1931
Job-generation is not a task for the State, which produces only lesser jobs. It is private initiative that creates productive employment.
"We will practice charity when we could not impose justice". Because it is not charity that we need. Justice reaches the causes of the problem; charity mitigates its effects” Victor Hugo
With Smith I learned the importance of the "invisible hand", that today is called market – individuals acting on their own interests – and it is always the individual interest that prevails – without governmental interference – as a superior model for human coexistence.
I have learned from Marx that the workforce must not suffer wear – "The worker sells his labor to keep it unscathed, except for the natural wear, but not to have it destroyed."
I Learned with Joan Robinson that the market economy makes what is profitable and not what is needed
I Learned with Mises and Hayek that nothing beats the power of the spontaneous organization of the market price mechanisms.
“The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were”. John F. Kennedy
A man may die, nations may rise and fall, but an idea lives on. John F. Kennedy
“The best road to progress is freedom's road”. - John F. Kennedy
But in a new social pact where nutrition, health and education became private responsibilities in the productive process, the Government would proportionately reduce taxation and its interference in the economy. Instead of transferring resources from rich to poor, society would provide equal opportunities for nutrition, health and education. This is not philanthropy, but a new concept of human labor as a transformation process of human energy into physical or intellectual power. It will replace the changing logic of ideas – ideology – with the invariable logic of life - biology
The complete liberation of prices and salaries will result, inexorably, in full productive employment. Only with full employment we will do without State supervision – the invisible hand acts inexorably!!! Certainly, businessmen will not act philanthropically only: full productive employment will be the guarantor of this agreement of wills – the dynamics of the economy will lead to full employment, where government supervision will no longer be required
“The happiness of society is the end of government”. John Adams
The comments below are from the experienced, realist and competent american thinker Gary North, who also believes that Keynesianism keeps dominating the political scene by default, for lack of an alternative.
“Without hope of deliverance, the voters lose confidence in politics as a means of healing. This is the central religion of our era. This trust is waning. The Keynesian system holds on power by default. There is no widely shared faith in what can be substituted and how”.
“Austrians have simple solutions: "Let the free market alone." "Less government is better." "Lower taxes increase liberty." "Trust gold, not bankers." These were basic themes in the late 18th century. They were basic themes of classical liberalism in the 19th century. They are not untried concepts. They made the West rich when they were honored”
“The only way we can make it better is to reduce the power and privilege of the groups, and this means passing laws against existing laws. This means replacing centralized planning, in its various forms, with the planning imposed by the free market”
“There is no simple solution to this, other than to persuade people that when a crisis occurs, the proper response is to shrink the government, not expand it. People generally do not want to hear this in a crisis. But if the crisis is based on the fact that the government has run out of sound money, they are going to have to listen to it”.
“The tools of victory which previous leaders have invoked to solve the problem, namely, a strengthening of the central government, an increase of taxation, and a forced lowering of interest rates, are exactly the policies that got us into the problem we are in. So, the proposed reforms are simply more of the same”.
So far - Gary North
"All truths go through three stages. First they are ridiculed. Secondly, they face violent opposition. Finally, they are accepted as evident" - Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), - german philosopher
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
"the purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists." Joan Robinson
“Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do” – Goethe
Force is the weapon of the incompetent, whereas intelligence is the instrument of the sensible. Force will never transform anything that intelligence cannot transform.
“The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis”.
Dante Alighieri (1265-1321)
I would feel glad if these thoughts lead readers at least to the diagnosis of the trouble we are in – recognizing mistakes is a decisive step to search for solutions.
1. the free market, though highly desirable, is impossible to be practiced without a new social pact
2. Offering equal opportunities for nutrition, health care and education is a “sine qua non” condition to make possible the market economy – these goods and services are attached to survival and progress, do not depend on human will, are non- cumulative and are interdependent.
3. There is no conflict between the market economy and equal opportunities – on the contrary, it is only with equal opportunities that the free market can operate completely
“Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience normally recognize the voice of justice as well”. Alexander Solzhenitsyn
"The fundamental cause of trouble in the world is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
"Sometimes it is not enough that we do our best; we must do what is required." - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
“I’m a lover of my own liberty, and so I would do nothing to restrict yours.” Mahatma Gandhi - (1869-1948)
“The only tyrant I accept in this world is the 'still small voice' within me. And even though I have to face the prospect of being a minority of one, I humbly believe I have the courage to be in such a hopeless minority.” - Mahatma Gandhi - (1869-1948)
Mod
One of your quotations reminded me of what a former boss used to say during the 1970s: "In capitalism, it's dog eat dog. In communism, it's just the reverse."
