Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Robert's Books
Outside of the Book this Christian has:Israel just a continent away. Still in the news.
Christians building hospitals, schools, orphanages, soup kitchens...
A world of history and geography that endlessly intertwines with the Bible story.
Marriage as God intended.
The evils and sin of man as clearly defined in a 2000? Year old book.
A war against proper Christianity as suggested in that book.
I'm not a Christian simply because of an old book - but because of what I see ALL around me. What do you see Stewie? Or are you too busy simply complaining?
Stuart wrote: "McDowell is a typical morass and smokescreen. I agree with the reviewer who wrote:..."My response: What a complete WASTE of time!
Stuart has NEVER read ANY books by Christians in support of God and the Bible...
...yet he FALSELY claims to have done so.
Rather than ANSWER my request... Stuart WILL NOT (cannot) quote anything HE HIMSELF has read from any Christian book. And then refute it.
Why? Because he has NEVER READ ANY (but says he has).
Stuart wrote: "And no, I'm not going to fall for the trick of refuting every claim in every book...."My response: Of course you're not... YOU CAN'T!
I put it that not one Christian who makes the claims that the biblical writings and Jesus came from the - for me mythological - Jewish deity Yahweh has a shred of independently verifiable evidence to back the claims.But Robert could post a sentence to the contrary.
Just one sentence, Robert ...
But you never have
And, I suggest, you never will
We both know there isn't one to be posted.
We are dealing with make-believe.
It's time for honesty ....
It is time for honesty Stuart...Why don't you just admit that you LIED about having read MANY such Christian books...
...I am ready for honesty... ARE YOU? (we'll see)
Has anyone else noticed that Stuart answers ZERO questions? He always responds with "not the tiniest ..." something or other. Hey Stuart - where did all of creation come from? Bill Nye, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and every other skeptic can't answer this. Can you?
Jesus awaits your repentance.
Wade wrote: "Has anyone else noticed that Stuart answers ZERO questions? He always responds with "not the tiniest ..." something or other. Hey Stuart - where did all of creation come from? Bill Nye, Richard D..."
I'm a mythologist.
When Christians try to divert attention away from creation mythology and onto science ... I leave it to scientists.
But I love to answer questions about Jesus ...
Robert wrote: "It is time for honesty Stuart...Why don't you just admit that you LIED about having read MANY such Christian books...
...I am ready for honesty... ARE YOU? (we'll see)"
Could I really know as much as I do without reading evidence-free books by Christians ...?
Now, about the 1,600 years of biblical "scripture" please ...?
Stuart wrote: "Could I really know as much as I do without reading evidence-free books by Christians ..."Since you know NOTHING...
...yes indeed you could have learned that without reading anything.
Now, cite the books you have read (which would be NONE) and cite the passages you have refuted (which would be NONE).
And cite the "evidence" for atheism, which would be none. Nothing is actually your theme, isn't it Stuart? Yeah, I get it. Nothing created everything. Have they legalized marijuana where you're from?
Pointless trying to save people who just aren't very bright from the fantasies they have been brainwashed into.Fortunately there are those who are young and intelligent and strong enough to escape.
Or not not fall for the mind and money trap of Christian fantasy in the first place.
You're not bright enough to talk down to others, Stuart. Really. You're not the sharpest tool in the shed. And you're rude. Jesus awaits your repentance.
Wade wrote: "You're not bright enough to talk down to others, Stuart. Really. You're not the sharpest tool in the shed. And you're rude. Jesus awaits your repentance."
I'm honest.
And I've never claimed to be bright myself.
If you want rude ... take a look at how the good Christian Robert behaves.
And I don't make threats - veiled or otherwise - of eternity in the loving Jesus' pit of Hell.
Because, according to you guys, that's where I'm going end up because I haven't bought the convoluted make-believe that many of the people who make their living from, know fine well it's nonsense.
I've seen it demonstrated here a number of times, just how dishonest Christians can be when it comes to Christianity.
Stuart ... you have no idea what dialogue is. You don't answer questions and your intellectual dishonesty is off the charts. Jesus is waiting for you.
Stuart, hi. Question for ya. Have you researched the Christian viewpoints? For instance, Dr. Craig's arguments for God, Ravi Zacharias, etc. What was your honest opinion of them?
Marty wrote: "Stuart, hi. Question for ya. Have you researched the Christian viewpoints? For instance, Dr. Craig's arguments for God, Ravi Zacharias, etc. What was your honest opinion of them?"
