The F-word discussion

We will be reading Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's 2014 essay (manifesto?), We Should All Be Feminists.

This book has been on my To-Read list for so long now, so I'm excited to finally be able to read it. I've enjoyed what I've read by her so far, but I've only experienced mostly her fiction.

Has anyone already read this and want to start us off with some thoughts about the book? It's a short one, so I hope we're all able to participate in this read.

Do you agree with Adichie's thoughts in her essay? Is there anything that you don't necessarily agree with? Do you wish anything had been phrased differently?

How cool.

I bought a dozen copies of this little book a few months ago as giveaways for another group and I still have a half dozen copies.

"Men have more testosterone and are, in general, physically stronger than women" (page16)

(Random thoughts and mutterings)

So this is a personal perspective from someone who studied martial arts for 20+ years. I'm a 4th dan black belt in one martial art, a yudansha in a second and have experience in a couple of others.

One thing we sometimes talk about in the martial arts community is the importance of "timing, balance, distance, direction and flow" in a fight.

So looking at that list some will notice strength isn't mentioned. It's why great fighters look like they're not trying....because they literally aren't trying. They're not forcing a person to bend to their will, they just moving that person in a direction and when they resist in one direction a good fighter will simple start moving them in another direction.

What I will say about women is they are reticent to fight. They don't want to be angry. When I teach women self defence I spend more than one night trying to get them to try and hurt me. To throw punches with intent. To be willing to assert themselves.

But here's the thing. Women are that way because they have been taught to be that way. They've been taught from childhood to be meek...to not show their anger when they are passed over for a promotion. And the other thing I will say is that list of 5 things...women are equal to men in all of them and in two of them women tend to be better.

Women make great fighters but they need to learn that they make great fighters. And they need to fight on their own terms. A woman generally won't beat a man in a competition of strength. So don't fight men there. You fight where you're better.

Not sure where I heard this but Ruth Bader Ginsberg was once asked when she will be satisfied with female representation on the SCotUS.
She responded "When there are 9 female Justices.

Whoever it was was surprised and remarked about equality about there being an equal number of men and women. And her response was that from the very beginning there have been 9 men and nobody talked about equality.

I'm impressed with this little book. Strangely I'm actually glad that I read the paperback version...it felt right for the book...like a book of poetry is more enjoyable if you read a physical copy.

The thing that most impresses me is Adichie is sympathetic and convincing. I remember during the election last year seeing this female Trump supporter. She was wearing a t-shirt that read "Trump Can Grab My P–ssy". Being totally honest, I just dismissed her as an idiot and a lost cause...the thing is, someone like Adichie could meet her. She could listen to her concerns and I imagine she could find common ground. She can change minds.

And that's why I gave this book 5 Stars. She's not trying to smash down the front door of folks...she's quietly walking around the back, slipping inside and making them a cup of tea and before they know it, they've changed their minds.

I agree with Ian. The strength of this little book is that she presents her argument in a well-articulated and personal way. In an era of (men) calling feminists "feminazis", Adichie's voice seems to be soothing - while still carrying across her point.

I was very interested in reading her experiences in Nigeria, because while they highlight some cultural differences, there seem to be more similarities to western culture han one might have thought.

From a theoretical perspective she didn't go far enough for my taste. I understand that she's bringing it back to the fundamentals here, but as someone who is already convinced that women deserve to be equals to men, I felt there was little new to learn here.

Fantastic little book though.

I read this book a few years ago and felt utterly marginalised by it. As I recall, the author takes as her starting point that all women are attracted to men. As a lesbian, I found this beyond ridiculous. It was insulting, ignorant, and wrong.

I also really enjoyed it and also agree that it is unique to her perspective. It is definitely her idea and opinion of feminism and she doesn't necessarily go out of her way to be inclusive. It is a short little read and easy though. I remember thinking that I didn't agree with her passivity, I haven't read this in a couple of years now so perhaps I should revisit it before I make any solid statements though! She gave off a steady and calm vibe that made me think of RBG.

Natasha (Diarist) wrote: "As I recall, the author takes as her starting point that all women are attracted to men."

I didn't notice that. I might reread it with that in mind.

just read this in one of my friends feeds (Dan Wiencek) I thought it was really good so I want to share.


Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn
“Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, shit on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.

Men actually think this girl exists. Maybe they’re fooled because so many women are willing to pretend to be this girl. For a long time Cool Girl offended me. I used to see men – friends, coworkers, strangers – giddy over these awful pretender women, and I’d want to sit these men down and calmly say: You are not dating a woman, you are dating a woman who has watched too many movies written by socially awkward men who’d like to believe that this kind of woman exists and might kiss them. I’d want to grab the poor guy by his lapels or messenger bag and say: The bitch doesn’t really love chili dogs that much – no one loves chili dogs that much! And the Cool Girls are even more pathetic: They’re not even pretending to be the woman they want to be, they’re pretending to be the woman a man wants them to be. Oh, and if you’re not a Cool Girl, I beg you not to believe that your man doesn’t want the Cool Girl. It may be a slightly different version – maybe he’s a vegetarian, so Cool Girl loves seitan and is great with dogs; or maybe he’s a hipster artist, so Cool Girl is a tattooed, bespectacled nerd who loves comics. There are variations to the window dressing, but believe me, he wants Cool Girl, who is basically the girl who likes every fucking thing he likes and doesn’t ever complain. (How do you know you’re not Cool Girl? Because he says things like: “I like strong women.” If he says that to you, he will at some point fuck someone else. Because “I like strong women” is code for “I hate strong women.”)”

