Children's Books discussion

Hello group members...
Just wanted to jump in and let you all know that I made a few changes to the format of our members area. I saw a lot of different conversations going on about similar things so I organized them into folders. I tried to keep it simple and in some ways I like it, though other ways not so much.

Please take a look and let Abigail & I know what you think. We can change things back if it's universally disapproved or we can tweak things to get it just right for all of us. Also if you see anything miscategorized or can think of better labels, let us know.

Thanks!

I like the new organization. It's easier for my overloaded mom brain to handle.

Abigail, I've supported how you've handled this situation so far and given all the postings I support what you've now proposed. I think you're handling things as well as they can be, taking into account what's good for the group and all its members. Thanks for all the work Abigail, sarafem, Chandra, and other contributing members!

Martyn, I love authors. They're my personal super stars. I also love authors here at Goodreads. However, I think authors who participate fully at the site and who don't overly promote their books actually acquire more new readers here. That's been my experience and the experiences of author friends I have here.

Martyn, Well, that's true about authors and time to read. Ditto for many students. But most authors write because they've enjoyed reading and they can always enter old favorites, some books from childhood, etc. Having 0 books and many friends often isn't as effective at this site, although I've seen that configuration work for some authors. Whatever works for each member is fine, but spamming groups and not participating otherwise doesn't win many readers. I agree about the giveaway program: I love it, although I like to think authors can gain new readers without participating in that way, or at least not having to give away a great number of books, but thanks for contributing so many books.

Sorry, Abigail and all, probably not the thread to keep going on like this.

I am guilty. I put my book on this site by accident. I thought the readers would want the best book. A new classic. I did not know at the time it was a no-no. I have not done it again and I am very respectful of this site. I always will be. The problem I do have though, some one does pick a book and promote it through discussion. It may be a book they remember through child hood. It may be a book that got 10 million dollars in advertising back then. The book is being promoted through discussion. This site is for small authors that are trying to grow and be known in a tough, tough industry. The reason some books are being discussed is because they were promoted back then. This is a site for readers to talk about what they liked, and may like for their children. How many readers have bought a new book from or through the author? You may actually talk to the author. How many people got to talk to one back then? What is wrong with talking about the book you have chosen, then bring up one better.

Chandra, Thanks for reiterating the guidelines. I appreciate the moderators' commitment to keeping this group a pleasant and fascinating places to have discussions about children's books. Thank you!

See this is good. We have had a discussion where we did not have one. It actually was other than a book. Remember this country was founded on free speech and the right to write. I have read many of the discussion on children books. Just like we have new children, we need to have new books for them to read. New ones to go with the old ones. I do see a problem here though. If my good friend who is an expert in Childhood Development, writes in liking my book, it will be accepted. Or will it? If she talks about a subject and then says there is a new book about that. Will it be accepted? I wrote an article making sure that the readers knew I made one mistake. What came back was combative, and very unprofessional. I do not mean to single you out Chandra. Best wishes to everyone and you to Chandra. It really hope you are well.

You are are missing the point. Do not ask for a poster of any kind. People are telling you what books they like. They are promoting that book. How does an author get involved and then say my book may fit that subject without promotion. It is a fine line. I said I made a mistake. Chandra answer was combative and unprofessional. She said some thing close to that herself. I really think you need to exclude author's from this thread. Not that they can not talk, but it is tough call all the way. There is a difference. I will leave this now. I think you both are probably very young. That is good. You have the power. Do you have the knowledge? Keep an open mind and learn. Best wishes to you always. I really mean that. Michael John McCann

Michael John, I'm finding your post to be very confusing (or confused, I'm having a hard time telling which.)
"We have had a discussion where we did not have one. It actually was other than a book."
What on earth does that mean???
I have to say, the quality of the writing in your posts is in direct opposition to the marketing you are trying to do for your books on GR.

You said in an earlier post: "This site is for small authors that are trying to grow and be known in a tough, tough industry."
This site is definitely NOT an author promotional tool - that is what your personal and publisher's websites are for.
GoodReads is for READERS
Authors who realize this and participate as READERS find that they have much better response from other readers (and consequently better sales) than authors who mistakenly think that this site is just another way for them to advertise.
/soapbox

Get off your soap/box.

