Children's Books discussion

Are there books that are unworthy of a child's attention?

Do you agree with C.S. Lewis who said:
“I am almost inclined to set it up as a canon that a children's story which is enjoyed only by children is a bad children's story"
and also:
"It is usual to speak in a playfully apologetic tone about one’s adult enjoyment of what are called ‘children’s books’. I think the convention a silly one. No book is really worth reading at the age of ten which is not equally (and often far more) worth reading at the age of fifty – except, of course, books of information. The only imaginative works we ought to grow out of are those which it would have been better not to have read at all.”

Or do you agree with Neil Gaiman, who said, "Fiction has two uses. Firstly, it’s a gateway drug to reading. The drive to know what happens next, to want to turn the page, the need to keep going, even if it’s hard, because someone’s in trouble and you have to know how it’s all going to end … that’s a very real drive. And it forces you to learn new words, to think new thoughts, to keep going. To discover that reading per se is pleasurable. Once you learn that, you’re on the road to reading everything. And reading is key. There were noises made briefly, a few years ago, about the idea that we were living in a post-literate world, in which the ability to make sense out of written words was somehow redundant, but those days are gone: words are more important than they ever were: we navigate the world with words, and as the world slips onto the web, we need to follow, to communicate and to comprehend what we are reading. People who cannot understand each other cannot exchange ideas, cannot communicate, and translation programs only go so far.

The simplest way to make sure that we raise literate children is to teach them to read, and to show them that reading is a pleasurable activity. And that means, at its simplest, finding books that they enjoy, giving them access to those books, and letting them read them.

I don’t think there is such a thing as a bad book for children. Every now and again it becomes fashionable among some adults to point at a subset of children’s books, a genre, perhaps, or an author, and to declare them bad books, books that children should be stopped from reading. I’ve seen it happen over and over; Enid Blyton was declared a bad author, so was RL Stine, so were dozens of others. Comics have been decried as fostering illiteracy.

It’s tosh. It’s snobbery and it’s foolishness. There are no bad authors for children, that children like and want to read and seek out, because every child is different. They can find the stories they need to, and they bring themselves to stories. A hackneyed, worn-out idea isn’t hackneyed and worn out to them. This is the first time the child has encountered it. Do not discourage children from reading because you feel they are reading the wrong thing. Fiction you do not like is a route to other books you may prefer. And not everyone has the same taste as you.

Well-meaning adults can easily destroy a child’s love of reading: stop them reading what they enjoy, or give them worthy-but-dull books that you like, the 21st-century equivalents of Victorian “improving” literature. You’ll wind up with a generation convinced that reading is uncool and worse, unpleasant.

We need our children to get onto the reading ladder: anything that they enjoy reading will move them up, rung by rung, into literacy."

Well, other than Gaiman's presumption that fiction is 'gateway,' which implies it has more appeal and/or is easier than non-fiction, which is *not* true for all children, I theoretically agree with him.

Otoh, I do often post reviews in which I refer to a book as trashy or not worth the paper to print it or even unworthy. I guess I'm torn.

I don't mean to get into a censorship discussion, or to set up straw men of older works that have racist or sexist (etc.) issues. But as we look at popular but questionable books like the Goosebumps books by Stine, how do we evaluate them?

Btw, my question was inspired by this article: https://www.thoughtco.com/childrens-b...

There are some interesting titles there, several of which could generate a whole topic of discussion themselves. (Note that we *will* be discussing Charlotte's Web in the Newbery Club in January and hope to see your comments there! https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...)

Excellent article. And I agree slightly more with Lewis than with Gaiman, though Gaiman makes some very good points.

The books that I think are "not worthy of a child's attention" are primarily self-published books with poor writing, trite stories, and hideous, amateurish illustrations.

Picture books and beginning readers can be well-written and entertaining even for adults, as we note in the picture book club.
Mo Willems' "Piggy and Elephant" and Tedd Arnold's "Fly Guy" books are for beginning readers, and are as hilarious for adults as for kids. Arnold Lobel's "Frog and Toad" books have won awards, they are so good and beautifully written. In fact, all of Arnold Lobel's beginning readers are excellent. There are many more excellent beginning readers, but I'll stop there. A well-written story paired with professional illustrations (whether realistic or cartoon-style) is a good book for both children and adults.

