Brain Pain discussion

Episode 10, Wandering Rocks - – pp 280 – 328 new (page 208 old)


Scene: The Streets
Hour: 3 pm
Organ: Blood
Art: Mechanics
Symbol: Citizens
Technic: Labyrinth


18 short scenes in the streets of Dublin.

Very "architectonic" of Joyce to put 18 scenes in an episode in a book with 18 episodes.

the 6th vignette where Stephen is talking with an Italian gentleman-in Italiano--(I know some)

It seems like they are talking about Molly, how exceptional her voice is, and how she has sacrificed it, herself? They end the conversation vowing to think seriously about the matter, which is...? Something to do with Molly?

There's a lot of repeating 6's in this episode.

Stephen seems to have gotten rid of Buck somehow in this episode. Also when he sees his sister Dilly at the bookstand it appears his "We" means family.

Also, to get back to the question of the Blooms' odd marriage. Leo buys Molly a book that seems to echo her infidelity, that he instinctively feels she will like--a present. It makes him feel "warm" reading and with relation to her reaction to it. I know it's often said that Bloom has voyeuristic tendencies, and this may be in line with that, but what to make of their relationship????

Tracy wrote: "the 6th vignette where Stephen is talking with an Italian gentleman-in Italiano--(I know some)

It seems like they are talking about Molly, how exceptional her voice is, and how she has sacrificed ..."
At this point in the story Stephen doesn't even know Molly. The voice they are talking about is Stephen's. I'm using Gifford's translations from his Annotated.

Tracy wrote: "Also, to get back to the question of the Blooms' odd marriage. Leo buys Molly a book that seems to echo her infidelity, that he instinctively feels she will like--a present. It makes him feel "warm..."
I think Molly asks Bloom to get her a new book in the Calypso episode. She sort of complains that the last one he got her didn't have anything smutty in it. Yes Molly's taste for mildly pornographic literature seems to mirror Bloom's determined voyeurism. Both partners appear sexual frustrated, and both seem to have their own way of dealing with it. In Bloom's mind Molly and "warmth" are almost synonymous.

Tracy wrote: "Stephen seems to have gotten rid of Buck somehow in this episode. Also when he sees his sister Dilly at the bookstand it appears his "We" means family."
I agree. I think "We." means family. I find this scene the most important one in the whole chapter. The pathetic situation Stephen's sister's are in; and Stephen standing there with money in his pocket, doing nothing to relieve their suffering.

Mark wrote: "Tracy wrote: "the 6th vignette where Stephen is talking with an Italian gentleman-in Italiano--(I know some)

It seems like they are talking about Molly, how exceptional her voice is, and how she h..."

But it says "lei"--that's a feminine Italian pronoun.

I can't read a word of Italian, so I'm dependent on Gifford's translation from his Ulysses Annotated. Here is what Gifford provides for the fourth paragraph in this scene:

"I too had the same idea when I was young as you are. At that time I was convinced that the world is a beast [i.e., a pigsty]. It's to bad. Because your voice...would be a source of income, come now. But instead you are sacrificing yourself." (228)

Plus there is the circumstantial evidence: I don't think either Stephen or Almidano Artifoni knows Molly, so why would they be discussing her voice? And also Stephen is a singer himself.

Maybe voice is a feminine noun oh, just remembered, you use Lei for formal "6 you"3
As well.. that explains it-- seems it's Simon who could really use this contact......

Cool! - )
But {"6 you"3} ? Is this internet language?

Mark wrote: "Cool! - )
But {"6 you"3} ? Is this internet language?"

It's either fat-fingering or pocket-dialing.....

Sorry that's was from my phone-- dunno how the numbers got there

Tracy wrote: "Sorry that's was from my phone-- dunno how the numbers got there"
Cool! Thanks. - )

Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: "Cool! - )
But {"6 you"3} ? Is this internet language?"

It's either fat-fingering or pocket-dialing....."
Thanks Jim! Unfortunately, for me, I don't know what "fat-fingering" or "pocket-dialing" are either....Showing my age....I guess I can assume it's got something to do with cell phones?

Mark wrote: "Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: "Cool! - )
But {"6 you"3} ? Is this internet language?"

It's either fat-fingering or pocket-dialing....."
Thanks Jim! Unfortunately, for me, I don't know what "fat-fingeri..."
When your finger hits two keys at the same time, suggesting that your fingers may be less than svelte...

pocket-dialing (aka 'butt-dialing') is when you accidentally place a call when your mobile is in your pocket

And now, we return to our regularly scheduled program.....

Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: "Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: "Cool! - )
But {"6 you"3} ? Is this internet language?"

It's either fat-fingering or pocket-dialing....."
Thanks Jim! Unfortunately, for me, I don't know what..."
Cool! Thanks. I feel almost modern! - )

Yeah except 6 or 3 is not next to the quotation button on my phone so mystery- not solved

Tracy wrote: "Yeah except 6 or 3 is note next to the quotation button on my phone so mystery- not solved"

mystery fingers......

Jim wrote: "Tracy wrote: "Yeah except 6 or 3 is note next to the quotation button on my phone so mystery- not solved"

mystery fingers......"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZuFq...

