AfterEllen.com Book Club discussion

So? What did you think?

While the story started off a tad slow and dated, it definitely ended on a high note for me. The way Liza & Annie's past and present weaved together was magnificent. There were points where I got lost in the story and then Liza would attempt another letter to Annie; it was heart wrenching to see her struggling so much. Without giving away too much, I thought the ending was perfect. It was a great read and I’m glad I stuck with it.

I agree that the book felt dated. I also felt as if Annie and Liza were often portrayed as too innocent and sheltered. I had to keep reminding myself that they were 17 and not 10.

Once the relationship started in earnest, I think the confusion about feelings, emotions, and how to act on them was convincing. However, I did not like the "letter to Annie" format. It was too much foreshadowing to know they were no longer together. And the ending where they decided to be together was just not as fulfilling as I'd hoped. I think the main problem I had here was that they seemed simply to drift apart or something- quite honestly, I am not exactly sure why they were not together. If anything, I would think that being outed to everyone and getting your two favorite teachers fired would have been the strain on the relationship. But the farewell moment with the two teachers seemed almost cliche in it's feel-goodness.

And this leads me to another problem I had: the lesbians were fired. I know things were different and this was perhaps the most realistic aspect of the book: teachers being fired because of their sexual preference. It was a very ugly truth 30-40 years ago and unfortunately it still can be today. I think I wanted everyone to be more outraged that this happened. Not as "oh well, this is life" as they seemed to be. The teachers vowed to pick up and start over and gave the girls a little bit of plucky advice. But, it needed to be a bigger deal for me, I guess.

Because I understand how this was a ground-breaking YA novel for the LGBT community and lesbians, especially. And the girls ended up together, so it is technically a happy ending. But when you have this kind of audience and attention, you have to make a statement. I think the coming of age story and realizing you are homosexual is a good statement. But by throwing the situation with the lesbian teachers in, I think there needed to be a bigger statement made about inequality in work and social environments. An argument that homosexuality is not the perverseness that some characters claimed. I wanted the girls to fight for that, too.

I do recognize the book for what it did accomplish, but I guess I wanted so much more to happen. All in all, though, I'm glad we read another LGBT "classic" I would have never known about before this book club.

I'd really like to know what everyone means by "dated." Is it the lack of mobiles and e-mail?

Once, I read a book based in the late 19th century, and the heroine in it was looking for someone. I remember thinking, "Why doesn't she just look him up on Google?"

When I said that I felt Annie on My Mind is still relevant, I meant that its topicality is still believable today.

Lore- I agree Annie On My Mind is still relevant today. That is not what I was implying by stating it was dated.

I was using "dated" to mean that certain aspects of the characters, interactions and settings feel very specifically placed during a certain timeframe. In this case, the book feels very 1970s. Other books do this (on some level, they all do, obviously), but in this case, I felt that it was a bit annoying and rather cheesy.

Hopefully that clears up what I was trying to say.

I LOVE this book and cry every time I reread it. But "dated" is definitely the word, because -- and I said this on the website thread too -- the climax would happen so differently today.

Can you imagine a town holding a big Should We Fire Teachers for Being Gay? debate now? Well, yeah, because stuff like that still happens, but it's a media circus. There are entire corporations set up to protect and support people who are fired for their sexual orientation. Even if the firing were upheld (being a private school), the decision would be controversial and get a ton of press. There'd be petitions, anonymous electronic donations to the teachers, job offers from all over the country, plausible lawsuit options. Liza's and Annie's names would eventually get leaked by conservative organizations, who could then be sued for invading the privacy of minors. This ordeal couldn't remain the hush-hush town secret it does in the book, is what I'm saying.

I don't find most of the book dated at all, but each time I reach that part of the story, I remember when it was written. And I'm grateful, for the most part, to be living now instead of then.

I don't find most of the book dated at all, but each time I reach that part of the story, I remember when it was written.

When I read old books, I think this, too. Heck, when I watch gay films, I think this!

I'd like to explore this "dated" interpretation/conclusion a little more.

For instance, does this make you like the book less? If it does, are you then more inclined to read "modern" books?

Does dated material make you feel awkward? Or just annoyed? Or sorry for the writer that she didn't know any better at the time the story was written?

Argument: A book can't help when it was written.

Does this mean that you feel books are dated when they're classics? Austen is a good example, since a lot of people have read something by her. Are the social norms of Pride and Prejudice awkward and annoying? Or is it that Annie on My Mind offers a glimpse at a border between Modern and Historic? Modern: a couple of teenage girls in love trying to find a way to cope with being in love while simultaneously understanding the cultural significance of it. Historic: That our current society handles the situations of their cultural experiences so differently that we now see what they went through as being insignificant. (To us, maybe. To them, no.) The book's inability to cross into one or the other, Modern or Historic, makes it almost inaccessible.

This is really interesting to me, because I never consider books dated. I just take them for what they are and consider the time that they were written, or, if applicable, the time that the author wanted to draw into the atmosphere of her creation.

Excellent, thoughtful post, Lore!

Annemarie wrote: "Excellent, thoughtful post, Lore!"