Hi Marty - I come from a family of some generations of Christian clergymen.
I've read a lot.
I've analysed a lot.
Christianity is a fraud.
If you are questioning your faith/brainwashing, please carefully read my stuff.
You will need to look past the howling and spitting and diversion and smokescreens and LOLs put up by the Sunday schoolers here.
You may be young, strong and intelligent enough to escape.
Otherwise you may spend your lifetime pretending to believe.
And then you may discover that "God" rewards the intellectually honest.
Stuart - thanks for the response. I've questioned my faith, no doubt. It's grown stronger than ever. I'm not fooled by hypocrites, of course there will be a lot of hypocrites. I'm not fooled by the naturalists who say that science is the only way to know truth - that's silly. What I do know is that there is no way I can know, without doubt, what is true, so I have to make a faith-based choice.If there was a God, and he set up a world with free will, it follows that he would allow us the choice of belief. I think me and you are good examples. You choose not to believe in God, I choose to believe. Not only that, I've chosen to consecrate my life to God's will. Would you believe it? He's come alive! I've never felt the power of God so strong in my life. I still have to deal with life, but now I have power over sin, over evil thoughts. God is giving me divine grace. I have peace, I'm happy. I have hope. I sure believe it's real.
Imagine me adding to this experience
1. Bible credibility
2. Origins questions/reasoning
3. Witness by others.
There are thousands and thousands of ancient copies of the gospels. Not only that, they are quoted by later scholars dated within the next few centuries. Compared to Homer's Iliad (less than 700), it's very credible. Still doesn't make it true, but I think it's reasonable to believe it.
How did life begin? What's the meaning of life? Why do we exist?
I've examined a lot of evidence; I choose God as the answer.
Other people have had the same types of experiences, miracles, healings, victories, etc. It helps to verify what I already believe.
I feel as though I'm not believing anything unreasonable. Contrarily, I think it's the most reasonable. If I turn out to be wrong, at least I'll be satisfied that I did all I thought I ought to do.
I know you have your reasons for what you believe, and you're free to choose as you will. I hope you don't miss out on all that life has to offer you. Be happy
Marty wrote: "Stuart - thanks for the response. I've questioned my faith, no doubt. It's grown stronger than ever. I'm not fooled by hypocrites, of course there will be a lot of hypocrites. I'm not fooled by the..."You seem like a good person, Marty, and I wish you well.
I don't (usually) discuss personal faith on an individual level unless I'm asked to. So with you, I won't. Please take my discussions here on a general basis and make of them what you will.
I only discuss on a personal basis if you are, for example, an obnoxious, sanctimonious egotist and bully who is not overly bright and yells at people in CAPITALS and LOLs at them and thinks they were still writing the Bibles during the Norman invasion of England.
Which you are not.
But at least you are learning what sort of Christian not to be.
Satan loves Christians like that.
They do his work for him.
Dating extant biblical manuscripts for grown-ups:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblica...
Dating when they MAY have been written:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_...
Good hard, independently verifiable, faith-free evidence (not absolute proof necessarily) that a single one of them was inspired, dictated, or written by the finger of the mythological Jewish deity Yahweh:
Zero ....
https://www.google.com.au/search?rlz=...
You can do other searches.
Millions of results.
Trillions of words.
Not one tiny scrap of good hard evidence,
Mostly it comes down to "The Bibles are so wonderful, they MUST be the Word of God".
Take the word MUST out of Christianity and the walls come tumbling down very quickly.
Just for fun:Here's why Christianity is heading for extinction in advanced cultures.
Not because we Atheists are deliberately rejecting a "God" we know to exist, so we can indulge in all manner of sin.
It's because we've been fed embarrassingly fantastical nonsense passed off as the "Word of God".
And promised Heaven if we swallow it ... and cough up our tithes and independence of mind.
And promise Hell if we dare to point out that it's just a bunch of mythology and propaganda and there is not a shred of anything to back up the magical bits.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...
Mr Maxwell, inter alia, assures us - and offer not a thing more than his reading of the Genesis creation mythology - that the mythological Jewish deity Yahweh, created humans as immortals.
And even after that unfortunate incident involving our Mother Eve and the Talking Serpent (Satan speaking ventriloquially) humans were still living to be nearly 1,000 years of age.
