Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion

Debaters here use the Biblical writings as their authority.

If the Biblical writings are to have any authority at all, debaters need to establish that the "scriptures" came from Yahweh (or Jesus, or the Holy Ghost).

I put it that not a single verse has ever been shown as having come from anywhere other than the imaginations and quills of men.

I put it that quoting "scripture" as "authority" has no authority whatsoever.

Stuart you know very well that the Bible has some authority as a source of history if nothing else. Your satire-esc speech I understand is used to prove a point to people you view as less intelligent then you. However you and I both know very well the historicity Gospels have been supported by current archaeological finds.

I agree with you however Stuart that outside of Theist circles the Bible holds no authority, of course it doesn't. It's a two way street however, Lesbian Dance Theory has noted authority among atheist circles like those in which you claim membership; Theists would consider that just as palpably ridiculous as you would consider the Bible. So the argument from authority is a stupid one, on both sides. It is equally irrelevant respectively as a cited source of argument because it relies on a preconceived notion that only one side of the argument has.

Derrick wrote: "Stuart you know very well that the Bible has some authority as a source of history if nothing else. Your satire-esc speech I understand is used to prove a point to people you view as less intellige..."

Historical fiction usually contains genuine history.

Many of us can discern the fictional bits.

I suggest that Christians who believe (or pretend to believe) the bits they haven't yet discarded, can also discern the fictional bits.

To say that the bible doesn't contain history is demonstrably wrong - on both sides. There is enough evidence in the bible to see the light of the gospel if you're searching for truth. Stuart appears to be happty with his own godship, so he is blinded by his unbelief. I pray this changes for him before his godship ends at the grave. Which is an enemy to us all.

Wade wrote: "Stuart appears to be happty with his own godship, so he is blinded by his unbelief. I pray this changes for him before his godship ends ..."

Amen Wade!

Stewie do you not think there are some tests you can do to see if a book is written by a God? Or a demon? Or generic people?

If it's just a book - then there's no reason we can't all agree on it?! Just words on a page.

Here's a clue: nobody has ever thought that the Bible was written by less than 40 authors across 2 major religions. What normally happens when 40 people write something?

Why would anyone who does not believe in God be expected to know the difference from the Word of God and the word of men?

The bible is 66 books by 40 authors on 3 continents in 3 languages, various styles, various professions by the writers, written over 1500 years, all books have a common unified theme, contains hundreds of prophecies - most of which have been already fulfilled. It covers history, science, and most of all, a savior who died for our sins. It's about Immanuel - God among us. It's the only religion which has a God who takes the punishment for our sins instead of vice versa.

But then again, some people are more impressed with a nitwit like Nostradamus, whose prophecies were vague and largely unfulfilled.

For me and my house, we will worship God with much gratitude.

Robert wrote: "Why would anyone who does not believe in God be expected to know the difference from the Word of God and the word of men?"

Because they haven't been brainwashed into thinking the angels and virgins and talking donkeys and such are real.

Rod wrote: "Stewie do you not think there are some tests you can do to see if a book is written by a God? Or a demon? Or generic people?

If it's just a book - then there's no reason we can't all agree on it?..."

I would really love to know what those tests are, Roddie ....

That's what I'm asking right here.

Wade wrote: "The bible is 66 books by 40 authors on 3 continents in 3 languages, various styles, various professions by the writers, written over 1500 years, all books have a common unified theme, contains hund..."


So YOUR Bible is THE Bible ...?

Prove it ....

I just gave you a whole lot of reasons to believe the bible, Stuart. Of course, I expect some kind of snarky, hateful response because that's how your roll.

Once again, Jesus is waiting for you to repent and trust alone in Him.

I just proved it. If you start out not wanting to believe, you'll find it.

Wade wrote: "The bible is 66 books by 40 authors on 3 continents in 3 languages, various styles, various professions by the writers, written over 1500 years, all books have a common unified theme, contains hund..."


1500 years is false.

The oldest writings found are from about 150 years before Jesus burst through the hymen of the BVM.

Christian forgeries aside - most of the writings were written by Jewish men within a few days donkey ride of Jerusalem

Wade wrote: "The bible is 66 books by 40 authors on 3 continents in 3 languages, various styles, various professions by the writers, written over 1500 years, all books have a common unified theme, contains hund..."


The Samaritan THE Bible only has 5 books

Wade wrote: "The bible is 66 books by 40 authors on 3 continents in 3 languages, various styles, various professions by the writers, written over 1500 years, all books have a common unified theme, contains hund..."


The Ethiopic Christian THE Bible has 82 books

How can we determine that any version of God had anything to do with the writing of so much as a verse of any of THE Bibles ...?

Stuart's defense is that some flawed people have it wrong when it comes to the bible. In no way is that a refutation of the truth stated.

Go back to your lame Richard Dawkins talking points and try again. If not, perhaps you should go to another string with your hatefulness.

Jesus awaits your repentance.

Stuart wrote: "Because they haven't been brainwashed into thinking the angels and virgins and talking donkeys and such are real..."

