Reading the Church Fathers discussion

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2017-09-18

Question revised 2017-09-19, 2017-09-20

Question: What is Origen's teaching on the pre-existence of souls?

Nemo said: "To my mind, the question of preexistence of souls is related to the preexistence of Jesus, or the Divinity of Jesus, to be more precise. That's why I think it may be better to discuss the twofold meaning of pre-existence, i.e., before the body and before the Creation."

"souls" means primarily but not exclusively human souls

"teaching" refers to the content of his teaching but also what kind of authority or certitude he claims for his teaching.

On First Principles book 1 chapter 7 section 4 appears relevant.

"If the soul of a man, which is certainly inferior while it remains the soul of a man, was not formed along with his body, but is proved to have been implanted strictly from without, much more must this be the case with those living beings which are called heavenly. For, as regards man, how could the soul of him, viz., Jacob, who supplanted his brother in the womb, appear to be formed along with his body? Or how could his soul, or its images, be formed along with his body, who, while lying in his mother’s womb, was filled with the Holy Ghost? I refer to John leaping in his mother’s womb, and exulting because the voice of the salutation of Mary had come to the ears of his mother Elisabeth. How could his soul and its images be formed along with his body, who, before he was created in the womb, is said to be known to God, and was sanctified by Him before his birth?"

I have not verified I'm using the CCEL text. My biblio info as follows:

Origen. (1885). De Principiis. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), F. Crombie (Trans.), Fathers of the Third Century: Tertullian, Part Fourth; Minucius Felix; Commodian; Origen, Parts First and Second (Vol. 4, pp. 263–264). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

Clark wrote: "Question: In what way(s), if any, does Origen teach the pre-existence of souls?

"Pre-existence of souls" for now means a human being's soul exists before his or her body exists and is united with ..."

I thought the "pre-existence of souls" meant that souls are eternal and existed before the Creation, and that was the doctrine anathematized at the 5th Ecumenical Council.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf2...

I wasn't aware until now that the orthodox position seemed to be that a person's soul came into existence at the same time as his body.

Nemo said: "I wasn't aware until now that the orthodox position seemed to be that a person's soul came into existence at the same time as his body."

One reason I try to say things very clearly is so that my errors and misunderstandings are unambiguous. I succeeded! :-) I have revised the question statement.

[Nothing to see here. Move along, move along ...]

Clark wrote: "Nemo said: "I wasn't aware until now that the orthodox position seemed to be that a person's soul came into existence at the same time as his body."

One reason I try to say things very clearly is ..."

I wasn't saying that you made an error. I was honestly surprised, and confused, by the Wikipedia article which claims that is the orthodox Christian position. Since I didn't grow up within a Church tradition, I have no idea what is taught as orthodox.

I think this is his main argument: How could his soul and its images be formed along with his body, who, before he was created in the womb, is said to be known to God, and was sanctified by Him before his birth?
But I disagree with him :-o
(well, I am in good company, after all he was told off at this point)

He seems to start from the assumption that God cannot know something (a soul) before its creation. But really, how can God then know any future events? God knows everything beforehand, why does Origen seem to think that God didn't know our bodies before they were created.

It seems that Origen doesn't realize that God is outside time.

I will see if I can find any evidence of that, or to the contrary, in the text.

Ruth wrote: "...He seems to start from the assumption that God cannot know something (a soul) before its creation..."

I'm reminded of the trick question whether God can make a stone that He cannot lift...

I think perhaps Origen is saying that God cannot know something that has no being or existence whatsoever (either inside or outside of time). It is a logical impossibility. To be known by God, the souls must exist or have being in some manner.

Ruth said: "But I disagree with him :-o "

Yes. John of Damascus (early 8th century) said at one point: "Further, body and soul were formed at one and the same time, not first the one and then the other, as Origen so senselessly supposes."

Clark wrote: ".."before". So we need to clarify this term in the question..."

I understand "before the Creation" in the same sense as "before the foundation of the world" in the Scripture.

John 17:24
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

(NKJV. Emphasis added)

Origen writes in the preface to On First Principles:

But with respect to the soul, whether it is derived from the seed by a process of traducianism, so that the reason or substance of it may be considered as placed in the seminal particles of the body themselves, or whether it has any other beginning; and this beginning, itself, whether it be by birth or not, or whether bestowed upon the body from without or no, is not distinguished with sufficient clearness in the teaching of the Church

It was also my impression reading the Fathers so far: that the origin of the soul is not clearly defined and therefore there is room for diversity and dialogue.

Nemo said: "I understand "before the Creation" in the same sense as "before the foundation of the world" in the Scripture."

Since the question is again about pre-existence meaning before the creation of the body, not before the entire Creation, that post is no longer relevant.

Nemo said: "It was also my impression reading the Fathers so far: that the origin of the soul is not clearly defined and therefore there is room for diversity and dialogue."

This relates to "what kind of authority or certitude Origen claims for his teaching." That is, he deems the question of the pre-existence of the soul to be other than a revealed Scriptural proof or a definitive Church teaching. So he is free to explore as best he can.

Clark wrote: "Nemo said: "It was also my impression reading the Fathers so far: that the origin of the soul is not clearly defined and therefore there is room for diversity and dialogue."

This relates to "what ..."

Yes, in that same preface, Origen acknowledges the authority of the Scripture and the apostolic teachings, but he says neither of which speaks clearly or definitively on the origin of the soul, for it is spiritually discerned.

Nemo said: "To my mind, the question of preexistence of souls is related to the preexistence of Jesus, or the Divinity of Jesus, to be more precise. That's why I think it may be better to discuss the twofold meaning of pre-existence, i.e., before the body and before the Creation."