In my experience as a librarian, established publishers put out good books for children; there may be a few self-published books that are good, but the ones I have seen are not.

Books that appeal to children and cause children to read are in my opinion generally good books, even if they are written not all that well or have illustrations that do not appeal (and especially with illustrations, one person's wine can be someone else's vinegar).

Now I do not mean that we should encourage children to only read simplistic tales and yes, if a book is just teeming with bad grammar and such, that should be discussed (but it should not mean, censoring or restricting a book, but discussing it and perhaps using the not so stellar writing and style for language arts practice or error recognition).

For me, the only truly bad books for children are those that deliberately promote violence, racism, intolerance (and of any kind, cultural, gender, ethnic, political, religious etc.). But even then, I would NOT want such books censored or restricted, simply that they need to be discussed with children.

Very interesting question. I am constantly reading with my children and enjoy exploring a wide range of genres as well as traditionally and self published books. There have been multiple occasions where I have read a book, not enjoying it much myself, but my children ask for it over and over again. I am always thrilled to find a book that excites them to read. So in that sense, I do not believe there is a "bad" children's book with the exception of repetitive grammar and formatting errors or hateful morals. All children are unique and will be drawn to different types of books. However, I find a book that is enjoyed by adults as well as children to be a true treasure.

I tend to fall more toward Gaiman's interpretation than Lewis'. As a child I read every Nancy Drew, nearly every Hardy Boys and every Babysitters Club book that was written. I don't have any desire to read those now, but they were the beginning rungs on my ladder to reading. As a parent and especially as a teacher, I have always tried to read aloud to my children/students primarily books that I consider high quality/worthwhile books but allow them to read virtually whatever they self select. Well, that's especially true as a teacher... as a parent, I've read a mix of books and allowed them to select many of the books I've read aloud to them. And some of what I love doesn't interest them at all and vice versa. And each of them is unique in what they enjoy. As a child I read realistic fiction almost exclusively (but prefer it much less as an adult). One of my children only likes realistic fiction. The other two really love fantasy and the oldest also really loves historical fiction. One of them loved Junie B. Jones and Diary of a Wimpy Kid when she was younger...neither of which are series that I personally enjoy. But if we help put books into children's hands that help them learn to love reading, then I think we are doing a good thing...even if they end up loving a genre different from us.

And actually I've simplified my role as a teacher considerably here...I actually feel like I have multiple roles as a teacher of youngish students (3rd grade right now). So I choose to read aloud high quality books that are often a bit more advanced than they could read independently. I have them spend part of their time in class reading books that are at their instructional reading level (books that are a bit challenging but that they can read with support)...some of these books I select for them and some I allow them to select. But for an additional part of each day and for reading outside of school, I allow/encourage them to read what appeals to them. I do "book talks" and share books I love. I have a large classroom library and bring in lots of books from the school and public library. I send a weekly newsletter to parents that also includes recommendations about books their children might enjoy or that they might enjoy reading together. Anyway, I think both "quality" books and lesser quality books can have a place in a child's reading life. And in an adult's life. I know lots of adults (including myself on occasion) that pick up a book that isn't of the highest quality as a means to relax and unwind when life is stressful.

I think there are also children's books that are timeless and as such suitable and enjoyable for both adults and children and those books for children that are more limited in their appeal and their age group, and that is fine, as both types are worthwhile and even needed.

Manybooks wrote: "I think there are also children's books that are timeless and as such suitable and enjoyable for both adults and children and those books for children that are more limited in their appeal and thei..."

Absolutely agree.

Jenny wrote: "Manybooks wrote: "I think there are also children's books that are timeless and as such suitable and enjoyable for both adults and children and those books for children that are more limited in the..."

Yes, and like what Neil Gaiman points out in his article that well meaning but in my opinion generally blinkered parents can easily destroy a child's desire to read by being dictatorial and imposing with regard to reading choices, and in my opinion, a sure fire way to foster illiteracy is for parents of reluctant or a bit unsure readers to be overly demanding and not allow the child to read what he or she likes, what he or she feels comfortable reading (that being said, I think it is equally silly for parents to not allow advanced for their age group reading children to read above and beyond their levels).