Your discussions should be included in the Government and the Economy; Property Rights topic in this group, and I am accordingly cross-referencing them there. You might find the previous posts in that topic of interest. I encourage any further responses to Ronaldo's statements to be posted in that topic.
Thanks Alan - happy to contact such a different varieties of political views, but most important is to keep in contact with people linked and focus on theme. Kind regards
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Mod
Biff welcome to the group. Tell me your vision about what can be change in capitalism in order to work better.
Allan, Thank you for creating this group. I look forward to the conversations. I am fine arts educator in Texas, currently in my third year. I practice the art of music and strive for perfection daily.
In light of our tumultuous political climate and the dilemma each of the parties continue to face attracting minorities I began searching for answers. I am African American, served in the Marine Corps, and feel that I am most patriotic even with the most dark times in American history, slavery, directly playing a negative role within my family ranks.
I recently read The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, and immediately felt enlightened after he makes an interesting claim.
“ These libraries have improved the general conversation of the Americans, made the common tradesmen and farmers as intelligent as most gentlemen from other countries, and perhaps have contributed in some degree to the stand so generally made throughout the colonies in defense of their privileges.” -Benjamin Franklin
I felt as if the many incidents plaguing our society such as, ethnic diversity, extreme partisanship, and religion could be remedied or evaluated by reading. I also realized I had not invested enough time in reading myself about the background and foundations of our western society.
As I went to vote I realized I had choices placed in front of me and began to ask the question was this democracy or the illusion of democracy?
In this world of ours in other lands, there are some people, who, in times past, have lived and fought for freedom, and seem to have grown too weary to carry on the fight. They have sold their heritage of freedom for the illusion of a living. They have yielded their democracy. - Roosevelt
I wondered in our distracted and hurried lives was I living in the sheer illusion of democracy or had I not utilized the political system in the manner it was designed? Was I holding my congressional leaders accountable? Was I informed about the legislation on the table? Had I made a decisions based on researched information or had I relied on the news media outlets to provide me with the facts. Unfortunately, I was a bit disturbed as I had not been a good citizen nor a good “woman” as explored by Aristotle. I failed to educate myself and in that I believe I have in a since failed my fellow citizens.
In light of Jonathan Grubers statements I also realized the system exploits the peoples ignorance. I understood that most of all, that we allow this to happen. My goal is search for knowledge.
I look forward to sharing with all members of the group.
Mod
Great, I look forward to this journey. I am also exploring a political science class through Yale Open Courseware. One of the lecturers Alan Cowles, said after studying this topic one would never be the same. I already find I am enjoy hearing all perspectives. Enjoy your day.
Hi Alan, I am very pleased to join the group. I live in the UK and academically, I am a bit of a misfit as my degree is in mathematics and my career was spent as an Accountant and IT Manager. However, retirement has allowed me to devote time to two very different passions. The first is a study of the poet Wordsworth, and the second - relevant to this group - is an interest in Ancient Greek politics and in particularly Thucydides. To round things off I also have an interest in Seneca the Younger, the optimistic moral tutor of Nero.I look forward to participating in discussions.
Mod
Yes, indeed, Seneca must have been "optimistic" regarding his pupil Nero!
Alan
Hi Rodney - welcome aboard to retired people group interested in Political Philosophy and Ethics discussion. After 3 decades working to brazilian central government nowadays working as grandfather of 3 excelent kids. My academic focus is capitalism and socialism and trying to a critical views of both systems, proposing a new and fresh development idea based on nutrition, health and education in a free market - less government more freedom. Alan is an excellent moderator and patient enough to listen my utopian argues. Success and welcome. Ron Carneiro
Hello, name is Alton. I just joined this group. I'm a John Locke guy who likes Ayn Rand who is currently plodding through Murray Rothbard. I've been doing a lot of reading lately. I just realized that reading can actually be fun (prior to this realization, my reading level sucked. After a little practice, I had my epiphany). The reading I've been doing is leading me to consider the idea of writing a book. I'm lying, I'm not considering it, I'm actively pursuing it. I have this fear of "jinxing" stuff before such things come into existence, so in respect of my superstition, I will work very hard to be both evasive and vague when describing the nature of my reading and, eventually, my writing. Of course, my ego will probably get in the way and I'll spill the beans... but I digress.Back in the day, I was a slam poet. I was good at it. I lived waaaaaaaaay out on eastern Long Island but my ego could not allow being relegated to reading on Long Island so I went to NYC. It was great. Sadly, I was too socially awkward to leverage my slam poetry skills into getting girls. Nonetheless, I did pretty good for myself in the realm of crafting poetry that others appreciated enough to give unsolicited complements and praise. I even messed around and wrote two "chap books" which I'd like to convert into an an "adults only" children's styled picture book. I had to drop the poetry thing because I caught a nasty case of writer's block from which I never recovered. That was almost twenty years ago.
