The Catholic Book Club discussion

2. Who is the mysterious old man who appears in all three sections of Canticle? What is his role in the novel?

In my opinion, this old man represents Judaism (or the Wandering Jew, if you want to call him that). He can also be considered to be Lazarus, who was risen from the dead by Christ and would never die again. Or both interpretations could refer to the same person. The author just leaves the question open.

Manuel wrote: "He can also be considered to be Lazarus, who was risen from the dead by Christ and would never die..."

In support of this view, the sign that the pilgrim writes on the stone in chapter 1 is made of the two Hebrew letters L-TZ, i.e. Latzar, his name. Also in the third part he is called Lazar openly.

Manuel wrote: "In my opinion, this old man represents Judaism (or the Wandering Jew, if you want to call him that). He can also be considered to be Lazarus, who was risen from the dead by Christ and would never d..."

In the edition that i have it with a foreward of Miquel Barceló (i do not think that he was the man of the dome :-)) he said that he could be inspired in the Wanderer Jew these the diferent names of the wanderer Jew upon spanish Wikipedia Ahasverus (this is the more common, at least it was the name that i have heard to the French writer Leon Bloy)
Buttadeu
Larry The Walker
Joseph Cartaphilus
Juan Wait in God
Alvarus Stevenson
Michob-Ader
Samuel Belibeth.
Ausero
Catafito
Samer or Samar:
The Wikipedia says that he is a parausistic figure, and he will appear in the end of days. Although it is very probable that my friend Alfonseca was right, at this momenti am in Fiat Lux, and they spoke about an eternal Jew who lived 3000-5000 years called Benjamin. It is curios but the main character of "The papers of Benjamin Benavides" by Leonardo Castellani also called Benjamin. WWith all Alfonseca knows very much the book i trust totally in his criterion, besides if the author called Lazarus (Lazarus will be his name :-)).

Jesus raised Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha, from the dead, but he certainly died again. It's impossible that a mere mortal would have experienced true resurrection before our Lord opened up the way! Nor do the dead continue to wander the earth and "haunt" or even inspire the living. That's pagan, not Christian thinking.

Fonch wrote: "at this moment I am in Fiat Lux, and they spoke about an eternal Jew who lived 3000-5000 years called Benjamin"

Yes, the old man has no name in Fiat Man, is called Benjamin in Fiat Lux and Lazar in Fiat Voluntas Tua. That is why I said that the author leaves the question open.

Jill wrote: Nor do the dead continue to wander the earth and "haunt" or even inspire the living.

Of course you are right, but it is not I who says that, but a child in the third part of the novel:

One of the children soon noticed the old tramp who stood across the roadway, and presently a shout went up: "Lookit, lookit! It's old Lazar! Auntie say, he be old Lazar, same one 'ut the Lor' Hesus raise up! Lookit! Lazar! Lazar!"... "Auntie say, what the Lor' Hesus raise up, it stay up! Lookit him! Ya! Still huntin' for the Lor' 'ut raise him. Auntie say--."

The interpretation of the mysterious old man changes along the novel. In the first part he is just mysterious (but uses the two Hebrew letters that seem to imply that his name is Lazar); in the second, he is Benjamin, the Wandering Jew, but his other name is Eleazar (another form of Lazar). In the third he is again Lazar, at least in the mind of the children, who mention that he cannot die because he had died once.

What did the author intend? He doesn't make it clear. I come back to my first comment on this question.

Jill wrote: "Jesus raised Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha, from the dead, but he certainly died again. It's impossible that a mere mortal would have experienced true resurrection before our Lord opened up t..."
I agree with Jill in this question, indeed Lazarus did not resurrect, he is revitalized, because this who coome back to the life he will die again. Revitalize can make, indeed Elisyum made in the old testament, and Saint Paul in the new Testament. The only who experiment a right resurrection is Jesus.
However we must recognize one thing this novel is fiction, and the author, while did not crash with the Theology can write everything.

One of the few things, who surprise me really much the few presence of the old man in the third part. There are not few relationship between the last Abbot and the old man, that in the last part Fiat voluntas Tuas is called Lazarus.

He is a fascinating character, with many pithy remarks. Some make him the quintessential Jew chiding Christians, e.g. The Book I gave you should have been enough (the Old Testament?). He is clearly waiting for the Messiah but is disappointed every time he looks into the face of a potential candidate. No reference to Jesus...

Jill wrote: "He is a fascinating character, with many pithy remarks. Some make him the quintessential Jew chiding Christians, e.g. The Book I gave you should have been enough (the Old Testament?). He is clearly..."

However i was surprised in the third bookfor his short role, and not only was short, besides it was irrelevant. It was more interesting the duel between the doctor and the last abbot of Saint Leibowitz.

Another fascinating character is the Poet or Fool.

Jill wrote: "Another fascinating character is the Poet or Fool."

Other thing that i do not understand. Why Miller Jr. close his chapter with the death of the poet?. This character did not do anything, except killing a soldier and stealing his water. It is a character that i reject inmediatly. It was more interesting the duel between the Abott Paul and Thon Thaddeo, or even the scientist monk.

Curious that by the third part, the Poet/Fool seems to be regarded as a martyr!

Jill wrote: "Curious that by the third part, the Poet/Fool seems to be regarded as a martyr!"

Martyr the poor soldier, whom the poet stole the water :-(.

Fonch wrote: "Jill wrote: "Curious that by the third part, the Poet/Fool seems to be regarded as a martyr!"

Martyr the poor soldier, whom the poet stole the water :-(."

I hardly think the soldier was a martyr, as he was murdering priests when the poet attacked him.

The old man is a reference to the legend of the Wandering Jew.

From Wikipedia: "The Wandering Jew is a mythical immortal man whose legend began to spread in Europe in the 13th century.

"The original legend concerns a Jew who taunted Jesus on the way to the Crucifixion and was then cursed to walk the earth until the Second Coming. The exact nature of the wanderer's indiscretion varies in different versions of the tale, as do aspects of his character; sometimes he is said to be a shoemaker or other tradesman, while sometimes he is the doorman at Pontius Pilate's estate."

In the second book, he approaches Thon Taddeo, grabs his arm and looks at him intently, but then turns away, saddened, "It's still not Him."

In reading what I have found about the Wandering Jew, I have not seen elsewhere that he has been identified with Lazarus. That might be a gloss added by Miller.

But I also wonder what he adds to the story.

John wrote: "I have not seen elsewhere that he has been identified with Lazarus. That might be a gloss added by Miller..."

The identification of the Wandering Jew and Lazarus was a gloss added by Miller, but the legend that Lazarus never died and is still somewhere on the Earth was not Miller's invention, it was older. In this web you can find a reference:
http://www.christianforumsite.com/thr...

And here (http://theconversation.com/what-is-de...) it says:
Jesus’s claim that “whosoever lives and believes in me will never die” has not always been interpreted as referring to Lazarus’s eternal life in heaven; some followers of Jesus seem to have believed that Lazarus was never to die a bodily death again after his resurrection.

Jill wrote: "He is clearly waiting for the Messiah but is disappointed every time he looks into the face of a potential candidate. No reference to Jesus... "

There is a clear reference to Jesus when the abbot asks the old man:

"So what are you looking for?"
"Someone who shouted at me once."
"Shouted?"
"Come forth!"

Funnily, he says this in the second part, where he's called Benjamin and not Lazar.