Thanks! I hope I wasn't being annoying, it's just an avenue that I think is worth exploring. There's a lot of room for discussion here.

After talking it over with a friend last night, I reached a tentative conclusion that Annie on My Mind is stuck between the crevice of Modern and Historical. And it will probably be stuck for a long time. Allow me to explore this...

As Amy (folkpants) suggested, "certain aspects of the characters, interactions and settings feel very specifically placed during a certain timeframe".

This is true.

These interactions and settings of the characters are not specific enough to 1982 to find anything in it for us to connect to pop-culturally. There's no mention of popular television shows, bands, the phasing out of bell bottoms and disco... None of that. For us to read something that was written in 1982 without any added kitsch that would've promoted a sense of nostalgic warmth, it makes the book too distant.

What's funny is how its lacking pop-culture element may have helped propel its Classic status. In 1982, young women (presumably) could read the book and feel that they were living in their own time. In 1992, young women could read the book and feel that they were living close to their own time, since nothing in the book contradicts their own culture. There's no Madonna VS Nirvana, no Prince VS Alice in Chains (wow, I'd pay to see that, actually), and no Love Boat VS Northern Exposure. Annie on My Mind was able to leap across the decades because of its lacking culture.

Now, though, it's too far away and yet, sadly, too close.

I think that when the world gets a little further along with LGBT acceptance, then we might see Annie on My Mind transform from its awkward modernity to kitschy historical YA romance... It'll turn quaint, possibly even cute, because we would've transformed and propelled ourselves far enough away from its topics and customs.

Brings to mind the ending of Joanna Russ' "The Female Man" (a brilliant book, a strong influence on many others, including "Ammonite" and even my own novel), where she talks to her own book, saying:

"Go, little book... do not complain when at last you become quaint and old-fashioned, when you grow as outworn as the crinolines of a generation ago and are classed with 'Spicy Western Stories,' 'Elsie Dinsmore,' and 'The Son of the Sheik;' do not mutter angrily to yourself when young people read you to hrooch and hrch and guffaw, wondering what the dickens you were all about. Do not get glum when you are no longer understood, little book. Do not curse your fate. Do not reach up from readers' laps and punch the readers' noses. Rejoice, little book! For on that day, we will be free."

In other words, if a book seems dated, it's because we've made progress. And we have, in the last 30 years, at least in some locations in the world. Hurrah! Still, I hope we remember that there are many places, (e.g. Uganda, Russia, even our own South, outside our safe little LGBT enclaves) where it's still deeply dangerous to be out of the closet. "Annie On My Mind" is still very current in many areas.

I agree with Amy that Liza and Annie seemed far too naive for their age. Also the clothes, I know this makes me sound shallow, but I still have mental scars from wearing those horrible corduroy overalls.

Lore, I’ve answered your questions below.

"For instance, does this make you like the book less? If it does, are you then more inclined to read "modern" books?"
• It does neither. I appreciate books set in any time frame as long as the storyline is of interest to me. Some of my favorite stories are set in the past.

"Does dated material make you feel awkward? Or just annoyed? Or sorry for the writer that she didn't know any better at the time the story was written?"
• Sometimes it can be a little annoying (maybe aggravating is a better word), especially when dealing with human rights issues. Beyond that it can be very interesting to see another time and place. That being said, I don’t like books that avoid sexuality like it were the plague. If we were to believe our grandparents, no one in their generation ever had sex outside of marriage. I find that type of whitewashing annoying.

"Does this mean that you feel books are dated when they're classics? Austen is a good example, since a lot of people have read something by her. Are the social norms of Pride and Prejudice awkward and annoying? Or is it that Annie on My Mind offers a glimpse at a border between Modern and Historic? Modern: a couple of teenage girls in love trying to find a way to cope with being in love while simultaneously understanding the cultural significance of it. Historic: That our current society handles the situations of their cultural experiences so differently that we now see what they went through as being insignificant. (To us, maybe. To them, no.) The book's inability to cross into one or the other, Modern or Historic, makes it almost inaccessible."
• “Or is it that Annie on My Mind offers a glimpse at a border between Modern and Historic?” This is a perfect assessment of this book. It’s dated just enough that I can’t identify with a girl who doesn’t know what an orgasm is, and yet it’s not so dated that I can explain it away with the climate of the times it was written. This makes me wonder if Nancy Garden created these characters so her critics couldn’t dismiss Liza and Annie’s love as a result of promiscuity or bad parenting. Maybe she needed these girls to appeal to conservative parents while still be identifiable to teenage girls.

Even though it’s a tad dated, I still think this is a wonderful book and I donated my copy to a teenage homeless shelter so Liza & Annie’s story can continue.

Good quote, Annemarie! Thanks for adding it!

And thanks for your input, Samantha. Nice addition to the topic. Especially like your offerings as to why Garden wrote Liza and Annie a certain way. I'm sure she had difficulty getting the book published. (Haven't come across anything about that, only controversy after the book was out.) What an interesting thing an annotated edition would've been...

Well, it's nice to hear the book's been donated! Live on, L + A!