It's interesting to me that both these authors seem to think that reading has some sort of end goal, and that in part seems to be about Growing Up and reading Proper Literature. I may just speak for myself, and of course yes, every day i read for communication and information, but when i pick up a book I primarily do so for pleasure. So yes, while I do read books that could well be considered 'quality literature' I also not infrequently read books that perhaps most kindly may be classified as 'pulp'. And I think there's a time and a place for both, and the same goes for children's books. I actually had a similar conversation with my eldest childs' primary school librarian - she called concerned that my son was reading 'pink' aka 'girls' books, and when I told her i had no problem with that, she tried to make a case that they weren't challenging enough for him. Now, this is a child who by the age of ten had read not only the entire LotR, but also the Silmarilion. For fun. No, I don't understand that last one myself, either ;-) At any rate, I'm not concerned about his reading ability, and obviously nor were his teachers, and politely explained to her that while he was reading for pleasure and relaxation I was more than happy for him to borrow whatever he wanted. Which isn't to say I don't throw 'quality' books in his path, or talk to him about why I'm not a fan of some books or types of books, but at the end of the day I feel that children's reading shouldn't be restricted to 'quality literature' any more than mine should; and not just because we need to indulge them with 'bad' books so they dont stop reading before they Grow Up enough to properly appreciate the Quality Literature; but just because reading is for information, and communication, and empathy, relaxation, and broadening our horizons, and for fun, and there's a time and place for everything!

I should add though that I'm certainly no saint, and that there were picture books I "lost" when they were younger, whether because I found them too poorly written, inane, factually incorrect, offensively and overly simplistic, or just plain offensive (ahem, scholastic lego, I'm looking at you on pretty much all counts). I may feel children should have freedom in their reading choices, but I'm not a complete masochist, either ;-)

I'm mostly with Lewis. If I take a children's book I dislike and read it to a child, my emotional interest and commitment will be less than 100%. The child may pick up on this and ask me to read another book. Perhaps that will make the child feel that reading is not worth it, and they won't get as much enjoyment out of reading it.

I have to ask myself why I dislike the book. Is it because it's too young or too old for the intended audience? Am I not liking the way a certain phrase rhymed? Is it the shared values that I disagree with? Is there too much or too little text? Am I judging the quality of the book based on its bindings and publisher? Is it dated? Are the illustrations poor?

I work in childcare. Many of the centres I've been to stock books that aren't appropriate for the intended age group just because they're relevant to the weekly focus or theme. A toddler room doesn't need 30 page, word-dense paperbacks on science. They're only interested in finding pictures of things they know. When a two year old brings me a book like this, I ask them for a different book.

Children often bring me commercial books with their favourite characters. I strongly dislike most of these. The story is usually boring or too complicated to understand.

I do agree with Gaiman on one front. Fiction is a drug. An individual can read a book intended for infants and toddlers, full of made up words (I'm looking at you, Sandra Boynton) with such emotion and connection that the child will plead for more. The adult doesn't have to connect with the book. They're connecting with the child over the enjoyment of the book. That's one experience that I have not had as deeply, as I am not a parent.

Cheryl: You mentioned something about Goosebumps earlier on. My sister was a diehard Goosebumps fan. It got her into all kinds of reading later on in life. She's very much into the fantasy and sci-fi genre. My mom never understood her love for it. I guess she falls into the Gaiman category.

I was read to every night as a child, mostly silently kicking and screaming. I was good reader but had average comprehension skills. It wasn't until I found non-fiction (and some realistic fiction) that I started really liking reading. I've made an effort to make my board book and paperback collection a little more diverse because there's a lot of value and emotional regulation-themed books. Perhaps my future child will end up more like my sister.

Thank you, Alyssa, for reports from experience!

I'm especially gratified to hear support of non-fiction... too many ppl dismiss it as if it doesn't count, somehow. When's the last time a list of 'top ten beach reads' had non-fiction on it?