Michael John and other authors, You might find it helpful to review the Goodreads author guidelines and other material provided at the GR author program:

http://www.goodreads.com/author/guide...

Edit: Especially note the last section named joining groups.

I love you all. It is now clear what your rules and regulations are. That is good. What we have done here is to make sure every one knows the rules. It will be better for the site. I made you think. Answer people with real answers. We are all on the soap box. My work is done here. Best wishes always and some day we will meet again on the avenue.
Michael John McCann
Mayor of PurpleUmpkin

You're welcome. = )
I find it interesting that he didn't have anything to actually respond to my comments and his patronizing tone when he responded to yours reflects poorly on him.
As far as I'm concerned, someone who writes such garbled posts is unimpressive; that they are an author means I certainly won't be reading their book (or exposing my kids to it.)

As a Goodreads author, I wholeheartedly support Chandra and Abigail in their efforts to create a group where readers can discuss children's books without the intrusion of author "advertising." There are plenty of groups out there where authors are invited to share their news, books, reviews, websites, woes and joys. It is important that Goodreads authors understand the function and purpose of each group and conduct themselves appropriately and respectfully. Thank you, Chandra, Abigail, and Sarafem, for providing an opportunity for readers to dialogue about the delightful world of children's literature.

Abigail and Chandra, I think you are doing a great job moderating. The guidelines are clear (once one has read them!) and you are enforcing them fairly. Goodreads offers plenty of forums for discussions of every type and for authors to promote their works.

For authors who don't have time or interest to create a discussion group for their books, instead of joining groups and posting in them, I recommend putting a copy or two on the "giveaways" page (you can find it under the "explore" dropdown menu by selecting "books"); that page is for any variety of book and is looked over by over a thousand people. Giving away the book can also help you get more reviews.

Rather than feeling regretful, Abigail, you should feel happy that it has never been necessary before! You and most of the members do a great job keeping the group friendly, courteous, lively, and on topic.

I know that must have been difficult, Abigail, but know that most (if not all) of us support your decisions as moderator. I second Miriam -- you do a great job keeping this group friendly and lively! This group is one of my favorite things about Goodreads -- keep up the great work :)

Abigail,

You and the other mods have always been clear. You have nothing to apologize for at all. In fact, thank you for taking care of the situation and for informing group members.

I do enjoy lurking in this group and hope to participate more at some point. It's a terrific group.

Thank you, Abigail! I am honored and delighted to be on board and look forward to many fun and/or thoughtful discussions with all of you (and, of course, to finding lots of fabulous new books to read)
:-)

Oh, yay! Welcome, Kathryn! What a wonderful trio of mods this group has!

If authors don't get the message, then they have only themselves to blame if you end up banning author promotion altogether. This might sound harsh, but I think that you have been more than patient and the rules and regulations are clearly spelled out (even new GR members like myself have no problem or should have no problem understanding them).

No, I agree with you. I know how dearly authors wish to promote their work--it is a long battle to get published and then most authors have to do a good deal of marketing/promotion on their own--especially in this economy! Most of the time, authors/illustrators are just so darn excited to finally have their books published they want to shout it from the rooftops and I'm sure many of us have found some great reads thanks to the appropriately categorized postings. But authors/illustrators need to be respectful of the rules of the group and if they are not (after a gentle but pointed warning!) then they lose their membership.

Personally, I don't think it's too harsh.

Someone making a mistake like that once, that's annoying, but not a problem.

Someone making that mistake, getting a specific helpful message letting them know what they did wrong, and then doing it again? That sounds deliberate to me and I'm ok with deleting someone who deliberately breaks such a specific rule.

Just my $.02 though.

This is a common problem in some other groups I'm in also. Some authors are shameless and just do their own thing. The moderators in those groups have just deleted the posts by those authors who don't post in the correct area. It's a pain for readers to have to sift through their self-promotion when that's not what they're after. Some readers like to see various authors new books and that's just fine but if it's not posted in the right area I think they should be deleted. If they continue they should be blocked from the group IMO :) So I don't think it's too harsh.