Actually it IS because they have been BLINDED by satan.

2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "Because they haven't been brainwashed into thinking the angels and virgins and talking donkeys and such are real..."

Actually it IS because they have been
BLINDED
by satan.

2 C..."

You quoted a bit of biblical text as your only rebuttal.

Can you demonstrate that that bit of human writing has the imprimatur of "God" ...?

Stuart wrote: "You quoted a bit of biblical text as your only rebuttal. Can you demonstrate that that bit of human writing has the imprimatur of "God" ...? ..."

My response: You must consider yourself very important to think that God has to answer to you!

Of course, He has already proven Himself... and one day you will know it. I just pray that it is BEFORE it is too late.

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "You quoted a bit of biblical text as your only rebuttal. Can you demonstrate that that bit of human writing has the imprimatur of "God" ...? ..."

My response: You must consider your..."

Your honest response would be to admit that of course you can't demonstrate that any version of "God" was behind any of the human writings you use as the authority of God.

Your world of imagination and delusion would collapse if you did.

But you can resort to thinly-veiled threats of eternal damnation.

Your hatred is showing again, Stuart. Do you have the ability actually answer questions, or do you have to check your Dawkins manual first?

Stuart wrote: "But you can resort to thinly-veiled threats of eternal damnation..."

My response: Thinly veiled??? ... allow me to be more clear and QUOTE GOD...

John 3:36 - "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him ."

I pray that this is clear enough for you.

You still fail to demonstrate that you quoting the words of men is QUOTING GOD

Wade wrote: "Your hatred is showing again, Stuart. Do you have the ability actually answer questions, or do you have to check your Dawkins manual first?"

And Wade continues to avoid addressing the topic

Stuart wrote: "You still fail to demonstrate that you quoting the words of men is QUOTING GOD"

Yet you quote the words of MEN in your futile efforts to discredit the WORD OF GOD !

LOL!!!

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "You still fail to demonstrate that you quoting the words of men is QUOTING GOD"

Yet you
quote the words of MEN
in your futile efforts to discredit the
WORD OF GOD


LOL!!!"

Again you claim you have the word of a god.

And again you fail to demonstrate that it is the word of a god

Stuart wrote: "Again you claim you have the word of a god...."

My response: Again you denounce the Word of God... with nothing but your own words... the word of a man.

LOL!

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "Again you claim you have the word of a god...."

My response: Again you denounce the Word of God... with nothing but your own words... the word of a man.

LOL!"


Demonstrate that it is the Word of God ....

Or give an honest answer

Stuart wrote: "Demonstrate that it is the Word of God ...."

It is.

Again you denounce the Word of God... with nothing but your own words... the word of a man .

LOL!

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "Demonstrate that it is the Word of God ...."

It is.

Again you denounce the Word of God...
with nothing but your own words... the word of a man
.
Not one Christian ever demonstrates that a single verse of any Bible came from "God".

Pointing this out is not 'denouncing".

It's just honest.

Which is more than I can say for many Christians.

Naive gullibility often turns into downright deception, rather than suffer the detox of getting off the religion drug.

LOL!"

Stuart wrote: "Not one Christian ever demonstrates that a single verse of any Bible came from "God"..."

My response: If the Bible is NOT the Word of God... why do you CARE SO MUCH about it????

Answer: You are TERRIFIED of being judged by the Holy God of all creation.

Stewie, simply read the Bible a few times - then read the Quran, Book of Mormon, Hindu tales, some Sikh literature, some myths, some Buddhist scribbles... spot the difference.

Since it's only a book - you can easily sort out this Protestant/Catholic confusion. And realign all those thousands of denominations.

The Bible shouldn't be magically confusing to a scholarly atheist. And yet...?

17 July 2017

To Whom it May Concern:

I would like to interject a very revealing passage from the Holy Scriptures for those who know the LORD, and for those who have a sincere desire to walk with God--the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

If you are one "In whom the god of this world hath blinded," I pray that God may open your eyes, so that you can see that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God, and that God the Father sent His dear Son (the "True Light") into this dark and dying world to be the "Saviour of the world."

It is this same Jesus who "gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14) And may all of us have "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the truth of the reality that is set before us, while there is still time!

With the love of Christ,
C. Read

1 Corinthians 2:1 "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1 Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Wow, what a heated discussion going on here! It will probably go on until Jesus comes back and proves that He is the word of God. Until then, it is a matter of FAITH.
There is no proof that the word of God is the word of God. There never will be. If you accept it as the truth for yourself, then - and only then - you will find that it is true. And God will reveal himself to you. But if you don't want to believe in him, well - don't. I think if God doesn't force anyone to trust him, we don't need to get so worked up about a question like this.

Annette wrote: "Wow, what a heated discussion going on here! It will probably go on until Jesus comes back and proves that He is the word of God. Until then, it is a matter of FAITH.
There is no proof that the wo..."

Sorry Annette, I disagree. There is TONS of proof that the Bible is the Word of God. That is why MANY atheists, skeptics, authors, etc. over the years have set out to prove the Bible wrong and many of them have been saved...