Herman wrote: “I like strong women.” If he says that to you, he will at some point fuck someone else. Because “I like strong women” is code for “I hate strong women.”

To me that is worrying. I personally disagree because if I don't we are really well and trully f__ked.

I'm sure I'm sexist...I think all men are on some level. A friend made me dinner a few months ago and we were just sitting down, drinking very dry martinis and chatting. She said something and without even realising it (at first) I talked right over her. Gemma is a ferocious woman. She's my equal in every way in martial arts and even though I outweigh her she is able to bring down a world of hurt on me.
So she's outspoken and ferocious and yes she's a strong woman. But want to know when I realised what I'd done? When I spoke over her, she went quiet and accepted it. That's not who I want to be and I apologised and shut up....but obviously I'm sexist.

But I don't just like strong women. I love them. I love women who are better than me....and hanging with them makes me a better person. I think misogyny is sadly very common. Men who don't like strong assertive ferocious women don't need to pretend they like them.

More to say, but I need to think about it more so that will do for now.

Valid points, both Herman and Ian. But do keep in mind that Gone Girl is a work of fiction and the character those words came from is an unreliable narrator at best. I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with them. I love that it provides food for thought, however.

As far as the Adichie essay, I was able to get a copy from the campus library at the university where I work. I knew it was short, but didn't realize how short until I held it in my hand.

If I ever get a real lunch break again, I can probably read it over one or two of them.

Natasha (Diarist) wrote: "I read this book a few years ago and felt utterly marginalised by it. As I recall, the author takes as her starting point that all women are attracted to men."

Yikes, yes, this is problematic.

I read this on my commute to work this morning - it was just the perfect length for the ride.

Celine wrote: "From a theoretical perspective she didn't go far enough for my taste. I understand that she's bringing it back to the fundamentals here, but as someone who is already convinced that women deserve to be equals to men, I felt there was little new to learn here."

I agree with this. I appreciate what she wrote, though also agree with Natasha that it could should have been less heteronormative. She even wrote at one point something about the loss of virginity can only be accomplished by the union of "opposite genders". :/

Does anyone remember which book we read that talked about the concept of "opposite" sexes, and how problematic that is? I know it came up in something, but off the top of my head I'm drawing a blank which book it was. Now anytime I see or hear "opposite sexes/genders", I have a real knee-jerk reaction to it.

Otherwise, while I agree with most of what she said because I agree with all the issues she addresses (though wish she had been more inclusive in the way she addressed them), I don't feel like I got as much out of this as I might have otherwise. I know I seem to say this a lot with the books we read, but this was definitely too fundamental.

It also felt like this is stuff that so many people have been saying for so long, and it's only now that anyone is even listening? I don't know where I'm going with that, but it's crazy to me that people read this book and a lightbulb finally goes off. Like, where have they been all of this time??

On the other hand, if it's one essay that makes people wake up and smell the coffee, then so be it. I just wish people were listening and acting before feminist became such a "buzzword".

ETA: The "opposite sex" discussion came up in Lisa Diamond's 2008 book, Sexual Fluidity: Understanding Women's Love and Desire, which we read in 2016. I had to look it up for my review of Adichie's essay, so wanted to bop back in here and include that in case anyone wanted to follow-up on that one.

I read this yesterday. I had already seen the TED talk on which the book is based and had expected the book to go beyond the talk, but it really didn't. In both I appreciated the cross-cultural/global perspective but didn't hear anything new. I had hoped this would be a book to buy and share but will just share the TED talk link instead.

https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_...

She has a new collection on feminism, but I think I'll stick to her fiction, which is amazing. She has a marvelous voice, both spoken and in print.

Thanks, Natasha, for adding your views on this!

I thought that was interesting, because one of the things that I got out of this book was that we need to stop raising our children differently based on sex. There are so many gender differences we teach to our kids that are just plain wrong. Because the way we separate the sexes ties into our culture. Teaching girls shame while we teach boys aggression is a huge disservice to them and to our future. Teaching boys sex is good and girls that sex is bad is an awful, awful thing.

I like that the author notes:

If we do something over and over, it becomes normal. If we see the same thing over and over, it becomes normal.

I think this may be at the heart of misogyny, racism, homophobia, and every other inequality and every other hate.

But if queer women feel excluded from this essay, it kind of blasts that quote. I need to read it again, too.

But I like that the author is getting at the oppression of women. That, for centuries, women have been excluded and oppressed. And that is something that has to be reversed. It's a shame that some women will feel excluded from this essay.