Right now I'm reading "Common Sense". The last book I finished was "Reckless Endangerment", that book on the housing crash. I want to get Walliston's book, "Hidden in Plain Sight" which also treats the housing crash. I got into Rothbard after reading Friedman's text on monetary policy in the aftermath of the stock market crash. That text is an eye opener but I still don't understand why Friedman continued to believe enacting monetary policy was a good idea.
At any rate, I have a fixation on Soul Food and I think that its probably a good idea to stop writing because, as you've seen, I have a bad habit of not restraining my meandering thoughts.
Mod
Welcome to the group, Alton. I was myself influenced by Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, and other libertarians during the closing decades of the twentieth century. However, after further study and observation of events, I now believe that their theoretical constructs bear little relation to reality. For alternative views, I encourage you to read the posts in the following threads of this group: Classical Liberalism; Libertarianism and Anarchocapitalism; Objectivism and Government and the Economy; Property Rights. With regard to the 2008 stock market crash and ensuing Great Recession, see especially All the Devils Are Here: The Hidden History of the Financial Crisis by Bethany McLean and Joe Nocera. This is the best of several books that I have read on the subject.
Members of this group have all kinds of different perspectives about the proper role of government in the economy. There are quite a few libertarians like you. On the other side, we have group members who are progressives and even socialists. Additionally, we have the occasional anarchist, whether of the right or left. Although I consider myself a rational (as distinguished from knee-jerk) progressive, my main interest during the last few years has been in the areas of separation of church and state and liberty of conscience. I have written more than 400 pages of a book on Roger Williams, and that book will be published sometime within the next few months. For additional information regarding the latter, see the following topics in this group: Roger Williams (ca. 1603-1683) and Seventeenth-Century Rhode Island Government; Separation of Church and State; Liberty of Conscience and Toleration; and Types of Government: Theocracy and Erastianism.
Alan wrote: "Alton wrote: "Hello, name is Alton. I just joined this group. I'm a John Locke guy who likes Ayn Rand who is currently plodding through Murray Rothbard. I've been doing a lot of reading lately. ..."KOOL! I appreciate ya' Alan! Especially for linking the article on "Anarcho-Capitalism and Classical Liberalism". I'm gonna check it out!
Yo! When you said the theoretical constructs of Rand and Rothbard bear little alignment with reality, I was like "Whoa!" I admit to having locked myself into that idea but I'm learning to be open minded and read stuff beyond that which feeds my confirmation bias. At any rate, I'm going to "peep" that article.
Mod
I am nearing 70 years old, and I'm still learning (and, consequently, changing my mind about things). Rand, Rothbard, and the other libertarians/Objectivists are very attractive from an intellectual perspective. But I determined during the 2000s (starting before, but certainly after, the 2008 crash) that my previous libertarian mindset was deficient. Life is more complicated than that. Although I am not an expert in economics and although I still believe in a basically capitalistic framework, I now think there is a significant and indispensable role for proper governmental regulation. The deregulation of the economy that started with Reagan and has continued to our time has evidently resulted in significantly deleterious effects, including an income inequality not seen since before the 1929 Great Depression. Rothbard was probably right that the Federal Reserve's deliberate policy of monetary inflation during the 1920s helped cause the Great Depression. But that happened under Republican administrations and Congresses that wanted to create a boom economy by artificially stimulating the economy during good times. Keynes himself would have rejected that recipe for disaster.