Christopher wrote: "Jim wrote: "Tracy wrote: "Yeah except 6 or 3 is note next to the quotation button on my phone so mystery- not solved"

mystery fingers......"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZuFq..."

Okay.... ten more minutes of thread drift, then back to Joyce....

It wasn't easy, but I found a website with literal translations of the Italian:

Ma! (Italian) But![1]


Anch'io ho avuto di queste idee ... quand' ero giovine come Lei. Eppoi mi sono convinto che il mondo è una bestia. É peccato. Perchè la sua voce ... sarebbe un cespite di rendita, via. Invece, Lei si sacrifica. (Italian) I too have had this idea ... when I was young like you. I am even convinced that the world is a beastly thing. It's a pity. Because your voice ... would be a source of income, you know. But instead, you sacrifice yourself.[2]


Sacrifizio incruento (Italian) A bloodless sacrifice.[3]


Speriamo... Ma, dia retta a me. Ci rifletta (Italian) Let us hope... But, listen to me. Think about it.[4] Gabler emends this to: Ma, dia: retta a me, which makes no sense. In The Little Review dia occurred at the end of a line and was joined by a hyphen to retta, which also makes no sense.[5] The 1922 text, however, is good Italian and needs no emending. Artifoni is using the third person singular imperative of dare (dia retta a me = give heed to me); in Italian the third person singular is used as a polite form of address.


Ci rifletterò (Italian) I'll think about it.[6]


Ma, sul serio, eh? (Italian) But do you really mean to, eh?.[7]


Eccolo... Venga a trovarmi e ci pensi. Addio, caro (Italian) Here it is [his tram]... Come and see me and think about it. Goodbye, my dear fellow.[8]


Arrivederla, maestro... E grazie (Italian) Goodbye, master... And thank you.[9] Stephen uses the more formal arrivederla in place of the commoner arrivederci.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Annotat...

His Italian teacher thinks he could make money singing.

And Simon seems to be a better singer than whatever he was.. solicitor?

And while I'm on touchy subjects, is there any implication that Simon is spending the "five bob" Bloom gave to the Dignam memorial fund on getting tanked? Where did Simon D. get five shillings?

Christopher wrote: "And while I'm on touchy subjects, is there any implication that Simon is spending the "five bob" Bloom gave to the Dignam memorial fund on getting tanked? Where did Simon D. get five shillings?"

I feel so much better to have this all straight! Thanks all!

I'm guessing he's been selling Stephen's books( The 5 bob). So then it would be ironic if Dilly's buying books.)

Most of that Italian speech is in the subjunctive case, expressing wishes or future possibilities, so I think" Ma, dia:" actually works too, if you think of it this way as translation--"You will listen to me (give me your attention, your ear), I wish to give . (dia)" I know that doesn't translate perfectly into English, because we don't use subjunctive in that way,--we would just end with "I hope", after asking to be listened to. And I think it's worth noting for the sense of polite prodding he is giving Stephen. There's definitely a sense of formality in this conversation, as you noted with the arrivederla.

It sort of makes you wish he'd walked down the street to listen to Simon as well, to give an evaluation. I don't know if I'm just being hopeful that he has some sort of connections, and wonder why the Blooms never helped promote Simon?

The other unsung (or should I say unpaid?) hero/musician of this episode is the blind stripling piano tuner and player. Seems like Joyce may be making some sort of commentary on all the artistic talent that goes unrecognized--sad.

Christopher wrote: "His Italian teacher thinks he could make money singing.

And Simon seems to be a better singer than whatever he was.. solicitor?"

I tried to check that out--I think at one time he owned some property that gave him substantial status in the past, but then he lost the property. It's explained more thoroughly in "Portrait", but it's been awhile since I read it, and I've forgotten the details.

As to the question of where or how Simon Daedalus got ahold of some money the best place to look seems to be section 11.

At the beginning of the section Dilly Daedalus seems to think to herself: "Those lovely curtains. Five shillings."
But she is not in the auction rooms, she's outside; and when she meets up with her father, it says: (he)" came round from Williams row."

A couple of paragraphs further on Dilly says: "Did you get any money?" Which sort of distances both Dilly and Simon from the curtains and the five shillings.
Simon replies: "Where would I get money?'
Then Dilly says: "You got some."
Then Simon gives her a shilling.
Then Dilly says: "I suppose you got five." Sort of pointing us back toward the curtains, maybe?
A few sentences later Dilly repeats: "You got more than that, father."
To which Simon replies: "I got two shillings from Jack Powers..." And gives Dilly two pennies.
Dilly's final comment: "I'm sure you have another shilling."
And the scene comes to a close.

Dilly seemed to identify with the curtains. And five shillings is the amount that we are talking about, but it is ambiguous as to whether Simon was even in the auction room - let alone with curtains - and the other two shillings he said he got from Powers is sort of unaccounted for.

Mark wrote: "As to the question of where or how Simon Daedalus got ahold of some money the best place to look seems to be section 11.

At the beginning of the section Dilly Daedalus seems to think to herself: "..."

I totally missed the curtain connection--I couldn't figure out what she was doing there, but figured it had something to do with Da. Maybe it was those nice Irish lace curtains Dublin's known for?