Mr Maxwell offers this as fact.
This is what Christians from Bible class put up against evidence-based, peer-reviewed science.
But they never really do, It seems to me, they never discuss the "scripture" they claim is true. They would rather discuss the science they say is false.
This mythologist recognises that Mr Maxwell has nothing more than biblical mythology and "faith" behind him.
I know very little of science, so I go and look to see what I can find
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_ex...
(Christians are perfectly free to contribute to the knowledge base of Wikipedia if they find anything incorrect.)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetec...
https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/researchers-i...
Yes, I understand the first human was created from mud by Yahweh in 4004 BCE - but we have to let that go when we're dealing with reality.
Maxwell's biblical claim of immortality followed by 1,000 year-old humans, is false.
No I'm not going to review the science.
I'm a mythologist.
If you are a good Christian, stay with "scripture" and YOU back up the myths with independently verifiable facts.
Just like the scientists did with their facts.
They didn't try to pick holes in your "scripture" to prove their science.
Stuart wrote: "Here's why Christianity is heading for extinction in advanced cultures...."My response: You have joined a LONG LIST of other pseudo-intellectuals who have predicted the demise of believers in Christ.
Like all the others, you will be proven wrong over time.
Stuart wrote: "I've read a lot. I've analysed a lot. Christianity is a fraud..."Stuart is the FRAUD!
He LIES and claims to have "read a lot"... but he CANNOT even NAME ONE BOOK from Christian authors (which he CLAIMS to have read).
He CANNOT list one example of error that he has refuted from ONE of these books that he CLAIMS to have read.
Stuart is the FRAUD!
Stuart - it may be hard to find proof for God writing the biblical books, but its not hard to read about Jesus and his near-ridiculous claims to be the actual SON of GOD, unless he was, of course. Thousands and thousands of ancient copies of this real guy who made such a claim. This guy was also very logical, a great moral teacher at least, but claimed equality with God. He was willing to die for it as well. Could he have been a liar? Could he have been crazy? Obviously he was very popular, stories of feeding the 5000, etc. Could the gospels be so popular if they weren't historically accurate? Did Jesus live, did he die? If so, why did he say the things he did? If he really was the son of God, then that's enough proof for the Bible for me, as Jesus referenced OT scriptures all throughout his ministry.
Stuart - you said Satan loves Christians like "that". Do you believe Satan exists? You know he's a bible character.
Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "I've read a lot. I've analysed a lot. Christianity is a fraud..."Stuart is the FRAUD!
He LIES and claims to have "read a lot"... but he CANNOT even NAME ONE BOOK from Christia..."
Robert, pal, you aren't helping any at all.
Marty wrote: "Robert, pal, you aren't helping any at all..."Thanks for your opinion.
Hang on, Marty. Robert is simply responding to the tsunami of rudeness and blasphemy coming from the provocative-but-unoriginal Stuart. Stuart is not only lacking in manners, but will not engage anything other than his immense bigotry and ego. Showing love is not merely humanistic. God's love contains the important hatred of sin. Sin must be confronted, and Robert has every right to fight back in defense of his Savior.
Did Jesus "gently" confront the money changers in the temple???
Wade wrote: "Hang on, Marty. Robert is simply responding to the tsunami of rudeness and blasphemy coming from the provocative-but-unoriginal Stuart. Stuart is not only lacking in manners, but will not engage an..."Thanks Wade!
Wade wrote: "Hang on, Marty. Robert is simply responding to the tsunami of rudeness and blasphemy coming from the provocative-but-unoriginal Stuart. Stuart is not only lacking in manners, but will not engage an..."I don't disagree, Mr. Wade. However, Jesus demonstrated WHY they were wrong and didn't just "sling mud" and I think that unless Mr. Robert demonstrates how "Stuart is the FRAUD" is true, it's reduced to mud-slinging. I don't think it's useful, particularly repeating it over and over. Let's stay on point. Who are we debating? Mr. Stuart. What's the point of debate? To convince Mr. Stuart? Or to prove that Mr. Stuart is wrong to the others who already agree with me?
I'd like to think that we can have a proper debate with anyone, regardless of their views. If Mr. Stuart slings mud (he hasn't with me so far), are we compelled to do it also?
Mr. Robert is right though, it's just my opinion.