Check it out: you referenced the 2008 crash. I am of the opinion that that crash was the result of the federal government involving itself in the housing market (that ability was created as a result of FDR's New Deal legislation which was the creation of the Federal Housing Administration). Fannie, Freddie, and HUD were using money to promote an expansion of the Sub prime market as well as an increase in the issuance of "alternative mortgage products". There was a law passed in 1992 (The Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act of 1992) which mandated the Government Sponsored Entities created under FHA to increase home ownership. Certainly there was a subprime market prior to 1992 but this law resulted in a subsidizing of the purchase of loans from this sector and, in from what I've read, this subsidizing increased the size of said market. Additionally, all this was fueled by the low interest rates of the Fed. The sub primes and the "alternative mortgage products" were bundled together as investment opportunities (mortgage backed securities) and sold to the financial sector. From what I have read, it seems that the crash of 2008 was precipitated (caused) by the federal government's involvement in the housing market. I still need to do more reading on this. Let me add that the proponents of the "derivatives as cause argument" as well as those who argue that the repeal of Glass Stegall seem to overlook this. Greenspan, a person partial to Ayn Rand, argued that the crash changed his ideas on libertarian economics, somewhat. I believe his comments to overlook the role of the federal government, via the Federal Reserve, in fueling the rampant speculation in the housing market. That's just me.
If I were to summarize my previous commentary, I'd say the following: the federal government is responsible for the 2008 economic crash and not private endeavor. Paradoxically, individual greed restrained the market from engaging in unwise behaviours. The federal government's involvement in the market encouraged unwise behaviours which lead to the crash.
Mod
Question: did Wall Street respond to something created by the federal government (intervention into the market via the Federal Reserve and Fannie, Freddie, and HUD) or did Wall Street act on its own? And was the repeal of Glass Stegall a law that gave no consideration to federal intervention into the market? This is a question that sits in my mind.
Mod
I need to get back to writing my book on Roger Williams. It may be that other group members might be interested in weighing in on these issues, though perhaps any continuation of these issues should be taken up in the Classical Liberalism; Libertarianism and Anarchocapitalism; Objectivism or Government and the Economy; Property Rights topics of this group.
That's Kool And the Gang! Thanks for the exchange!
Mod
Alan - could you explain better What you mean as rational progressive? And your delusion with libertarianism
Mod
By "rational progressive," I mean I am a progressive (or "liberal" in American but not European usage) who attempts to take a rational—as distinguished from emotional—approach to political issues. Thus, I do not agree with the typical progressive positions on all issues, and I sometimes agree with a rational critique of some of the standard progressive positions (or have my own independent rational critique of such positions). However, with the turn, during the last two or three decades, of the American Right toward ever-more extremist views, I rarely agree with them on anything—or at least on the way they express themselves on those issues. In any event, I was never a "conservative" in American terms: although I used to be a kind of libertarian, I always advocated complete separation of church and state and full liberty of conscience. That was totally consistent with the libertarian position of the 1970s and 1980s. Somewhere along the line, libertarianism morphed into the American "tea party," and religion got mixed into the libertarian soup. Ayn Rand, Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich von Hayek, and Murray Rothbard must be rolling over in their graves at this appropriation of libertarianism to serve theocratic ends.
In other words, I can't stand the shouting matches, verbal interruptions, smear campaigns, and other irrationalities of either Fox News (conservative) or the evening lineup on MSNBC (progressive). As you live in another country, you may or may not have access to these TV programs. If not, you are not missing anything. With Lincoln, my credo is as follows: "Passion has helped us; but can do so no more. It will in future be our enemy. Reason, cold, calculating, unimpassioned reason, must furnish all the materials for our future support and defence." Abraham Lincoln, "The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions," Address to the Young Men's Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois, January 27, 1838, in Abraham Lincoln: Speeches and Writings, 1832-1858, ed. Don E. Fehrenbacher (New York: Library of America, 1989), 36.
As for my disillusionment with libertarianism, see my posts (including my links to the writings of myself and others) in the following topics of this group: Classical Liberalism; Libertarianism and Anarchocapitalism; Objectivism and Government and the Economy; Property Rights. As indicated above, my current preoccupation with completing my book project on Roger Williams prevents me from elaborating further at this time.
Hi Alan and everyone, I’m very glad to have joined this group. Allow me, too, to introduce myself. I have been a High School teacher of History and Italian almost all my working life (here in Italy, where I still live). Now that I have retired, I can finally spend more time doing what I love most: studying and writing. In the early 70s I studied political science for two years at the Sapienza University of Rome. Eventually I attended the Ca' Foscari University of Venice, where I graduated with a doctor's degree in philosophy in 1975. I also studied English at San Francisco State University in 1980. My study and research interests lie in the following areas: Philosophy (mostly Political philosophy), Religions, Catholic and Christian theology, History (mostly Medieval history). I blog at www.windrosehotel.com and my website is at www.srpiccoli.eu. I’m the author of three books:
- Being Conservative from A to Z
- Blessed Are the Contrarians
- Breviario del giovane politico (in Italian)
I live in the Venice area with my wife and my daughter. I am looking forward to participating in this group and to contributing to discussions.