I will admit to enjoying books that would not be considered high art in any capacity as a child, but my policy is, hey, if so long as they're reading...

There will be plenty of time for the classics later. The desire for stuff like TV cartoon themed books will die away of its own accord as the kid ages. So, I'm between Gaiman and Lewis, but I swing closer to Lewis.

This is a very interesting topic for discussion. Though at first, I almost agree with C.S Lewis, I think Gaiman makes a point about encouraging children to read what interests them. Atleast they are reading. Of course it is important to make sure that the grammar is correct and so on and the content is age appropriate.

Lakshmi wrote: "This is a very interesting topic for discussion. Though at first, I almost agree with C.S Lewis, I think Gaiman makes a point about encouraging children to read what interests them. Atleast they ar..."

Unless a book is full of inadvertent bad grammar (the author generally not knowing how to write), narratives that use dialect and vernacular not only add colour, they can also be good teaching moments both culturally and linguistically.

Yes, intentional use of the ungrammatical and vernacular could be a whole 'nother topic of discussion. I'm reminded of some intense discussions I've seen about Junie B. Jones and the Stupid Smelly Bus and others in that series. Not to mention The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

If anyone wants to discuss further, I'd love to participate in a separate thread.

Cheryl wrote: "Yes, intentional use of the ungrammatical and vernacular could be a whole 'nother topic of discussion. I'm reminded of some intense discussions I've seen about [book:Junie B. Jones and the Stupid S..."

I would definitely be interested.

I'm inclined to favor quality like the classics over the mass produced pop culture books churned out to dovetail with whatever movies or toys are popular at the moment. However, I have just learned a valuable lesson. My younger nephew (5) has some learning issues and hasn't yet learned the alphabet but I think is aging out of simple picture books. I went to the library and grabbed a book I thought looked stupid Save Your Brains! Plants vs. Zombies? Ew. I know nephew loves zombies so I knew he would like the book. He loved it! His sister read it to him and then my dad read it. My dad said it was cute and they learned about plants.

My sister tried to tell me that she chose to read about vampires because she liked the cheesy factor and no she has no interest in Wuthering Heights or any other classic novel. She stopped reading when she got too old to be read to until she was pregnant with her first who is now 7. She said "At least I'm reading!"

I still refuse to buy Disney Princess books but if zombies are what my nephew wants to read about, I'll give him books about zombies so at least he's reading something or listening to something.

:smiles: I'm gonna have to check out a PvZ book for myself. ;)

Ha! I did it, I found a category of bad children's books!

I submit.... books about Native Americans written by people with limited knowledge. Books like, Knots on a Counting Rope where the people are depicted as Native Americans but the person illustrating apparently did no research.

Books about pilgrims like "The Itsy Bitsy Pilgrim" which incorrectly characterize both parties.

There are a ton of books about pilgrims which are not accurate particularly the ones that talk about Thanksgiving.

Jennifer wrote: "Ha! I did it, I found a category of bad children's books!

I submit.... books about Native Americans written by people with limited knowledge. Books like, Knots on a Counting Rope where the people..."

Oh yes, and sadly, there are still too too many such books, and not only older ones. And unfortunately, quite a number of them have won awards and have sadly for the most part glowingly positive reviews.

A Broken Flute: The Native Experience in Books for Children is eye- opening.

Manybooks wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "Ha! I did it, I found a category of bad children's books!

I submit.... books about Native Americans written by people with limited knowledge. Books like, Knots on a Counting Rope..."

I'm guilty of giving good reviews to books like "Julie of the Wolves" and " Island of the Blue Dolphins". Though I think Island of the Blue Dolphins is seen as less problematic.

I still think those books are okay to read for an adult reading through the Newbery's or maybe even for kids if the inaccurate portions are pointed out before reading. They probably don't belong in the classroom anymore though..

Jennifer wrote: "Manybooks wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "Ha! I did it, I found a category of bad children's books!

I submit.... books about Native Americans written by people with limited knowledge. Books like, Knots ..."

And Island of the Blue Dolphins and even Julie of the Wolves are older books, but what gets me is that even today, there are many contemporary examples of really bad cultural appropriation.