SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Here is the first impressions thread for Too Like the Lightning by Ada Palmer. Please keep the discussion spoiler free.

I listened to this book on audio and loved it. To me, this is some of the best of what science fiction can be. Complicated ideas extrapolated far into the future to see where they lead. Changes in politics, religion and social order. This book demanded my concentration because there are so many characters and moving parts to the story. Once I got into it though, it was compulsively good.

I'm about 20% in. I really like the story and the world but there are a couple of things about the writing that are bothering me. I don't like the way he turns and addresses the reader and I'm getting very frustrated with all of the times he breaks off from the story to discuss someone's gender identity and gender expression. By the time I get through that whole paragraph or two I've lost the flow of the story and it takes me a bit to get back in.

I have a bit to go and I'm hoping the things I don't like smooth out.

This is definitely an idea book. It's too bad that the storytelling suffers - a lot - to make room for the ideas.

I think I'm just enamoured by the Shakespearean title. I should be starting it soon.

I'm loving the narratorial style - both the callback to the voice of older novels and the ... turns out I don't know the English word for it ... the imaginary reader being addressed(it's narratorio in Spanish). Mycroft regularly (and rightly) assumes that the reader has background knowledge that we, the flesh and blood reader, can't possibly have, but Palmer manages to structure things in ways that make it reasonable for enough explanation to creep in that we can figure it out. So a plot that would theoretically be semi-familiar to Mycroft's readers is constantly tantalizing to me.

Matthew wrote: " turns out I don't know the English word for it ... the imaginary reader being addressed(it's narratorio in Spanish)..."

The only term I've heard in English is "breaking the fourth wall."

This is an.. interesting book. I really like it, it's just difficult. I started reading it a few months ago and am still only half way through because I feel like my brain has to take a break every once in a while. I'm hoping doing it for the group will finally get me through to the end.

I have noticed that it helps to just go along with everything even if you don't understand what's going on. I feel like you are supposed to be a little confused all the time. Generally if I just push through and keep reading, things start to make sense eventually.

I'm really enjoying it and think it's one of the most original worlds I've read in some time. As you get further and further things get clearer and make more sense. I think this is the sort of book that would need to be read at least twice.

It is refreshing to see a work of fiction that is trying to go way beyond the merely entertaining. I feel like in the last few years SFF has been made to be an analog of tv series, not a vehicle for thoughts and ideas, but just another form of entertainment. The idea that books are here to distract us and entertain us is one that I dislike. As much as I love those work, I want to be challenged and I love the exploration of ideas. It's great to see an author that gives us a worthy effort into making speculative fiction profound again. I also love the form, this older style of writing is really fun.

Matthew wrote: "I'm loving the narratorial style - both the callback to the voice of older novels and the ... turns out I don't know the English word for it ... the imaginary reader being addressed(it's narratorio..."

He mentions a few times that he is explaining things because the reader's future might be so much ahead of his own time that they don't understand. A very clever way for the author to explain everything to us (the real reader), essentially in the past, while still sticking with the concept of Mycroft writing for those in the future. (Does that make sense?) Very complicated but pretty genius.

Sarah Anne wrote: "Matthew wrote: " turns out I don't know the English word for it ... the imaginary reader being addressed(it's narratorio in Spanish)..."

The only term I've heard in English is "breaking the fourth..."

Narratario* is a little different. The lit-crit structure I was taught (in Spanish) involves a 4-part hierarchy:

-- El autor (the author): the actual, flesh-and-blood person who wrote the work (in this case Ada Palmer).

-- El narrador/la voz narrativa (the narrator/the narrative voice): the person/voice that tells the story. Sometimes it's embodied in an identifiable person (in this case Mycroft Canner), sometimes it's unidentified with varying degrees of access to the characters' thoughts and feelings.

-- El narratario (??): the fictional reader that the narrator is addressing, who exists within the context of the novel. In this case, Mycroft is writing to an unspecified reader from the future (relative to his time).

-- El lector (the reader): the flesh-and-blood person who is reading the book, i.e. us =)

"Breaking the fourth wall" generally involves the narrador acknowledging the existence of the lector -- in other words, that they are part of a created, narrative work, and are themselves fictional. So if Mycroft spoke directly to us as readers of the book "Too Like the Lightning" by Ada Palmer, he would be breaking the fourth wall that separates the fictional world from our reality. As it is, he's addressing a narratario who is also a part of the fictional world that Ada Palmer has created.

It looks like the term in English might be "interlocutor", but I'm not really sure, and the internet is being unhelpful. I'm a native English speaker, but my literature courses have been primarily in other languages. #multilingualproblems

That sounds right. Mycroft would have to state that he is fictional for it to break the fourth wall. Instead it's written as a factual account with asides and footnotes. I quite like the style. It works and I don't think it breaks the flow but makes it richer.

I think in English this is the implied reader?

Travis wrote: "I think in English this is the implied reader?"

Yes! Thank you!

I read this earlier this year and t was super dense. I thought at the time it could use a reread for a better impression but didn't know when I'd get to it. Now's the time I suppose!