Mod
Welcome to the group! Please feel free to contribute to any future or even a past discussion. The members of this group have various political ideologies from all over the spectrum. I myself will not be participating very much during the next few weeks as I am currently finishing my own book project.
Thank you for welcoming me onboard! Keep up the good work with your book!
Welcome aboard S.R.- your experience will enrich our discussion. Let me state my basic beliefs:"We will practice charity when we could not impose justice". Because it is not charity that we need. Justice reaches the causes of the problem; charity mitigates its effects” Victor Hugo
With Adam Smith I learned the importance of the "invisible hand", that today is called market – individuals acting on their own interests – and it is always the individual interest that prevails – without governmental interference – as a superior model for human coexistence.
I have learned from Marx that the workforce must not suffer wear – "The worker sells his labor to keep it unscathed, except for the natural wear, but not to have it destroyed."
I Learned with Joan Robinson that the market economy makes what is profitable and not what is needed
I Learned with Mises and Hayek that nothing beats the power of the spontaneous organization of the market price mechanisms.
Kind regards. Ron Carneiro
Thank you, Ronaldo. We all have so much to learn from the great thinkers that came before us.All the best
S.R. Piccoli
Hello all....forty years removed from a BA in History, I have have spent as much time as I could in between multiple careers and family keeping my reading jones going. The last several years in high gear, (many thanks to Goodreads), focused on filling the yawning gap in my secondary and college experience, meaning our Greek and Roman forefathers. I have especially come to a serious study of the idea of liberty and how it developed. I won't go into the authors and books just yet as I am mainly interested in this group's insights , experiences and suggestions. Alan, many thanks for starting and moderating the group , its great!
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Thanks, Charles. Age along with time for study are indeed, valuable. In many ways, life began for me when I retired from gainful employment, though my decades of working for a living were a learning experience in itself and sometimes enjoyable. Every stage of life has its advantages and disadvantages.
Hello, I’m Jessica. I live in Pennsylvania, United States. For the most part I enjoy exploring reality based reading i.e. philosophy, political science, psychology and other pieces from different reaches of the world out of interest in sociology and history. This is some of why I decided to start tracking my reads and finding likeminded people and groups to join on Goodreads. I possess a Bachelor’s degree in American Studies from Queens University of Charlotte, North Carolina (USA). By day, I am a professional consultant in Project Management. Your group Political Philosophy and Ethics has appealed to some of these interests; however, the question one contemplates regarding political and philosophical ethics in an open forum is new to me beyond open discussion in scholastic lecture. So like some of the members here, I am interested in this group’s perception, understanding and recommendations. Thank you for starting this group.
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I've read all I'm going to read as research for my present book, and I have now, for "light reading," begun Sam Harris's The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values. It is quite interesting to me that Harris agrees (tacitly, not explicitly) with Leo Strauss that the fact-value distinction of modern times (actually going back to at least Descartes, who employed it to avoid persecution by the Church) is incorrect. Harris admits his debt to Aristotle on this issue, but he then says he won't discuss Aristotle because the great philosopher was wrong on some points. OK, then, but Harris does not consider the necessity for Aristotle to accommodate the prejudices of his own time in order to avoid the fate of Socrates. Plus, of course, Aristotle was, indeed, wrong on some points, but his work was not bad for someone who is often considered to be the founder of modern science.
You have an interesting background, and I encourage you (and the other group members) to contribute to discussions in this group. All points of view (except, of course, those advocating violence) are welcome as long as they are generally relevant to the topics of political or ethical philosophy. And I define "generally relevant" broadly to include most philosophical and historical topics.
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My wife and I recently attended a talk by Neil deGrasse Tyson, who said that an alien visiting Earth would be astonished that we had such antiquated and harmful energy sources.
Randal, I am pleased that you are not afraid of identifying yourself as a socialist. Let's see, I think that now makes two people in America: you and Bernie Sanders! Perhaps one of you will become president some day.
Thank you for your interesting contribution. I hope you don't mind my identifying the undergraduate university you attended: Stanford.