I appreciate your mannerly tone, Marty. I applaud you for that. I also suggest you go through some of the strings where Stuart has said many incredibly and blasphemous things. His childish attempt at being provocative does NOT lend itself to productive discussions. This is anti-intellectual, to be sure.Many Christians mistakenly feel that being "loving" is taking a bunch of bunk from worldly people who hate God. I do not. You must remember that "love" from God's perspective is two-fold: (1) it is "agape" or sacrificial love. And (2) God hates and judges sin. There comes a point where skeptics do not wish to engage in adult conversations. Rather, they just enjoy taking pot-shots at their creator. Try as I may, I cannot find anywhere in the bible where a Christian must be weak. Meek in spirit - yes. That means that your godship and ego are not in the way of your relationship with God. But weak? Nope. I'm not seeing it.
Error must be confronted with truth. Or rather, The Truth - Jesus Christ. Stuart is like all of us - our sin separates us from God. Only Jesus can forgive sin because he took its full punishment. He is the only way.
Marty wrote: " I think that unless Mr. Robert demonstrates how "Stuart is the FRAUD" is true, it's reduced to mud-slinging..."My response: Perhaps you should READ what I wrote, in the very post where I called him a fraud.
I have repeatedly asked Stuart to provide evidence to support his claims... he refuses.
Allow me to re-post my previous post (which you may not have read)...
____________________
He LIES and claims to have "read a lot"... but he CANNOT even NAME ONE BOOK from Christian authors (which he CLAIMS to have read).
He CANNOT list one example of error that he has refuted from ONE of these books that he CLAIMS to have read.
Marty wrote: "I'd like to think that we can have a proper debate with anyone, regardless of their views..."My response: God says it is IMPOSSIBLE for the unsaved to comprehend spiritual truth.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - "But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him ; and he is incapable of understanding them , because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters ]."
Wade wrote: "Error must be confronted with truth. Or rather, The Truth - Jesus Christ. Stuart is like all of us - our sin separates us from God. Only Jesus can forgive sin because he took its full punishment. He is the only way...."Well said Wade.
Robert wrote: "Marty wrote: " I think that unless Mr. Robert demonstrates how "Stuart is the FRAUD" is true, it's reduced to mud-slinging..."My response: Perhaps you should READ what I wrote, in the very post w..."
Here's why Christianity is heading for extinction in advanced cultures.
Not because we Atheists are deliberately rejecting a "God" we know to exist, so we can indulge in all manner of sin.
It's because we've been fed embarrassingly fantastical nonsense passed off as the "Word of God".
And promised Heaven if we swallow it ... and cough up our tithes and independence of mind.
And promise Hell if we dare to point out that it's just a bunch of mythology and propaganda and there is not a shred of anything to back up the magical bits.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...
Mr Maxwell, inter alia, assures us - and offer not a thing more than his reading of the Genesis creation mythology - that the mythological Jewish deity Yahweh, created humans as immortals.
And even after that unfortunate incident involving our Mother Eve and the Talking Serpent (Satan speaking ventriloquially) humans were still living to be nearly 1,000 years of age.
Mr Maxwell offers this as fact.
This is what Christians from Bible class put up against evidence-based, peer-reviewed science.
But they never really do, It seems to me, they never discuss the "scripture" they claim is true. They would rather discuss the science they say is false.
This mythologist recognises that Mr Maxwell has nothing more than biblical mythology and "faith" behind him.
I know very little of science, so I go and look to see what I can find
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_ex...
(Christians are perfectly free to contribute to the knowledge base of Wikipedia if they find anything incorrect.)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetec...
https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/researchers-i...
Yes, I understand the first human was created from mud by Yahweh in 4004 BCE - but we have to let that go when we're dealing with reality.
Maxwell's biblical claim of immortality followed by 1,000 year-old humans, is false.
No I'm not going to review the science.
I'm a mythologist.
If you are a good Christian, stay with "scripture" and YOU back up the myths with independently verifiable facts.
Just like the scientists did with their facts.
They didn't try to pick holes in your "scripture" to prove their science.
Stuart ... you should put down the bottle when posting ridiculous diatribes like this. It's embarrassing. I pray you'll repent and turn to Christ for your salvation. He is the only way.
Stuart wrote: "Here's why Christianity is heading for extinction in advanced cultures. ..."I see you STILL have not offered ANY evidence to support your DISHONEST and FALSE claims.
Tell us ONE Christian book that you have ACTUALLY read (like you CLAIM). Then tell us ONE fact that you have successfully refuted.