I'm a couple of chapters in to this one. I really enjoy the atypical writing style. I've just read a bunch of "normal" books lately, so this one is really appealing to me so far. I agree with earlier comments: it's best not to get hung up on details as you read. I notice that Mycroft will introduce concepts or nouns for the universe, not explain them at first, then explain them in a later chapter or section (words like 'bash and the job/class type system). In that way, the text reminds of Anathem by Stephenson (new to group, not sure if that was read in here before?), but this text is far more accessible. I didn't read any synopsis going into this one, so I'm really digging the story so far. I find the 4th wall breaking pretty humorous in the way he kind of breaks it to explain his motives or why he's describing something or someone in a particular way, "dear reader" or "gentle reader". Excellent choice of story, I joined this group for this very reason: to find and read some excellent books that I would otherwise not be aware of. Thanks! Looking forward to more discussion and observation as the month goes on.

So I was dreading this book. It's the most science fictiony thing I've read in years unless you count novels like Oryx and Crake. (I'm hoping this group can begin to change that.) I'd heard that it leaves its readers (actual and implied!) generally bewildered. I knew from The Incomparable podcast that this and its sequel, Seven Surrenders, were originally one manuscript, and I found myself skeptical about the reasons for breaking it into two separate books. I found the back cover copy poorly written and, for that, unappealing. And while I admit this is totally shallow, I counted points against it for featuring a blurb from the founder of Craigslist...

All that to say my expectations were way off the mark. I'm almost half way in and totally loving this. Yes I'm confused. Just when I think I'm beginning to figure the world out, Palmer throws in a whole new realm of bewilderment. But I find it strangely fast paced and appealing and am having a hard time putting it down. Even the abstract dialogues about philosophy and ethics are surprisingly engaging. So glad this was the pick!

edit: botched podcast name

To be honest, I'm not sure I would have picked this book off the shelf on my own. That's part of the fun of these grouo reads for me, though, to get me to read something I might not otherwise have done. Just one chapter in and I'm kind of hooked in already. Can't wait to see if the author will maintain my interest.

Sarah Anne wrote: "I'm about 20% in. I really like the story and the world but there are a couple of things about the writing that are bothering me. I don't like the way he turns and addresses the reader and I'm gett..."

Totally agree. For the moment (I am just 10% on to it) I am not getting the idea. It's being really difficult for me following the story but I hope it gets better while I go forward. Considering I am not a native English reader, the mix the author does with the "his/her" and the "them" put myself in a hard position to understand (it's taking me a lot of read and re-read).

Anyway, I am curious about the story, so I will keep reading hoping my mind starts getting things easily.

Pablo wrote: "Considering I am not a native English reader, the mix the author does with the "his/her" and the "them" put myself in a hard position to understand (it's taking me a lot of read and re-read). ."

As a native English speaker it's still confusing and it's confusing on purpose. Mycroft uses gender labels based on (mainly) stereotypical traits and conceptions rather than anything biologically based.

One reader asked a question about the novel's ideas about religion and gender on the book's Goodreads page, and Ada Palmer wrote in with what was for me a thoughtful and helpful response.

The direct link to that Q & A is here: https://www.goodreads.com/questions/7...

Listening to this is challenging, at least the way I listen which is mostly listening while other distractions occur. I agree with Kim in that I think this story/world will really shine when I read it for a second time which I will do instead of listen.

Travis wrote: "The direct link to that Q & A is here: https://www.goodreads.com/questions/7..."

Thanks for this. I really think this is something anyone who reads the book should also read.

Sorry to share even more... I can't stop myself from going down total rabbit holes with this book! Here's a really great podcast interview with Ada Palmer that is also nicely spoiler free. It's a fantastic orientation to the world. http://newbooksnetwork.com/ada-palmer...

Did anyone else find the book a little too ... self-aware of its own cleverness??
Don't know if I'm conveying the feeling quite right.
Like being overly complicated and clever for its own sake ?

Rachel wrote: "Did anyone else find the book a little too ... self-aware of its own cleverness?? ... Like being overly complicated and clever for its own sake ?"

I'm actually surprised I haven't had this feeling. It's definitely been the case with other books -- the reason I've never been able to finish anything by Thomas Pynchon, for instance.

I'm 20 pages away from the end and really love this book. There are, though, about 1.5 things that absolutely annoy me, but I'll wait to talk about those until we get to the spoilers thread.

Yes, Rachel. It's very clunky and awkward to me because of these techniques.

I would much rather read Pynchon :)

Rachel wrote: "Did anyone else find the book a little too ... self-aware of its own cleverness??
Don't know if I'm conveying the feeling quite right.
Like being overly complicated and clever for its own sake ?"

Rachel, yes. Especially when combined with the asides to the implied reader. I ended up rolling my eyes for much of the last half of the book.

Benjamin wrote: "Rachel, yes. Especially when combined with the asides to the implied reader. I ended up rolling my eyes for much of the last half of the book. ..."

I put it down at 37% and haven't been able to bring myself to pick it back up.

Sarah Anne wrote: "I put it down at 37% and haven't been able to bring myself to pick it back up."

That's probably what I should have done. Instead, I also read the sequel too, skimming through some of it. Oh well.