Randal is the left-wing star of this group (there may be a few others who are not as vocal), and I rely on his economic expertise (of which I am woefully deficient). Some day I will reread Marx and Adam Smith and read all the important twenty-first-century economists (I have read some of the twentieth-century libertarian economists, who did not, ultimately, convince me). However, I'm finding that I'm running out of time, given my age, to read everything I want to read. So I might delegate the entire field of economics to Randal. There should be sufficient fodder for debate here, since many group members are economic libertarians.
Without knowing each other, Randal and I had many similar intellectual and academic experiences. I also applied to the Graduate Faculty of the New School in philosophy. I was accepted twice but decided not to pursue an academic career for the reason Randal mentioned as well as some others (better left unsaid). Instead, I became a lawyer. After decades of working for "the Man," I am finally retired from law practice and have become a full-time independent scholar. It doesn't pay anything, at least so far, but it's much more intellectually rewarding than anything else I have done to date.
Alan
This is going to be fun....energy economics and resource allocations on a political philosophy group. My college years were dominated by disaster/environmental apocalyptic warnings a la Dr Paul Erhlich. I think I spent junior year in college worrying about the human scramble for existence. It did not take many years in the working world to realize quite the opposite. The I met Herman Kahn, Bucky Fuller and Julian Simon and I realized that Dr Ehrlich was way, way off base. I read "Peak Oil" some time ago, a geological explanation for the end of the hydrocarbon world. Alas, within a couple of years peak oil was laid to rest by the oversupply of energy in general and petroleum specifically. What Herman and Julian said 25-30 years ago came true. Whatever the attractions and benefits of the non-hydrocarbon world, global economic growth and poverty alleviation will be driven by a hydrocarbon engine. Making it cleaner and ,ore efficient is a laudable and necessary goal, wishing it away a fantasy not consistent with rationale economic thinking.
Charles wrote: "This is going to be fun....energy economics and resource allocations on a political philosophy group. My college years were dominated by disaster/environmental apocalyptic warnings a la Dr Paul Erh..."I took classes from Dr. Paul. He was very good with butterflies. I don't doubt that "global economic growth and poverty alleviation will be driven by a hydrocarbon engine." My concern is that it is the sulfide reducing bacteria who will be the ones to enjoy it.
Cheers,
Randal
Grandfathers have a special responsibility and concern for the future. We also have the benefit of the long view, at least longer than most. An alien looking at our global culture of the past few hundred years might be appalled at the technological ability we bring to killing our fellow Homo sapiens. On the other hand , they, like Steven Pinker , might comment on how much we have progressed as a species. Like Dr Simon and Mr Kahn, I am a humanistic optimist, with a profound belief in our ability to adapt and change when our survival is at risk.
Charles wrote: "Like Dr Simon and Mr Kahn, I am a humanistic optimist, with a profound belief in our ability to adapt and change when our survival is at risk. ..."Charles,
As someone who admires the man who apparently thought that he should receive royalties from Dr. Strangelove I would be very interested to see your reactions to contemporary books on Mr. Kahn’s life and era, for example, Ghamari-Tabrizi‘s book, The Worlds of Herman Kahn and The Wizards of Armageddon by Fred Kaplan.
Perhaps you could start a new thread on Kahn's life and work. I notice in the list of Kahn’s “One Hundred Technical Innovations Very Likely in the Last Third of the Twentieth Century” that there are some very accurate predictions like “Commercial extraction of oil from shale” and some spectacular failures: “Some control of weather and/or climate.” As a sewage treatment engineer, I am struck that (at least some of) the failures have the characteristic that they have ignored the waste products from the technological innovations that Kahn envisioned (many of which have now come to pass). Kahn was not thinking that by our time we would still have no idea how to deal with the wastes from nuclear reactors or that the carbon dioxide from our fossil fuel economy would result in flooding our coastlines and pickling our oceans. The invisible hand works as long as the invisible commons is available into which the technical innovator's industry can dump its wastes. When those commons become polluted, however, the invisible hand becomes what Joan Robinson called “the invisible foot.”
One of the quotes from Louis Menand’s review in the New Yorker of the Ghamari-Tabrizi book about Kahn that strikes me is, “Questioning military policy was his business; questioning the policies that military policy is designed to protect and enable was not.” As a student in a political science department in the days of On Thermonuclear War it struck me then that two words that were almost completely absent from the indices of the American Political Science Review were the words “justice” and “power”, words that are nonetheless very pertinent to Alan’s political philosophy discussion group. Perhaps these should also be new threads. On justice we could discuss Rawls, Sandel, Sen, compared to the classics: Plato, Aristotle, Kant and, I would suggest, Marx. On power, my favorites would be Polybius, Machiavelli, and Thomas Hobbes.