Or, is it as it appears? Are you just LYING when you CLAIM to have read MANY Christian books?
Wade wrote: "Stuart ... you should put down the bottle when posting ridiculous diatribes like this. It's embarrassing. I pray you'll repent and turn to Christ for your salvation. He is the only way."Amen Wade!
Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "Here's why Christianity is heading for extinction in advanced cultures. ..."I see you STILL have not offered ANY evidence to support your DISHONEST and FALSE claims.
Tell us ONE C..."
Your Bible and You
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...
Mr Maxwell, inter alia, assures us - and offer not a thing more than his reading of the Genesis creation mythology - that the mythological Jewish deity Yahweh, created humans as immortals.
And even after that unfortunate incident involving our Mother Eve and the Talking Serpent (Satan speaking ventriloquially) humans were still living to be nearly 1,000 years of age.
Mr Maxwell offers this as fact.
This is what Christians from Bible class put up against evidence-based, peer-reviewed science.
But they never really do, It seems to me, they never discuss the "scripture" they claim is true. They would rather discuss the science they say is false.
This mythologist recognises that Mr Maxwell has nothing more than biblical mythology and "faith" behind him.
I know very little of science, so I go and look to see what I can find
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_ex...
(Christians are perfectly free to contribute to the knowledge base of Wikipedia if they find anything incorrect.)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetec...
https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/researchers-i...
Yes, I understand the first human was created from mud by Yahweh in 4004 BCE - but we have to let that go when we're dealing with reality.
Maxwell's biblical claim of immortality followed by 1,000 year-old humans, is false.
No I'm not going to review the science.
I'm a mythologist.
If you are a good Christian, stay with "scripture" and YOU back up the myths with independently verifiable facts.
Just like the scientists did with their facts.
They didn't try to pick holes in your "scripture" to prove their science.
reply | edit | delete | flag
Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "Here's why Christianity is heading for extinction in advanced cultures. ..."I see you STILL have not offered ANY evidence to support your DISHONEST and FALSE claims.
Tell us ONE C..."
Robert has referred me to 4 books.
I challenged him (as I now do with all others) to copy and past a single sentence from any of the books that either the writings - or Jesus - came, in any way, from Yahweh.
Of course he couldn't.
So I did have a look at his books.
And, as I expected, none of the authors even makes the claim that they can demonstrate that the biblical writings and/or Jesus came from the Jewish deity Yahweh.
McDowell is a typical morass and smokescreen. I agree with the reviewer who wrote:
Jul 23, 2011Denise rated it did not like it · review of another edition
Shelves: religion-myth-superstition, worst
Best thing I can say is that Mr. McDowell has given an honest effort in gathering all the information he feels justifies his beliefs. The title of the book is misleading. Despite the impressive number of quotes and apologetics, evidence is lacking. This book suffers profusely from circular reasoning, "facts" with no support, and sources that don't matter. I love C.S. Lewis too, that doesn't mean his opinion carries any weight.
Strobel gives us lots of question marks and asks us to give our own verdict. He does not give us the TRUTHS that Robert said he would, but we do get:
Evangelism Special! Read one yourself, give one to a seeking friend. Is there credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God? Retracing his own spiritual journey from atheism to faith, Lee Strobel, former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, cross-examines a dozen experts with doctorates from schools like Cambridge, Princeton, and Brandeis who are recognized authorities in their own fields. Strobel challenges them with questions like-- How reliable is the New Testament? Does evidence exist for Jesus outside the Bible? Is there any reason to believe the resurrection was an actual event? Strobel's tough, point-blank questions make this remarkable book read like a captivating, fast-paced novel. But it's not fiction. It's a riveting quest for the truth about history's most compelling figure. What will your verdict be in The Case for Christ?
I put it that not one Christian who makes the claims that the biblical writings and Jesus came from the - for me mythological - Jewish deity Yahweh has a shred of independently verifiable evidence to back the claims.
Robert wrote: "Stuart wrote: "Here's why Christianity is heading for extinction in advanced cultures. ..."I see you STILL have not offered ANY evidence to support your DISHONEST and FALSE claims.
Tell us ONE C..."
I've played your childish "I asked you first game".
Even though I asked you well in advance of your childish ploy, to make a simple demonstration.
"I challenged him (as I now do with all others) to copy and past a single sentence from any of the books that either the writings - or Jesus - came, in any way, from Yahweh.