Well, I guess that punishing all authors because some don't play by the rules is unfair, but it is also not exactly fair that Abigail and the other monitors have to sift through posts and comments trying to figure out who's legit and who isn't. If I were you, Abigail, I would maybe give it a month or two (or three), and, if after said time there is still a problem with illegitimate author self promotion, throw the gauntlet (with that I mean, unilaterally state that any further illegitimate self promotion will cause the former to be banned altogether).

Abigail/Mods, I know you've gotten annoyed and I don't blame you one bit.

Most of what's said above I agree with,

Authors who post where they should and who participate in the group as readers, I personally love having here.

If a new member who's an author makes one error, I think they deserve a warning because many members don't read what they should in groups before they start posting. After one warning, banning them from the group seems fair to me, if they violate the group rules. Punishing authors who post by the rules doesn't seem fair.

I'm sorry that the mods have to deal with this though, but banning author promotions would not stop certain authors from posting. Look at all the spam that's posted in even Goodreads' official groups.

Is there any way members can help? Does flagging help or would you (mods) just rather warn/delete yourselves?

I agree that we shouldn't ban all author promotion at this point. (Of course, as a new mod, I haven't had all the headaches that Abigail and Chandra have over the issue yet!) With the publishing industry in such trouble along with the rest of the economy, I think it's especially important for new authors to use every avenue they can to promote their work, provided they do so properly.

That said, maybe we need to look at some of the posts as "buyer beware" to take some responsibility off the mods--check around at the overall reviews for a book if someone suddenly launches into an overwhelmingly glowing review of a book you've never heard of and that no one else seems to post about. It's also easy to click on someone's name and see if they are the author of the book they are promoting.

Kathryn wrote: "That said, maybe we need to look at some of the posts as "buyer beware" to take some responsibility off the mods--check around at the overall reviews for a book if someone suddenly launches into an overwhelmingly glowing review of a book you've never heard of and that no one else seems to post about. It's also easy to click on someone's name and see if they are the author of the book they are promoting. "

Kathryn, Sounds good, but then what would we do about it to help you, Chandra, and Abigail?

Well, if any of us find a post that seems to be author self promotion (in the wrong area), we could let the moderators know by posting a private message to them. I'm not sure wether flagging a review or a comment is such a good idea. I always thought that that was a last resort (to report comments that might be considered hateful or otherwise unacceptable), but, as I am still learning the ropes here, I could very well be wrong.

Thanks, Lisa :-) Perhaps a better question for Abigail and Chandra since I'm so new to this...

I'll add that it's completely counterproductive to over-promote one's books. Goodreaders like reader participants. If some happen to be authors and they're fully participating as readers, then their mentions of their books are often welcomed. If they spam, most Goodreads members will go out of their way to not read that author's work.

Abigail, Whatever you decide to do in the long run is fine with me.

Lisa wrote: "Whatever you decide to do in the long run is fine with me..."

I agree! I don't mind author promotions in the folder because then I can easily and quickly read through them or just ignore them, if I choose. If the folder were to completely go away, I also wouldn't be that disappointed. They just aren't usually all that relevant to anything we discuss here.

I was just noticing that a GR author has again promoted a book in a folder other than the author's folder. And, I was wondering if maybe we could have separate thematic folders for GR authors as well. This way, if an author wanted to promote his/her book on Valentine's Day, Christmas etc., there would be a specific space for it (and the author would not feel the need to promote the book in one of the thematic discussion folders). Just a thought.

I don't want to seem unkind either, but honestly, if authors do not get the message (within a certain amount of time, like an ultimatum), maybe something more radical does need to be done. Also, I would like to remind authors that I am far more willing to buy and read a new book that has been self promoted in the appropriate thread or folder. A book self promoted in the wrong folder, especially if it is not the first time this has occurred will make very reluctant to even consider buying or reading the book.

I agree, Gundula!

I agree too. I can't think of anything more Abigail could have done, and I can't think of how she could have been nicer about the way she's done it. It's a shame though.

I know how much authors want to share their labors of love with others and how important it is for authors to self-promote so it is with a heavy heart that I second what Chandra and Abigail have so eloquently and justly stated. It was a challenging decision for us but one that will, we hope, strengthen the group as a whole. We appreciate all the members who have shared their ideas on this topic earlier in the thread, too.