I share your hope that we will be able to come up with solutions to our pressing problems of implementing sustainable sources of energy and control of the human instinct for war. I am of the opinion that these solutions will have more to do with our coming to terms with the political problems of justice and power than with technological solutions that are, actually, quite easily imaginable (solar roads?) Why didn’t we implement solar home and water heating in the twenties in Los Angeles? I have an ex-grandfather in-law who started a solar water company that subsequently became one of the world’s leading manufacturers of natural gas versions of the same. Why were the tracks in LA for public transit pulled up during the same period? Was this “rational economic thinking” or exercise of power by oil and gas elites? Perhaps both? If so, what does that say about “rational economic thinking”?
Regards,
Randal
Mod
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Please feel free to create new topics, as appropriate. I don't have any problem with general topics like "justice" and "power." However, particular issues that would otherwise fall within an existing topic should probably be placed there. For example, posts that address the views of various philosophers on "justice" or "power" could well be placed in a thematic topic, but a post that is focused only on a particular philosopher's view of something might better be placed under that philosopher, unless it is part of an ongoing discussion in a thematic topic. But I'm flexible—do what you think best as long as it is relevant, in some way, to political or ethical philosophy.
After I finish writing and publishing my current book (which should be by early June), I might have more to say on such issues. For now, I only note the following matters from my personal experience:
• I purchased a Toyota Prius (hybrid) as my sole automobile in December of 2004, and it remains my sole automobile today. For many years (before my retirement) I used it for commuting between my suburban community and downtown Pittsburgh (my job description during most of my employment years in Pittsburgh required that I have a car available downtown). I also used it for numerous business trips throughout Pennsylvania and Ohio. It has also been my primary means of transportation (other than air travel) for pleasure trips. As of today, my mileage is 68,187. It has required very little maintenance, and I may never trade it in (unless at some point for a totally electric car). It consistently gets 46 miles per gallon on the highway. The in-town mileage varies (depending on conditions) between 30 and 45 miles per gallon. And this is in hilly and curvy Pittsburgh, where mileage per gallon is not as good as in places that have no hills and where streets are organized in grids. (I remember those places fondly. As a coworker once responded to my driving complaints in Pittsburgh, "If you can see where you're going here, you can't get there.")
• Last autumn, at my wife's insistence, we installed solar panels on the roof of our house. Though not all the evidence is yet in (we will need an entire year of experience), our solar panels are designed to generate 110% of the electricity we consume, with the remainder going back to the grid. This is in the Pittsburgh area, where snow (especially this past winter) covers the solar panels during parts of the winter, making them effectively useless at those times (unless we want to shovel snow on our roof), and where sunny days are not all that normal in any part of the year. But we are on track toward meeting the objective of being entirely self-sufficient in electrical generation. Of course, there are laws requiring us to remain on the grid, and those laws may or may not be reasonable under all the circumstances.
Finally, I believe Richard Nixon was one of the first politicians who pushed the notion of shale oil. At the time, I had little idea what he was talking about. There are many, many horror stories about the effects of fracking on individual homeowners (or renters) and farmers. I don't have the time or inclination to get into this issue right now, but I'm sure there is a lot on the Internet about it.
Alan wrote: "Please feel free to create new topics, as appropriate. I don't have any problem with general topics like "justice" and "power." However, particular issues that would otherwise fall within an exis..."Alan,
Prior to your post here, I took the liberty of starting a thread "No Justice No Peace" as a trial balloon on the idea of approaching a contemporary question through the eyes of our political philosophy forbears. I totally defer to your judgment on the appropriateness of this here. Delete it if you think best.
As to the rest of your post, it suggests another possible topic, "The Relationship of Private to Public Virtue." How about that one?
Cheers,
Randal
Mod
Sounds good (both ideas). Run with it! I encourage posts to either topic or others. As previously mentioned, I probably won't be able to contribute much myself until perhaps sometime in June.
Mod
Unlike others in this group, I’m not well-schooled in philosophy, economics or politics, however I am interested in these topics and have done some reading about them. I'm a retired computer programmer with a B.A. in German Language and B.S. in Computer Science.
My relative lack of education in the above subjects doesn’t prevent me from having strong opinions, however! I often participate in a local opinion site where I do battle with and attempt to enlighten people who get their information from Rush Limbaugh and Fox "News". It's a thankless task. Forgive me if I'm brutally honest. I come by it honestly from experience on Voice of the Region.