You have dodged and dodged.
Including the 1,600 years of biblical scripture-writing.
I put it to you that you are dishonest and not fit to call yourself a Christian.
You have NO idea what I have read or not read - yet do declare that you do.
To satisfy your childish rants, I reviewed the 2 books you put us as "evidence".
They were the first things I posted here.
I reviewed Your Bible and You
All of these books are evidence-free nonsense.
Nothing but the titles of these books has changed since I first started reading them.
Christian's, I have found, employ a number of standard tricks to avoid admitting that they do not have a shred of anything outside the biblical writings to back up their claims that the biblical writings are the word of the Jewish deity Yahweh; that Jesus was fathered by the Jewish deity Yahweh (or the Holy Ghost), and numerous other claims.One of the most common is to refer the questioner to books.
The inference is that the books will provide the independently verifiable proofs.
The Christian knows fine well they don't.
But it hopefully mires the questioner down in the morass and smokescreens that Christians put up to avoid simple, honest answers to very simple questions.
Marty wrote: "Stuart - you said Satan loves Christians like "that". Do you believe Satan exists? You know he's a bible character."No ...
"Satan" is part of the make-believe.
At least the fallen-angel, horns and tail character Christians use to frighten each other, is make-believe.
The duality notion is not part of Jewish monotheism. It may have come back from Babylon with returning Jews.
Here is a Jewish perspective (it's their culture Christianity has distorted):
http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-...
And a Christian:
http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy...
While the scary guy is just more Christian make-believe, there is a small school of thought that the "Satan" character that tempted Jesus was simply a Jewish priest testing Jesus' knowledge and wisdom (see Thiering, Jesus the Man)
Of course this doesn't have the same spine-tingling appeal to Sunday-schoolers.
Much of the magical stuff in Christianity has mundane reality behind it.
But why let reality get in the way of a good belief ...?
Especially when people will pay good money for the belief.
Wade wrote: "Stuart ... you should put down the bottle when posting ridiculous diatribes like this. It's embarrassing. I pray you'll repent and turn to Christ for your salvation. He is the only way.""The bottle" ....
I understand that you are not very bright.
But you and Robert both need to have a long talk with Jesus about your personalities.
You put people off Christianity.
You are doing Satan's work.
That God for Christians like Marty.
Marty wrote: "Wade wrote: "Hang on, Marty. Robert is simply responding to the tsunami of rudeness and blasphemy coming from the provocative-but-unoriginal Stuart. Stuart is not only lacking in manners, but will ..."There are a number of standard, cheap ploys Christians use to avoid admitting they have not a shred of evidence that a single biblical verse, or Jesus, came from the mythological Jewish deity, Yahweh.
One is to claim insult.
The intention, as with most of them, is to turn the attention away from the lack of evidence for the biblical writings and Jesus.
You may have noticed the studious avoidance of most of my questions.
And of my refusal to get drawn too far into the diversion tricks.
Perhaps if you ask Robert about his claim for 1,600 years of biblical scripture-writing ...?
The books he tried to fob me off onto certainly didn't answer the simple questions I posed.
Can you demonstrate that either the writings or Jesus came from Yahweh
...?
Simple.
Straightforward.
Non-blasphemous.
Deserve an honest answer.
Stuart wrote: "McDowell is a typical morass and smokescreen. I agree with the reviewer who wrote:...."My response: LOL! ROFL! I asked you to tell us one of the books you HAVE READ , and the best you can do is regurgitate someone else's review of a book that you HAVE NOT READ !
So much for honesty!
Stuart wrote: "One of the most common is to refer the questioner to books...."My response: YOUI were the one who FALSELY claimed to HAVE READ MANY of these such books. I referred you to some examples.
I asked you to QUOTE an author that YOU HAVE READ and tell us what you disagreed with and what FACTS you used to refute it.
Obviously you HAVE NOT READ any and the best you can do is to quote some other malcontents review.
So much for honesty.
So, to summarize: Robert: "Stuart is a FRAUD!" [I don't regard Stuart's character, I regard his arguments. Character credibility only regards situations where he is arguing from authority or claiming to be a witness, but he's not. His arguments may be valid regardless of his character.]
Stuart: "Demonstrate that writings or Jesus came from Yahweh." [Burden of proof lies with the Christian as they are making the assertion.]