Save yourself! Before the third and fourth books come out :)

I'll add that despite that I still read it AND Seven surrenders. I think the world, general plot, and many of the issues interesting. I just wish the way it was told...I guess it just is a bit off-putting. So I rate it lower since it's always there slightly annoying me.

Rachel wrote: "Did anyone else find the book a little too ... self-aware of its own cleverness??
Don't know if I'm conveying the feeling quite right.
Like being overly complicated and clever for its own sake ?"

I definitely see what you're talking about, although it didn't bother me. I think that's partly because the narrator has such a strong presence and personality that I ascribe those characteristics to him rather than the author. Apparently I'm willing to put up with a too-clever narrator more than a too-clever author? Explicitly stating that the goal was an imitation of an 18th century writing style probably also helped, because I was expecting a fair bit of smugness. ;)

... I have other things I'd say about it, but I'm pretty sure they need to wait for the spoiler thread.

I really liked the conceit of the narrator talking to the reader and all the asides, but I'm also really used to it from 18th and 19th century novels (specifically British novels) where that happened all the time. So to me, it's part of Palmer's world-building and I totally get why it's off-putting (especially if you don't like the 18th century novel), but I found it to be a very clever part of the book's larger interests.

Just started chapter 5, and I'm starting to get into the story. This is why I enjoy sci fi, exploring ideas like this is like brain food. I'm finding the writing to be original and clever, but not annoyingly so.

I only started a few days ago because I was catching up on other Hugo stuff. I was expecting to find it challenging but good. I feel like I'm reading a thesis about alien physics or something, I know all the words but I couldn't tell you anything about what I've read. I'm at 20% and I feel like I'm just turning pages and not taking anything in. It's just not my style of book. I feel very stupid for not getting why everyone loves this so much.

This is exactly what I was expecting when I started Ninefox Gambit, but I ended up loving it and understanding way more than I thought I would. And the weird parts were just a part of the story, there was still lots of other stuff to enjoy while trying to wrap your head around the world. But with this, my eyes just slide from one word to the next and my brain isn't accepting any of it. Well, obviously I can grasp the simple main plot of what's happening, but all the "cool bits" are going completely over my head.

I haven't been able to bring myself to DNF a book ever, and I certainly don't want this to be the first one, but I don't think there's any point in continuing with something that I can't process at all. I think I'm giving it one more chance tomorrow when I have more time to read a larger portion in one sitting, maybe I just need to focus more.

Anna wrote: "my eyes just slide from one word to the next and my brain isn't accepting any of it"

I've certainly had this happen to me. Sometimes its just not the right time for a certain book.

Anna wrote: "I only started a few days ago because I was catching up on other Hugo stuff. I was expecting to find it challenging but good. I feel like I'm reading a thesis about alien physics or something, I kn..."

This is exactly how I'm feeling about this book. Due to two longer train rides I got until 38% but now back at home I don't feel any need to pick the book up again ...

I hit 37% and never picked it up again.

Good to know I'm not the only one. I just want to understand what it is that people love. With most books I can see that even if I don't personally like it. I just feel like my brain is missing some vital part required to understand the greatness here.

The mystery of it all. Why the world is as it is, who/what/why Mycroft is, who/what/why Bridger is. There's more but I can't say without the spoiler thread, so I'll hold off for now.

Anna wrote: "Good to know I'm not the only one. I just want to understand what it is that people love. With most books I can see that even if I don't personally like it. I just feel like my brain is missing som..."

I feel this way too. I only had to read the first chapter of this book to know that it isn't for me, because I found the prose style terrible and wasn't buying the whole premise.

I liked it a lot, but I totally get how off-putting the book can be. I wonder if as a first-time novelist she took "show don't tell" as an inviolable law instead of a guiding principle. If you're annoyed but still wanting to carry on, the podcast I linked to above provides a guide to the world that clarifies many of the first half's more confusing elements and provides a general introduction to the world without spoiling any of the major plot developments...

Travis wrote: "I wonder if as a first-time novelist she took "show don't tell" as an inviolable law instead of a guiding principle."

Not with the long descriptions of philosophers' ideas. And the narrator's long digressions. The book had way too much telling for my taste.

Chris wrote: "Not with the long descriptions of philosophers' ideas. And the ..."

Fair enough! I thought some of those were truer to the characterization and the world than others.

But my comment was referring more to the development of the world. I'm not sure the novel gains anything by leaving us as confused as it does for as long as it does about the basic organization of 25th-century human life.

More to your point, though, I actually found some of the dialogues about philosophy more to be "showing" than "telling," because they were helping us to understand this as a period in which the 18th-century is experiencing a tremendous Renaissance.

Palmer wrote on her blog how she got to pblish this book. (link)

It might explain a bit of the impressions people are having while reading her novel.

I have no problem DNF'ing a book. Not every thing is for every one even if it is widely acclaimed.

I couldn't get past like 8% of NINEFOX GAMBIT for example.

I am just starting reading it and quite like it although I feel stupid cause I don't know exactly what I am reading.

Also it does not help that I am listening to VanderMeers Borne at the same time, the characters are blending into eachother and perhaps Bridger is Borne!!! *jk*