I too am a humanist, however not an optimistic one, not after reading the simple-minded bloviations on Voice of the Region. Charles, when you believe we can adapt and change to global warming, I hope you don’t mean it in the sense of the David H. Koch Hall of Human Origins at the Smithsonian, which seeks to explain how humans could evolve to live in a warmer climate. (“Will we become taller?”) Incredible that the Smithsonian was so desperate for money they went along with that. Our bodies don't have time to adapt and change in the mere decades we have left. Evolution doesn't work that quickly on large organisms.
You also mentioned that economic development will be driven by carbon. I sincerely hope that, in the many underdeveloped regions of the world which have huge amounts of solar and wind energy, they will choose to emphasize the path of renewables rather than fossil fuels. Renewable energy is quite feasible right now in these areas. Saudi Arabia of all places already has massive solar installations. If we dig up and burn all our fossil fuels, we are surely dooming Life as We Know It on this planet. Life will survive, to be sure, but it won't look pretty to us. Perhaps to cockroaches?
Now, I went through a brief "Peak Oil" phase myself, and it's clear the author was wrong. That doesn't mean that we can relax and forget about speeding the transition to renewable energy.
Alan mentioned above that we have solar panels on our roof. The technology for cleaner cars and cleaner power is here now. The only barrier to speeding the transition away from carbon-based fuel is the greed of the current owners of the means of fossil fuel production. They are determined to squeeze every bit of oil and gas out of the planet, Life as We Know It be damned. And they have deep pockets – deep enough even to influence the Smithsonian Museum.
My Name is Majid al-Asseri and am from Saudi Arabia..am a getting my Bachelor degree on Political Science in King Abdulaziz university.. Although we focus alot on regional politics and public policy and economy... rather then political philosophy and comparative politics and International relations..
I hope I could benefit all members in this group.. Although I doubt it since all of you are professional academic personality... but hey you never know..
I speak Fluent Arabic and English and studing French..
Mimi wrote: "Charles wrote: I am a humanistic optimist, with a profound belief in our ability to adapt and change when our survival is at risk.Unlike others in this group, I’m not well-schooled in philosophy..." thank you Mimi, rest assured i am not of the bloviating class that professes that business can do no wrong class.....quite the opposite . All I meant was that my confidence in the human race is not misplaced, that we, as a species have proven time after time our willingness to make the decisions necessary to continue our life on the planet. As one who lived through MAD, and thought it normal, with hindsight we see how close we came to total human annihilation. And yet we made it. Our short term (30-50) year life will be fueled as it has been the last 50 years. While I applaud and support the goal of total renewable and non- carbon based energy, I fear that we enclose ourselves in an endless loop of disappointment and ineffective solutions to achieving massive human development. It may be that the developing world is learning the lessons it took the west to learn in a fraction of the time. Of course those lessons are being driven by a growing population of relatively affluent people made possible by carbon based energy. I would not be surprised if the next generations greatest and most effective environmentalists are Chinese, Indian or Indonesian.
Mod
am a getting my Bachelor degree on Political Science in King Abdulaziz university.. Although we focus alot on regional politics and public po..."
Welcome to the group, Majid. We have people from all over the world in this group, and that's one of the things that keep it interesting.
Thank you mister Alan.. it be my pleasure to be part of this group with my fellow Readers from all over the world..
Political Philosophy and Ethics
Books mentioned in this topic
A Brief History of Philosophy: From Socrates to Derrida (other topics)A History of Western Philosophy (other topics)
An Economy of Want (other topics)
Kafka Unleashed: Stories, Dreams & Visions (other topics)
Threeway: A Short Novel for a Long Season (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Seneca (other topics)Augustine of Hippo (other topics)
Georgina T. (other topics)
I hold an A.B. (political science) and A.M. (humanities) from the University of Chicago and a J.D. from Cleveland State University, Cleveland-Marshall College of Law. I am retired from a long career as an attorney in which I focused mainly on constitutional and public law litigation. I am currently a full-time independent scholar in the fields of philosophy, history, political science, and constitutional law. I am the author of The First American Founder: Roger Williams and Freedom of Conscience (2015) and First Philosophy and Human Ethics: A Rational Inquiry (2000). For errata, updates, and excerpts from these books, as well as some of my other publications, see my Academia.edu home page. Additional information about my background and a selected list of my publications can be located on my website. For continuing updates regarding my work, click "Get Notifications" on the "like" button of my professional Facebook site.
(updated 11/3/2015)