Seems as if we're talking in a loop.
Stuart - Did you see my earlier post?
Marty:
"Stuart - it may be hard to find proof for God writing the biblical books, but its not hard to read about Jesus and his near-ridiculous claims to be the actual SON of GOD, unless he was, of course. Thousands and thousands of ancient copies of this real guy who made such a claim. This guy was also very logical, a great moral teacher at least, but claimed equality with God. He was willing to die for it as well. Could he have been a liar? Could he have been crazy? Obviously he was very popular, stories of feeding the 5000, etc. Could the gospels be so popular if they weren't historically accurate? Did Jesus live, did he die? If so, why did he say the things he did?
If he really was the son of God, then that's enough proof for the Bible for me, as Jesus referenced OT scriptures all throughout his ministry. "
I'd like to hear your response. Obviously Jesus doesn't PROVE that Yahweh is real, but maybe he shows that it's more likely than not. Your thoughts?
Stuart - if you think something is more reasonable than not (51% - 49%), is that enough to believe it? See the Craig-Scharp debate, Feb 2016. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFu_4...
Personally I don't simply want proof of a God or book - I want the logic and morality and meaning that comes from it. A universe with God and Jesus would be horrifying. A big slave trading brothel of debauchery and violence.
@ MartyI'd like to hear your response. Obviously Jesus doesn't PROVE that Yahweh is real, but maybe he shows that it's more likely than not. Your thoughts?
No one offers a shred of independently verifiable evidence that there ever was an historical character we know as "Jesus".
The only thing we have is the cult propaganda and a very few historical references that people were following the cult.
That's it.
The belief that he was fathered by the mythological Jewish deity Yahweh is just make-believe.
I do challenge you.
Will you stand up ...?
Christian's, I have found, employ a number of standard tricks to avoid admitting that they do not have a shred of anything outside the biblical writings to back up their claims that the biblical writings are the word of the Jewish deity Yahweh; that Jesus was fathered by the Jewish deity Yahweh (or the Holy Ghost), and numerous other claims.
One of the most common is to refer the questioner to books.
The inference is that the books will provide the independently verifiable proofs.
The Christian knows fine well they don't.
But it hopefully mires the questioner down in the morass and smokescreens that Christians put up to avoid simple, honest answers to very simple questions.
Robert has referred me to 4 books.
I challenged him (as I now do with all others) to copy and past a single sentence from any of the books that either the writings - or Jesus - came, in any way, from Yahweh.
Of course he couldn't.
So I did have a look at his books.
And, as I expected, none of the authors even makes the claim that they can demonstrate that the biblical writings and/or Jesus came from the Jewish deity Yahweh.
McDowell is a typical morass and smokescreen. I agree with the reviewer who wrote:
Jul 23, 2011Denise rated it did not like it · review of another edition
Shelves: religion-myth-superstition, worst
Best thing I can say is that Mr. McDowell has given an honest effort in gathering all the information he feels justifies his beliefs. The title of the book is misleading. Despite the impressive number of quotes and apologetics, evidence is lacking. This book suffers profusely from circular reasoning, "facts" with no support, and sources that don't matter. I love C.S. Lewis too, that doesn't mean his opinion carries any weight.
Strobel gives us lots of question marks and asks us to give our own verdict. He does not give us the TRUTHS that Robert said he would, but we do get:
Evangelism Special! Read one yourself, give one to a seeking friend. Is there credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God? Retracing his own spiritual journey from atheism to faith, Lee Strobel, former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, cross-examines a dozen experts with doctorates from schools like Cambridge, Princeton, and Brandeis who are recognized authorities in their own fields. Strobel challenges them with questions like-- How reliable is the New Testament? Does evidence exist for Jesus outside the Bible? Is there any reason to believe the resurrection was an actual event? Strobel's tough, point-blank questions make this remarkable book read like a captivating, fast-paced novel. But it's not fiction. It's a riveting quest for the truth about history's most compelling figure. What will your verdict be in The Case for Christ?
I put it that not one Christian who makes the claims that the biblical writings and Jesus came from the - for me mythological - Jewish deity Yahweh has a shred of independently verifiable evidence to back the claims.
But Robert could post a sentence to the contrary.
And no, I'm not going to fall for the trick of refuting every claim in every book.
I've simply asked for two very simple proofs. Keep the focus directly and honestly on the two simple proofs.
Or just one ....