I am a group member and an author and I completely agree with your decision and have no problems with it. I liked having a special folder where I could post links to my books, but I absolutely hated to see people spam all over other discussion threads.I do not know if getting rid of the folder will solve the spamming problem, but it is worth a try.
Ultimately, I come here to talk about children's books and to find people who love children's books, there are plenty of other groups where authors can self-promote.

Thank you so much for your understanding, Svetlana, and your continued (valued!) contributions to our group :-) Best of luck with your books!!!

Abigail wrote: "Thanks for posting, Svetlana! I'm glad that the decision hasn't upset you, as you're one of our favorite members! Who else is constantly pushing the Barefoot Books titles, which I too love? ;)"

I have just received Arthur of Albion by Barefoot Books, I am sooooo in love thit it. Thanks, Abigail, and everyone else.

Also, to let author members (of all Goodreads groups) know, that when I notice an active member and enjoy their posts, I often go check out their profile page. If they're author member pages, I then see the books they've written/illustrated, and I do pay attention to their books. So, being an active reader and group member here can help other members find and read their books. They don't have to actively self promote, something which is often counterproductive anyway.

Great point, Lisa! :-) I do that, too!

I am an author and am profoundly sorry to have been so intrusive on this site. I am sure it was my comment on the Valentine Books thread that created the current situation.

It was never my intention to promote my book when I wrote the comment. I have been a school psychologist for many years and have worked with hundreds of children in emotional pain. The one thing that I discovered, that many have in common, is their complete disconnect from their hearts. Most have sealed it away to protect themselves.

I wrote a book for young children about how to find their hearts and the gifts that they hold. I am passionate about this subject and I am sure I crossed the line.

When I read that you were discussing books about the heart, I wanted to add the true meaning and beauty of our own hearts. I wanted to start a dialogue on these kinds of books so that I could suggest them to the parents and teachers that are always asking about them. I am sure I was clumsy in my attempt.

It is obvious that my approach and your format are not a match and I will, therefore, not participate any further. I am so grateful for the short time that I have been in the dialogue.

The "Books on Bullying" thread re-awakened my awareness of the extent and constancy of bullying behavior. Subtle and overt forms of bullying and judging are not left on the school grounds but continue far into our adult years.

In sincere appreciation for all that you have given me,

Suzanne

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. I really appreciate them and I love the thoughtful and heart warming discussions I have had.

It was good to know that I didn't trigger all of it and I do completely understand your view on promoting. It would be awful to read through all of the promotion before actually getting to the real issues of the discussion. Believe me I get all of the promotional emails I can handle and it is not fun.

Thank you,

Suzanne

I second what Abigail said so well and hope you'll stay on with us for discussions, Suzanne :-) Thank you for your understanding of our new policy.

Thank you everyone for your comments. I have so enjoyed learning about the books that you are reading. I work with children, their parents and teachers and they are always asking how to find good books on the different topics.

Thanks, Abigail, for directing me to this thread. I apologize to anyone who came upon my post yesterday before I was able to edit it. I was totally oblivious to the problem of self-promotion and am keenly aware of it now! I'm a debut author and mentioning the specifics just seemed like sharing something about myself. I am determined now to fly under the radar. I'm super enthusiastic about MG books and will happily join in the discussion from here on without making any mention of my own. :)

Welcome, Timothy, and thanks so much for joining our group! As an aspiring author myself, I am sympathetic to authors who want to "shout it from the rooftops" when they get a book deal (gosh, I long to know how awesome that will feel!). As the newest co-moderator here with Children's Books, I also know that our long-standing moderators have had to deal with some frustrating author self-promotion issues in the past and that the current policy is designed to give everyone a chance to discuss children's books without feeling like they have to wade through "advertisements" along the way. That said, as an author, I know that talking about our books is so much of "who we are" so I get that sometimes what seems like author "self promotion" is more just "self expression" but thank you for honing your post to match our requirements. I am glad you still feel welcome in the group and look forward to you joining in our discussions! I imagine that those who are interested in your writing will be able to click onto your profile and explore from there :-)

What you wrote looks great! Thanks for nominating us :-)