Does Origen see the two topics (pre-existence of Jesus and the pre-existence of human souls) as related?

Clark wrote: "Nemo said: "To my mind, the question of preexistence of souls is related to the preexistence of Jesus, or the Divinity of Jesus, to be more precise. That's why I think it may be better to discuss t..."

From Bk. I Ch. 2. On Christ

Origen writes about the prexistence of Christ and the existence of created things "prefigured" within Him as Wisdom of God.

since all the creative power of the coming creation was included in this very existence of Wisdom (whether of those things which have an original or of those which have a derived existence), having been formed beforehand and arranged by the power of foreknowledge; on account of these very creatures which had been described, as it were, and prefigured in Wisdom herself, does Wisdom say, in the words of Solomon, that she was created the beginning of the ways of God, inasmuch as she contained within herself either the beginnings, or forms, or species of all creation.

Nemo wrote: "Ruth wrote: "...He seems to start from the assumption that God cannot know something (a soul) before its creation..."

I'm reminded of the trick question whether God can make a stone that He cannot..."

"I think perhaps Origen is saying that God cannot know something that has no being or existence whatsoever (either inside or outside of time). It is a logical impossibility. To be known by God, the souls must exist or have being in some manner."

I have been trying to think about this...so, the angels have 'being' (outside of time) and we have 'being' (in time)...but I thought the soul was created at conception...so the soul would not have existed or had 'being' either inside or outside time as just discussed, except in the Mind of God...are we considering that still 'existing'? ...it would thus be different however than the 'beings' outside time such as the angels... does one consider being in the Mind of God, 'pre-existing'? Or is one counting only distinct beings outside of God (angels/us) as existing?
I think maybe message #19 speaks to this, but I don't really understand what it is saying.

Susan wrote: "does one consider being in the Mind of God, 'pre-existing'? Or is one counting only distinct beings outside of God (angels/us) as existing?..."

The Wisdom of God is Christ, who exists in every sense of the word. If some thing is in the Wisdom of God, it must exist in some manner. I think that is part of what Origen is saying. This is related to his argument about the foreknowledge of God, viz. for something to be known to God, that something must exist.

Nemo wrote: "Susan wrote: "does one consider being in the Mind of God, 'pre-existing'? Or is one counting only distinct beings outside of God (angels/us) as existing?..."

The Wisdom of God is Christ, who exist..."

Sorry, you know me...still a couple loose ends in my mind....
1) Jesus is the Wisdom of God? I thought of Him as the Word, as the expression of what God wants to say, but I don't think I thought of Jesus as the Wisdom of God...if His person incorporates the Wisdom, how do you see God the Father? Just the creative force? Or is there a different unique contribution of the first person of the Trinity?
2) yes, "it must exist", but by that are you conceding it may exist merely in the Mind of God, or it needs to be an actual 'being', trying to clarify how you mean 'exist'. Thanks.

Susan wrote: "1) Jesus is the Wisdom of God? "

That's what Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 1:24
"but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

you conceding it may exist merely in the Mind of God,

I wouldn't say exist "merely" in the mind of God. If God is the ultimate Reality, as Peter Kreeft once said, then what exists in the Mind of God is more real and actual than anything we can perceive as human beings.

Origen writes that the Trinity alone has being, and everything else derive their being from the Trinity. I've yet to see how he develops his line of thought.

Nemo wrote: "Susan wrote: "1) Jesus is the Wisdom of God? "

That's what Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 1:24
"but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Thanks for the verse. Just trying to wrap my head around the first person then...hmmm...if Christ is the power and wisdom of God....? And the third person I've heard described as the love generated between them...I can't really point my finger on how I would think about the first person...what do you think of when you think of the first person of the Trinity?

I don't mean merely, like meh, just differentiating it from a more specific entity of 'being'; I agree with what you wrote.

Bk. II. Ch. 2 On the Perpetuity of Bodily Nature

Origen speculates that mind and matter are created together by God, and have no separate existence that can be measured in time, sort of like the Trinity in that regard. And matter goes through all sorts of transformations, that is why we perceive various bodies in the present time.

So the answer to the question of "preexistence" seems quite different from what I expected: The soul does not "pre-exist", neither before the body, nor before the creation. Unless we think of bodies only as they appear to and disappear from our senses in the present time, in which case, the mind can be regarded as existing before that particular body, just as matter exists before the body.

On this topic some are wont to inquire whether, as the Father generates an uncreated Son, and brings forth a Holy Spirit, not as if He had no previous existence, but because the Father is the origin and source of the Son or Holy Spirit, and no anteriority or posteriority can be understood as existing in them; so also a similar kind of union or relationship can be understood as subsisting between rational natures and bodily matter.

If, however, it is impossible for this point to be at all maintained, viz., that any other nature than the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can live without a body, the necessity of logical reasoning compels us to understand that rational natures were indeed created at the beginning, but that material substance was separated from them only in thought and understanding, and appears to have been formed for them, or after them, and that they never have lived nor do live without it; for an incorporeal life will rightly be considered a prerogative of the Trinity alone.

therefore, that material substance of this world, possessing a nature admitting of all possible transformations, ... when it becomes the servant of more perfect and more blessed beings, it shines in the splendour of celestial bodies, and adorns either the angels of God or the sons of the resurrection with the clothing of a spiritual body, out of all which will be filled up the diverse and varying state of the one world.

Nemo wrote: "Bk. II. Ch. 2 On the Perpetuity of Bodily Nature

Origen speculates that mind and matter are created together by God, and have no separate existence that can be measured in time, sort of like the T..."

....I read that three times, and think I need twenty times more... thank you for posting