...archeology never contradicts the Bible
...the Bible never contradicts itself
...~ 40 authors writing over ~1,600 years in four different languages, on different continents, all with a consistent story
...extra-biblical historical documents support the Bible
...etc. etc. etc.

While I agree that it is a matter of faith...

...I completely disagree that there is NO PROOF that the Bible is the Word of God.

Annette wrote: "Wow, what a heated discussion going on here! It will probably go on until Jesus comes back and proves that He is the word of God. Until then, it is a matter of FAITH.
There is no proof that the wo..."

Annette and my pal Roddie are perhaps the most honest Christians here.

Naive and credulous perhaps, but seemingly honest.

To accept the mythological writings about angels and virgins and talking animals and genocidal global floods during a period of identifiable history as reality is not "faith": it's brainwashing.

Other Christians here have the intellect to recognise fantasy when they see it, but not the honesty to acknowledge it.

Archaeology, paleontology, geology and numerous other evidence-based sciences do contradict the biblical writings (there is no THE Bible)

The biblical writings are full of contradictions

No one knows how many authors of the biblical writings there were - as far as I Can tell, not one writer has ever been independently identified.

1600 years of writing is just false

Historical records don't support creating humans from mud and ribs, global floods, talking animals, virgin-born god-men and all the other make=believe

Stuart wrote: "Annette and my pal Roddie are perhaps the most honest Christians here...."

My response: Thanks for your OPINIONS Stuart. I will take them for what they are worth...

So all of these random writers wrote a perfect story over many centuries? So I say. A Cosmic Lord of the Rings.

Others state that the Bible has been heavily edited... yet full of contradictions? Hmmm?! See the challenge Stewie? If not - then maybe you should read it again.

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "Annette and my pal Roddie are perhaps the most honest Christians here...."

My response: Thanks for your OPINIONS Stuart. I will take them for what they are worth..."

Robert didn't refute a single point I made.

I suspect he recognises he's been dealing with make-believe.

I suspect in his pre-Christian days, he recognised it as make-believe

Stuart wrote: "Robert didn't refute a single point I made.
..."

That is easy... you did not make a single valid point!

Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "Robert didn't refute a single point I made.
..."

That is easy... you did not make a
single valid point!
"

1600 years is false.

The oldest Jewish writings are from about 150 BCE.

The newest Christian forgeries are from a few centuries into the common era at the most.

500 years is the outside.

Beyond that is speculation and wishful thinking

Stuart wrote: "1600 years is false.

My response: NOT valid... just YOUR OPINION!
_____________________________

Stuart wrote: "The oldest Jewish writings are from about 150 BCE."

My response: NOT valid... just YOUR OPINION!
_____________________________

Stuart wrote: "The newest Christian forgeries are from a few centuries into the common era at the most."

My response: NOT valid... just YOUR OPINION!
_____________________________

Stuart wrote: "500 years is the outside."

My response: NOT valid... just YOUR OPINION!
_____________________________

Archeology and legitimate scholarship DEBUNK your OPINIONS with such simplicity that an easy Google search demonstrates that you offer NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE!

Robert, I'm afraid the proofs that you listed are only proofs if you decide to let them stand as such. If you decide to believe them.
If you don't want to believe them - as Stuart obviously does - they are not valid. I believe them. But you will not make Stuart say he believes them, no matter what you yell at him.
The Word of God says: The greatest command is to love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength and your neighbor as you love yourself.
There is not much love I read in your responses. So may I ask: Is Stuart your neighbor? Or your enemy? Ooops, the Word of God also says you should love your enemies. Hmmmm...

-Stuart? Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it.

Annette wrote: "Robert, I'm afraid the proofs that you listed are only proofs if you decide to let them stand as such. If you decide to believe them.
If you don't want to believe them - as Stuart obviously does -..."

My response: Truth is truth whether someone chooses to believe it or not.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY way of salvation... THAT IS TRUTH! ... no matter who believes it or not!

Annette wrote: "There is not much love I read in your responses. -..."

My response: Thanks for your OPINION. Of course the Bible tells us that ONLY God can KNOW what is in a person's heart.

So, how do you KNOW what is in my heart?

Annette wrote: "Ooops, the Word of God also says you should love your enemies. Hmmmm-..."

My question: Was Jesus "loving" His enemies when He made a whip and cleansed the Temple?

Did those people at the end of the whip believe that Jesus was "loving" them?

Robert wrote: "Annette wrote: "There is not much love I read in your responses. -..."

My response: Thanks for your OPINION. Of course the Bible tells us that ONLY God can KNOW what is in a person's heart.

So, h..."
I did not presume to know what is in your heart. I am only reflecting for you what I read and how it comes across.
Now I also feel yelled at, which is what I expected. I will therefore refrain from further comments.

Annette wrote: "Now I also feel yelled at, which is what I expected. I will therefore refrain from further comments. ..."

So you won't answer the questions? That is what I expected.